Undergrad Univ

[Guest MikeD]

As a Waterloo Systems Design Eng I feel obliged to reply despite my very "anti-engineering" attitude I'm famous to my friends for.

 

First in response to why engineers from Waterloo think they're better than other engineers:

The only good way I can think of to compare a program's difficulty is to look at two simple numbers...what was the OAC entrance average of the people coming in and what was the cumulative university program average of those same people coming out.

 

Sure this doesn't account for those who slacked in only one of either high school or university, but there's not really another way that I can think of to do this. People from Waterloo think they're better because the OAC entrance averages are so high. For example, I think the OAC average of the students in my class was around 94 with a small deviation. The average engineering course average for us hovers around 70-75, for a difference of about 20. In my opinion, if a school accepts people with an 85 average and produces a university class average of the 65, then our programs are comparable in difficulty. When someone from Waterloo says they're better, they probably have nothing to base it on other than the OAC entrance average, which is really just half the picture.

 

In response to why engineers typically feel dominant over other faculties...that's another monster altogether. I've always felt everyone has their strengths, and these strengths aren't always comparable. Who's to say an engineer's skills in logic is somehow superior to the skill it takes a biology student to absorb massive quantities of info? Apples and oranges I think. However, I can attest first hand that engineers typically have bigger workloads and spend a whole tonne of hours sitting in a computer lab getting something to work, which might serve to help that superiority complex I've gotten sick of (and I'm part of the faculty).

[Guest dogeatdog12]

Calculus isn't calculus. Imagine if you took Calculus at seneca would it be the same as taking calculus at Waterloo? As much as derivatives don't change, the students are differents, as are the expectations.

 

just some food for thought.

[Guest peachy]

MikeD, I take your point, and I think it's valid sometimes, but I don't think you can just compare the averages. In my experience, having studied both in engineering at U of T, and in science at York, the distribution of grades tends to be quite different. At U of T, there were lots of people doing poorly, and there were lots of people doing well. They curved our grades at the end to make sure that they were brought up to an acceptable average, and that result in a ton of people getting 90+ grades. At York, there tended to be far fewer people in my courses getting the very top grades. I think that it's probably easier to get a B in a course with weaker students in general (depending largely on the prof, etc), but that that doesn't necessarily translate into making it easier to get med-school-level-grades. YMMV, of course.

 

Another way of putting it is that, yes, the average to get in is lower in some schools and some programs. But there is a group of top students EVERYWHERE, competing for those top grades, whether they went to a school because it was cheaper, closer to home, better facilities, or whatever. The incoming average hides that fact.

 

Also a good point about calculus isn't calculus wrt community colleges. We also have an introductory course at York that isn't at the first-year calculus level for people without OAC, that I bet would be similar to college-level calculus. But standard first-year-university calculus from a standard textbook is quite ... standardized, I think.

[Guest MikeD]

I agree Peachy...There isn't an easy way to equate students from different schools. The MCAT tries to do this...but it's one test on one day. Not truly representative I think.

 

However, I've always felt that the last time everyone was on a reasonably similar playing field was in high school. Here we all had the same ten or so OAC courses to choose from (for Ontario people at least). In addition, we were placed in classes where the future whole university population was included, not just people bound for our respective faculties. Sure schools vary, but using high school grades to compare students is in my opinion more fair than using purely university grades.

 

A 90's high school student placed in a university class with 70's high school students should ideally place among the top few percent (a mark >90). A 90's high school student placed in class with 90's high school students would most likely fall in the middle gap somewhere...the 70-80 range, provided marks are normally distributed.

 

Am I hanging on to my high school glory days?...Probably. But I do think if you are med-school bound some programs are wiser choices than others.

[Guest peachy]

A 90's high school student placed in a university class with 70's high school students should ideally place among the top few percent (a mark >90). A 90's high school student placed in class with 90's high school students would most likely fall in the middle gap somewhere...the 70-80 range, provided marks are normally distributed.

Sometimes. But I just don't think marks are normally distributed. At least, they weren't in my courses. I took LOTS of classes where there was one or two marks above 90 given out. So what would happen, very often, is that there were a large number of very poor students battling to get C's or B's. Like I said, I would agree that it's easier to get a B, say, if you have a class of weaker students - they can't fail everybody (usually ).

 

But then there are a handful of students who were 90+ in high school, and COULD have done engsci or systems or whatever, but chose not to. And that handful of students is battling for the very top grades - and unless you have a prof who is willing to give everybody a top grade, it isn't necessarily easier to get the 90+. And for applying to medicine, it really isn't going to help you much if it's easier to get a B because that's not going to get you in anyways.

 

I feel quite confident in saying that I had many classmates at York who were VERY bright that could have succeeded very well in a program known for being super-tough (and indeed, there are people I graduated with at grad school at MIT, med school at Stanford, etc, who are doing just great there), and chose to go to York for whatever reason. There are many good students at every university!

 

Of course, it depends on the course. If the prof is willing to give out a dozen A+'s, then yeah, it'll be easier. If you are the only reasonably good student in your class then again, yeah, it'll be easier. But those things just don't happen all that often.

[Guest MikeD]

I think we're on the same page, but just one last thing.

 

Even if marks are not normally distributed, don't you think that a 90+ high school student, in a class with a small handful of 90+ high school students, has a better chance of getting top grades than a student in a class filled with top people vying for the top grades?

 

Looking at the OAC entrance average lets a top student know what the "competition" is like...and really a top grade means you were "wiser" or "smarter" than your classmates according to your prof.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Totally depends on what High School you went, and which teachers you had at that high school. I think there is way more variability in High School marks then in University marks, which our current discussion is about.

 

I went to a pretty solid high school in Ottawa drawing from a fairly well to do area, meaning most of the kids had pretty smart parents who were supportive both in terms of encouraging success at school and making it possible. Marks were not easily come by, and I actually found many of first year university courses EASIER than my OAC courses. On the other hand, I remember one of my buddies not doing all that well in the first 4 years of HS - essentially low to mid 70s. For OAC he transferred to another school, which was in a lower income area and wasn't known for academics - and they weren't used to having all that many students aiming for university. The average on his top six OACs ended up as a 96. I think he did reasonably well in University, but I don't think he continued to get 96s. Last I knew after undergrad, he was studying education at Lakehead. (That is in no means supposed to be a compliment or slight about education at Lakehead. . . one of my best friends did his BEd there.)

 

I remember meeting a sig number of students in first year who had been "the top student" at a school that didn't send kids to University often, and when they did they were often ecstatic enough that someone was that motivated (and might have a chance at a scholarship) that the marks came easily.

 

On the other hand, I also knew students from that exact same background who did extremely well because they were able to adapt to the jump to university and for whatever reason were motivated to do well and did the work to adapt.

 

Oh yeah, and even within MY High School a lot depended on which teachers you drew for your OAC courses. A few still gave 90s out like candy, whereas others treated a 90 it was gold and they were scrooge.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't automatically assume someone who had a >95% in HS would have better grades than someone with an 80%. It depends on a few factors.

[Guest PerfectMoment]

but i don't see much correlation between HS marks and university marks. many of my friends who worked their butts off in HS and attained 90+ averages are really struggling to adjust to the different pace of university. the lack of structure and teachers babying them in alot of the courses is really hurting them, and maybe they'll be able to adjust soon. i dunno. but many of my friends who didn't care about HS and had fun, did allthe normal HS stuff, didn't study, cut class, got 60-70s, did not get scholarships, etc, are now doing well in university. they've applied themselves aand are adjusting well.

 

obviously there are exceptions to both. there will always be the 90+ HS avg kids gteting 85+ in university, and the >70 HS avg kids getting D's and F's in university, but it just seems that their own money is on the line, people are much more willing to give it their all.