Pharmacy as a stepping stone to Meds?

[Guest FastEddy]

Phew! Winter Break at last! No more exams for at least a month and late nights of coffee stimulated studying are over for a time. In fact, I was just at my dentist today having coffee stains removed ..

Anyway, he mentioned that getting into pharmacy and then after 1 or 2 years applying to meds would be the smartest way to get into medicine. He reasoned that pharmacology is much more important to medicine than, say, what I'm studing now, biology. What do you think about that, peoples? And slightly more importantly, what do you think admissions peeps will think of that? Can it be done!? Ta.

-E

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

It definitely can be done since there are a number of Pharmacy-trained MDs out there. However, I'm not sure that it may be one of the most effective ways of making one's way to medical school, especially if a fairly deep concentration in pharmaceutical sciences may not be what interests you.

 

Aside from marking the final exams, I have just wrapped up my role as a teaching assistant to 130 first year UofT Pharmacy students in their statistics course. During the past four months, I've chatted with a good number of my students about their other courses, exams and life in general. Many of them profess to having one heck of a timetable of courses. This year, this included organic chemistry, physical chemistry, statistics, and an additional, more specialized course in organic chemistry (many with lab components), in addition to a number of others. Many of the students found the schedule to be pretty tough and some seemed significantly and chronically stressed. One student, for example, who wishes to enter medical school, was in tears numerous times and physically sick with worry about her pre-medical performance. It was a shame. Lastly, (and I won't go into detail about the academic performance of the class), these stresses and demands may be factors that greatly impact performance.

 

I don't mean to scare you, but if you're interested in an education in Pharmacy, akin to some students who investigate completing an M.Sc. to pave their way to medical school, do make sure it's the right route for you. The last thing you need is to undermine your chances of entering medical school in a program that may be less than optimal for your tastes and talents.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest strider2004]

Your dentist is probably right. I know some phamacists in med school who know much more about drugs than any internist ever would. If you want to go into a drug-based specialty, then pharmacy would be a great idea. You at a huge advantage because you already know the interactions, metabolic processes, etc. However, pharmacy is a tough field so marks-wise, it's not the easiest path.

[Guest batman]

just my opinion, but there is no best way, or smarter way. Plus, it doesn't really matter what you did in undergrad - you'll learn all you need to know, and more, and your background won't really matter. There's people from all across the board in our class - engineers, arts, law, etc. (as with most other med schools). If you happen to know more pharmacology, you'll have to work a bit harder in pathology, anatomy etc., so really you're no better off - it all balances out. (but then again, Strider knows quite a bit more than I do about this, so my opinion may be slightly misinformed)

 

As if you don't hear it enough, do what you enjoy. I did a double major in bio (physiology) and visual art for undergrad, and I'm doing more than fine in meds.

 

(Not to be harsh, but you're taking med school advice from a dentist? come on...:rolleyes )

[Guest LestatZinnie]

i don't see anything wrong with taking the advice from the dentist. even optometrists for that matter can see that pharmacology or pharmacy has more relevance to medicine than biology. The biology I've encountered so far in med school is trivial and a biology degree is less useful if you don't get in.

 

just the humble of opinion of a future dentist

[Guest seedstrike]

Hey,

 

We have a pharmacist in our first year class; point is that pharmacists do get in to medschool.

 

I don't think there's any degree that you can do that will guarantee you acceptance to med school, let alone improve your chances over others. My class is a mix of people of all backgrounds, be it Literature, Music, Comp Sci, Engineering and yes, even biology.

 

Once you get into Med School, I'm sure you will have an easier time than the rest of the class during Pharm lectures. But then there will always be someone else in the class who will be better than you in some other subject, say Biochem because he did a Ph.D in it. So doing a Parm degree won't necessarily give you an advantage in this respect either

 

I did a 4yr degree in General Biology and then did a 3-yr undergrad degree in something completely unrelated to medicine. I still got in.

 

My advice is do something you like and something you know you can do fairly well in. In the end, your GPA might be the most important thing in getting to the interview stage.

[Guest FastEddy]

WOw... great replies.. thanks a lot. what I've learned-

--it doesn't matter what your educated in so long as GPA is up

--pharmacy is difficult

--don't trust dentists.. (j/k Zinnie!)actually my hygenist mentioned the rivalry and how b/c medical doctors don't like to visit the denstist they usually come in with really horrible teeth!

 

I'm sure that I can do better grades-wise where I am now at UNBC with Biology than where I would be (UBC) with Pharmacy. Yet the situation is complicated when I take into consideration the job opportunities that the different studies create.. I can imagine finishing my bio degree and then standing there like... "now what?" mmmmmMajor decisions!!

[Guest Steve U of T]

"Anyway, he mentioned that getting into pharmacy and then after 1 or 2 years applying to meds would be the smartest way to get into medicine."

 

I don't see the point of going through the stress of applying to pharmacy if you don't even plan to finish the degree.

 

If you think general biology won't be relevant to your medical education (and you don't enjoy it very much), you may consider switching to a more specialized program, if your school offers it.

 

I'm in U of T in the physiology specialist program, and I am sure it is providing at least some useful background knowledge that will help me early in med school. Last summer, my research supervisor invited me to a talk he was giving to 2 med students (between 1st and 2nd year, one from UWO, one from Ottawa) on peripheral vascular disease. Because of my background in physiology, I had no trouble keeping up, and I even knew some things the med students didn't. They were shocked when we were going through risk factors for atherosclerosis, and I mentioned hypertension, which is number 2 after smoking. My point is, there are usual undergraduate programs of study (i.e. not second-entry programs) that may provide you with some useful preparation for medicine (although this knowledge is neither necessary nor sufficient to get you through med school).

 

Of course, there are a whole variety of basic medical sciences you can study at the undergraduate level (at least at U of T), such as pharmacology (different from pharmacy), biochemistry, immunology, pathobiology, anatomy, etc. By going through 1 or 2 years of pharmacy, I doubt you would learn anything particularly useful for medical school. Probably just some basic pharmacology, intermediate chemistry, basic physiology. Like most programs, I would assume you learn the good stuff in 3rd and 4th year, so unless you plan on finishing the pharmacy degree, I don't think it would be beneficial. You should study what interests you. If you want to get into medical sciences early, go ahead, but keep in mind, whatever program you get into, you won't learn much in the first year or two, since those generally provide the background knowledge you need for the final years, where you start to learn useful things.

 

As everyone else will say, just study whatever interests you.

[Guest FastEddy]

Thanks Steve.

I would love to get in on a more specialized degree than the general bio im doing now its just that UNBC doesn't have anything else close.. a Biochem Major is in the works to be approved for next year which I have my eye on, but apart from that :| I do love bio though and am fascinated by what we've covered so far but I can't help but think about what sort of back-up plan my undergrad degree can offer. I chose UNBC so that I can stand out and excel in a smaller pool of students. After one semester I'm doing just that.. I am sure that I could do OK in pharm, but then its a much larger school, and I wouldn't be so close to the rim of the bell-curve.... it may be worth my while to stick it out here.

[Guest kellyl20]

Two years ago, 2 pharmacy students from UBC got into med ie after 1 yr of general science and 2 yrs of pharmacy. One was accepted into UBC med and the other one had multi acceptances across Canada. Both are doing well in med 2. Pharmacy was their back up plan; their parents are dentists! So, it can be done.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

Regarding the undergraduate Pharmacy curriculum (at least at UofT) the initial years do seem decently relevant to medicine, i.e., it's not all biomolecular chemisty, as follows:

 

The four-year curriculum is structured in a carefully sequenced series of courses. Foundation courses in the basic/medical sciences include Organic and Physical Chemistry, Human Anatomy and Physiology, Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Pharmacology, Toxicology, Microbiology, and Medicinal Chemistry. Specialized professional practice courses, unique to the Pharmacy program at U of T, are integrated throughout the program, as are courses in Social and Administrative Pharmacy. Students spend the last half of the final year of the program in both community and institutional practices throughout Ontario where, under the tutelage of leading-edge pharmacists called Teaching Associates, they undertake the Structured Practical Experience Program (SPEP).

 

UofT undergraduate Pharmacy curriculum

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest cutieyellow]

Ok, here's the deal: I finished up a degree in Biochemistry, applied into medicine and what seems like an eternity in vicious waitlists, i was finally refused. I needed a plan... a plan B - was it going to be a Ph.D. in Experimental Med (Mcgill has an awesome program btw -shameless plug) or was it going to be a job in my field or was it going to be Pharmacy school. Finally, i decided that if Medicine was never to work out, i didn't want to do research for the rest of my life. And i knew i wanted more than just a biochem degree. So i decided to start Pharmacy.

 

Being a pharmacist for the rest of my life seemed reasonable and it did involve helping patients, interacting with other health professionals. I thought it was awesome, considering of course that i don't get into med. So I did one year of Pharmacy. I can tell you that it's one of the hardest programs out there (a lot harder than my first semester med as a matter of fact!) and it's true that it's difficult to get higher grades than in a biology program. But med schools take it into consideration that you're in a harder program and they factor that in. My GPA after my Undergrad was around 3.8. My GPA in pharmacy was 3.4 (after one semester, pulled it up to 3.6 in the end but application only considered first sem). And they factored it in, pulled and play a few numbers here and there and my overall GRADES were actually HIGHER than last yr.

 

So i got in last september, started medical school and am thoroughly happy (well, after tomorrow's last final i will be). This is just one success story i guess, but i do know that pharmacy is a great stepping stone. If you're willing to put in the effort of course. :rollin And in the end, if you're unlucky, pharmacy is not too bad of a job

 

Good Luck!

 

CY

[Guest thesaug]

Hi,

 

Do medschools really take into account how "hard" your program is in comparison to others? What type of criteria do they use then...work load, type of material...??? I have been under the impression that this was never a factor.

 

I myself am an engineering student, but I dont think that the med schools here will make the decision that my program was "harder" than other programs. I know for a fact that UWO does not...as the admissions rep told me. Although I have a large work load and an extra course to take every semester, I think programs in other faculties are just as hard but in other ways.

 

Anyways, if anyone knows the answer to this, it would be great to know.

 

thesaug

[Guest moo]

Some schools probably do take into consideration how hard your courseload is but I doubt they pay attention to the major. What's to say engineering is more difficult than English? I majored in math and physics and a lot of people give me this wow you must be smart look but to tell you the truth, these subjects are really easy for me. If I majored in English I woulda gotten a much lower GPA.

[Guest Kirsteen]

Hi there,

 

I have seen evidence only once of a school taking a "difficult" academic program into consideration. (Which doesn't mean that other schools with less transparent admissions processes don't do it in some form or another. ) This was in the form of a tickbox that appeared on the final collation form that is reviewed by the Admissions Committee. I have no idea how "difficult" programs are identified by this school, but it did not appear that the difficulty of the program had the ability to influence marks; rather it seemed that this factor may have been used in some sort of tie-breaking situation between two equally competitive applicants.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

[Guest UWOMED2005]

I think pharmacy would be a great academic background for medicine. I did fairly well in Pharmacology yet still wish I knew more than the one full year course I received in medical school. This would particularly be true for any medical specialty, but you need to know your drugs for surgery as well. And having done a more traditional B Sc premed (Biochem + Microbiology) I can tell you that yeah, most of the premed courses I took weren't anywhere as useful as I thought they'd be, and certainly not as useful as pharmacy might have been.

 

The only reservation I'd have for choosing to study pharmacy is one already touched upon: difficulty. From my brief experience with professional programs (my brother's experiences with Engineering, friends in Pharmacy and MBA programs, my own experiences in Medicine) the attitude in these programs is often that if you can pass these programs you're competent to practice the profession, so that any grade you get beyond that is just gravy. It's often much harder to get the 80%/A- '+' marks you need for medicine in professional programs than in more academic BSc or BA programs.

 

Not that I'd ever discourage someone from doing something because it was a challenge. I certainly would never suggest someone try to take the easiest route to medicine. But it's something to think about.

[Guest cutieyellow]

Well, it might not be the case across the rest of Canada, but in Quebec, at least, the French schools, do take into consideration what program you're from. They multiply your grades by a certain factor depending from what program you were in. Now, you're right, who is to say that engineering is harder than English... The way they do it here is that they look at the difficulty of entering the program, the workload. Therefore, anything that is highly difficult to get into, ie Dentistry, Physiotherapy, Pharmacy gets a higher boost in the calculation of the GPA. Now all it does really is boost the GPA in some way or another, but once that grade has been boosted/changed, they won't look at your program anymore. This is also the case for other programs, let's say 'easier' ones, the grades are lowered. It's all taken into consideration here.

 

I guess it depends on the schools and the way they function. I just know that it's looked upon very favourably and that the grades are multiplied by a certain factor in order for them to put everyone on the same level.

[Guest druggist]

Hello out there,

 

Well, Im currently in third year pharmacy, which I entered after one year of (not that hard work) earning a high GPA in science (the basic courses, chem, bio, calc, etc.). Pharmacy certainly is, as others have said, a very hard program to earn high GPA scores if you wish to go on. My friends who are in fourth year biochem study half as much as I do, dont have to stay up half the night, and have more time to enjoy other aspects of academic life, while making great GPA scores. As far as just taking a course in Pharmacology in undergrad (some universities offer this usually as a 4th or 3rd year biochem course), this basically focuses more on the pharmacodynamic aspects of drugs, and waves away the other parts we have to learn. In a pharm program, each drug must be learned about to exhaustion: absorption, distribution, elimination, and factors affecting these processes, therapeutic use--both theoretical and practical, rational dosing and modification of dosing depending on organ failure or administration of interacting xenobiotics, structure activity relationships, side effects and treatment of side effects, when side effects will occur (TIME), and when to modify therapy, advantages of one over another and hell... the list is long, we get it at the start of every course. Pharmacy degress also require knowledge of natural health products in the same depth, along with requiring you to remember this knowledge in SUBSEQUENT courses, meaning that in depth knowledge is expected to be kept somewhere in the back of our mind, while learning about new drugs, pharmacokinetics courses, new pathophysiologic states and of course learning diagnoses, tests, and evidence based medicine.

Im not trying to discourage anyone from taking a pharm degree, because I love it, and think it is the most interesting premed degree I could have taken, and also one that allows me to work in a hospital should I not gain immediate acceptance to meds. Taking the degree as a stepping stone would not really teach you anything about pharmacology, pharmacotherapeutics, or kinetics though, as mostly all the knowledge that would be beneficial is learned is 3rd and 4th year, including courses on cardiology, pain, rheumatism, endocrinology, womens health, cancer etc. while 2nd year usually offers things like GI disorders and eye/ear, and lets face it, how hard is ranitidine (Zantac) to understand (for people who have been exposed at least to a bit of pharmacodynamics).

Cheers

Druggist

[Guest Spencer]

Hey Eddy and all,

 

I would encourage everyone to please refer to one of my previous posts at which time I had consulted the forum users on the matter of undergrad stepping stones, the undergrad institution you attended and undergrad marks.

 

pub125.ezboard.com/fpreme...=373.topic

 

I think in the end...although it has been bludgeoned into your psyche...the major theme that underlies all of these responses is that irrespective of difficulty of the program you are in you must above all else be able ENJOY what you are doing. Only when you are truly interested and enjoying what you do will you have motivation to do well in it. It's 3-4 years of life in undergrad...time you will never get back...might as well enjoy it by doing an undergraduate degree that suits your taste rather than wallow in self-pity when you realize that the program you are in was definitely not cut for your interests.