Icebreaker

[Guest ploughboy]

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Gosh it's quiet in here! Either there's nobody around or we're all standing with our backs against the wall, nervously sipping our drinks and avoiding eye contact. Well, somebody has to break the ice. Allow me to introduce myself...

 

I'm a nontraditional applicant with almost seven years R&D experience at a certain nameless high-tech company that has seen over 90% of its market cap evaporate over the last year. I'm still there, having survived nine (ten?) rounds of layoffs, but I think they'll be coming for me soon. Even if they weren't I'd still be applying to meds, it's time for a change.

 

So why do I want to be a doctor? I guess the canonical answer is "I want to help people". Lemme expand on that a bit. I've had lots of patient care experience with the St. John Ambulance Brigade. (St. John - hours of boredom punctuated by moments of stark terror! Incidentally I'm literally a St. John poster boy. Not my fault, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The picture isn't very flattering but it makes my mom proud...) I really enjoy making things a little bit better for people who are sick, injured or scared. I figure meds offers a good balance of helping people one-on-one while still letting me use my noodle to solve tough problems. I also perceive a need. I grew up on a farm in southwestern Ontario, hence the nic. It's not a remote area -- about 160km northwest of Toronto ("bouda hunert mile northwesta Trana") -- but they're hurting for lack of doctors. When it comes to specialists per capita, Macleans ranks my hometown second-last across Canada. Pathetic!

 

Do I think I'll get into meds? Hell, I dunno. Once in do I think I'll succeed? Dunno that either. My GPA is mumble...mumble...3.3...mumble. In my defense I was in one of the toughest undergrad programmes in the country - electrical engineering at Waterloo. It was also a matter of focus - I didn't intend to do meds at the time. As long as my marks were good enough for grad school I didn't fret about being right at the top of the class. I got great marks in the courses I liked and mediocre marks in the others. It definitely wasn't good as a pre-med program (my out of faculty GPA is significantly higher), but that wasn't the point. If I had the chance to do it over I'd still do the same degree. I'm darn proud of it, and the experience shaped who I am today. Besides, you can't spell 'geek' without EE. Of course I could actually be a complete idjit with no hope of succeeding at med school. ("See the happy moron, he doesn't give a damn. I wish I were a moron...my god perhaps I am!"). Time will tell.

 

So plan A is to apply to Mac this fall, write some pretty essays and see what happens.

 

Plan B is grad school. I haven't sorted out specifics, I'm waiting until after the 15th to worry about that. It will probably have something to do with the fabrication or analysis of really really small stuff ("nanotechnology" is a much-abused word, I break out in hives when I hear it.) A grad degree will help atone for my undergrad sins and will also be a lot of fun. It's something I've wanted to do since my undergrad days.

 

I also have plans C, D and Z, but they're not worth talking about right now.

 

Enough about me, tell me about yourself...

 

pb

 

P.S. I'm also a believer in strong crypto. I don't think anybody would go to the trouble of spoofing my identy, but I'm going to sign my posts. My keyID is 0xADDB0B6C.

 

 

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[Guest mying]

Go on, try me. Do I know which poster you're in? Do I know where you are? (Ohho, I can stalk you, betcha I can... okay, anyways... I need to get out more... oh, and good description of life as a brigader...) My last post before stepping down to semi-auxiliary (and branch *evil grin*) was DS in Halton Hills.

 

Here's wishing you the best of luck with that app. Mac didn't even give me an interview two years in a row -- they ranked my autobiographical stuff really high, and nailed me on my GPA, but then I hear they approach "more untraditional" students differently.

 

How is your GPA when you actually break it down into years? Did you happen to get those "prereq" courses for the other schools? Would you have a chance at Queen's or Western that way if you tackled the MCAT?

 

Mac's a good school and a great option for those whose life's taken a turn or two, but the competition's a bit stiffer in that category for exactly that reason. But nevertheless, there's always a chance, and best of luck no matter what route you go!

 

And the instant I saw your PGP signature I knew there was a good chance you were from Waterloo... funny that...

[Guest Simon Rose]

Ploughboy

 

I just want to say that it is great to see another engineer attempting this whole medicine business. I am in Mechanical Engineering myself. I am planning on medschool for much the same reasons as you. Engineering is fun and generally rewarding, but I just don't feel like I am making a difference in anyone's life. I am also from a rural town with a serious doctor shortage (Northern BC not Ontario). Anyways good luck.

[Guest MayFlower1]

ploughboy...

 

I see you've finally decided to come out of the closet! Welcome! (You see, I know this guy from SJA brigade...we also worked as the same unnamed place of employment whose stock is currently under a buck...ouch)

 

You're not as "non-traditional" as you may think here. I think I'm pretty weird too There are many who lurk in this forum who come from extremely different backgrounds. One of the aspects of this place that I like so much IS the diversity of opinion, experiences and ages.

 

I look forward to interacting with you in this forum.

 

Peter

[Guest Ceds]

Hey ploughboy,

 

Good luck on your apps. I too am applying to McMaster. That deadline is approaching soon isn't it?

 

Cedrin

[Guest ploughboy]

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Hi mying,

 

Oooh this is a fun game! Here's your only clue: Although I'm not a former national commissioner and I don't like wearing hats, apparently I "have what it takes" to look goofy on a poster.

 

I'm not in Ontario District by the way, so we've probably never met.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with Mac. I'm going to get creamed on GPA (probably 20th percentile or so) but I hope to do somewhat better than that on my auto submission.

 

Based on Mac's website and the limited amount of hard data here in the archives I suspect Mac's scoring system resembles this:

 

http://pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm9.showMessage?topicID=93.topic (scores for essays have a larger dynamic range than GPA scores, therefore the probability of getting an interview is most sensitive to your essay score)

 

rather than this:

 

http://pub125.ezboard.com/fpremed101frm9.showMessage?topicID=226.topic (the "average the percentiles" model)

 

That gives me a little bit of hope. I did some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations last week to make myself feel better about this assertion. Even after accounting for the people who are interviewed solely on the strength of their essays the numbers hung together. I'll tidy it up and post it in the Mac forum after the 15th (too busy between now and then!) We're still only talking single-digit percentages here, but that's more encouraging than chasing something that's mathematically impossible. Whatever gets ya through the night, eh?

 

Last year I played with the GPA formulas for the Ontario schools, just to see where I stood. I'm borderline for satisfying UWO's "best and last year" criteria assuming that I do a post-bacc year and pick up their pre-reqs in summer school. I feel that doing well in a grad degree will give me more bang for my buck. I haven't paid much attention to school-specific requirements this year (other than Mac) but IIRC Ottawa, Queens and arguably U(T) offer special provision for grad applicants. They might not welcome my application with open arms, but at least they won't giggle and toss it into the trash. All I have to do is knock off an M.Sc. or a Ph.D. No trouble at all, I'll have it done before lunch...

 

TTYL

 

pb

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[Guest ploughboy]

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Hey Simon,

 

Glad to meet a fellow engineer. So you're from Northern BC? I saw a news article a while ago talking about how towns up there are aggressively recruiting MDs from South Africa, and whether or not this was a moral thing to do. Any thoughts?

 

pb

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[Guest mying]

Hey, wasn't that taken at the NBPCC at Humber? If that's the one you mean, then I guess it's easy to narrow down who you are... between the "boy" and the "no hat" that is. I wasn't there, alas, but you can thank me for sorting all those photos to put onto the CD. And my fiance for being in charge of all those pesky camera kids. And to answer the question I know you're thinking, NO, we are NOT having a St. John wedding, and y'all can stop asking anytime now. I forget. Did you win?

 

(And between you saying Ontario _District_ and mentions of your anonymous workplace, oh, and that jacket, I know where you live now, nah nah nah naaa naaa -- and I've met plenty of St. Johners there, actually, most in the Cadet side of things but not all. Hung out with a bunch on Canada Day a couple years ago, in fact.)

 

I hope you're right about the scoring at Mac. I really don't know. Clearly, I never figured them out. My GPA overall wasn't rocking, and it showed in how they scored me there.

 

Should this not go your way, if you want to increase your chances for Western, a post-bacc year is the way to go. Grad work doesn't wipe away your GPA and/or prereqs requirements from undergrad. That's just Western, of course, but that's who I'm supposed to speak for here. Other schools might be more accomodating for masters and phd grads.

[Guest Sil]

I have to agree with mying. Grad work doesn't wipe out your GPA. I tend to think that the best option for some schools such as Ottawa, Wester, Queens and Saskatchewan is doing some more undergrad.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Unfortunately, that's one of those choices that gets really complicated based on the school. For Western, doing Grad work doesn't matter. . . if your undergrad GPA is below the cutoff, it's below the cutoff. You can do a second undergrad degree to try to get above, but a Grad degree won't matter.

 

But my understanding for is that for U of T and Mac, doing a Grad degree DOES help.

 

I think (unfortunately) it's one of those things that you have to research SCHOOL by SCHOOL and then plan a strategy around which schools you're going to try to get into. Pain in the butt, eh?

 

And to all those engineers out there trying to get into medical school. . . I did an elective in Orthopedic surgery las year, and I'd just like to mention that a many of the surgical programs LOVE engineers right now. Why? Because of all of the technological innovations coming along. If memory serves me correctly, the orthopod resident I scrubbed in with last year was working on some pretty advanced stuff with robotic surgery (I'm pretty sure UWO is near the forefront in that kind of research). Engineers have a great headstart in understanding that kind of thing.

 

Good luck.

[Guest ploughboy]

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All - Sorry I wasn't clear in my previous post. Here is my understanding of how Ont. schools look at grad degrees:

 

 

(Disclaimer for other premeds reading this: there's a good chance I don't know what I'm talking about, so do your own damn research.)

 

Queens - replaces your GPA with the median of the applicant pool. Obviously they only do this if it strengthens your application. This gets you past hurdle #1 in their process, hurdle #2 is MCAT.

 

Ottawa - looks at your app if and only if your grad average is over 85%

 

Mac - counts your grad degree as one extra undergrad year with a GPA = median of applicant pool. Better than nothing I guess.

 

U(T) - does something dark and mysterious, but they won't reject you outright.

 

I didn't include UWO in my list for the reason y'all stated: they look at a grad degree and go "ya, so?" That's why I said I figured a grad degree would get me more bang for my buck (especially since it's something I've wanted to do for years now). It helps at every Ont. school except Western. Now I realize UWO students have a fairly rigid world-view but come on guys, there *are* other schools out there (grin!). I guess this would be a bad time to tell my "how does a Western student change a light bulb" joke, eh?

 

Of course grad work isn't a walk in the park - I'll need great marks, lots of publications, stellar references and more than a little luck. Good thing I'm a stubborn German.

 

By the way, mying - you got it in one try, very impressive! Actually I'm so impressed that I just might have to slap you with a restraining order...stop stalking me! (smile) It sounds like we have some friends in common, actually. So you were a super. and Mac didn't interview you? Why do I even bother applying...

 

To answer your question, the Feds took home some hardware from comps, but it wasn't won by our team. We finished in the middle of the pack, I think Ontario _Council_ took gold in our division. We asked for a copy of our scores - if we'd done a few little things differently we would have been in contention for the medals. Not bad for a team that had to double-check the date two of our members joined SJA, just to be sure they were eligible to compete! Our strength is that we work *really* well together as a team (even though the gals pick on me). It will be a shame if the team breaks up before '04, but with one of us in U(0) meds now and another planning on grad school or med school it's not very likely that we'll have the same team in BC. Even if we stick together we might not make it out there, a couple of other teams want to take us out at pre-Nationals. Ahh, friendly competition...

 

Good work on the CD by the way. If you're ever up this way I'll buy you a BEvERage. Are you sure you won't reconsider the whole St. John wedding thing?

 

pb

 

 

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[Guest mying]

Hey, I *did* allow that I have no idea about the other schools. I never looked into how schools considered grad work, I figured I'd cross that bridge when I came to it, and given how little I like research, I'm glad I didn't come to it.

 

I have no idea who won what anymore, I vaguely recall that it may have been Oakville that took the Advanced. I know them, watched them at the preliminaries, they'd be a very tough team to beat, they have a lot of competition experience. Which I guess is important in some people's books. And sounds like you had a fun time, makes me want to try competition (hasn't happened yet, though).

 

Which leads into my other thing. Position's one thing, experience is another. Sure I had a lot to write about, and only some of it was from SJA, but there were a lot of things I didn't have to talk about: research experience, maybe some life experience things, etc. I can balance a budget. So? I don't know what exactly they look for, and it could be all in how something gets worded.

 

Not trying to be pessimistic, I just *don't* know.

 

I didn't do THAT much on the CD. I sorted the pictures and vectorized the logo, that's all. My fiance did the slideshow at the big dinner thing and a whole lot more. And no, NO St. John wedding. That's just way too weird, thanks.