Ottawa Vs Mcgill

[jruspin]

I'm hoping to get some advice on how the McGill and Ottawa programs compare. I've already made my decision about which city I'd prefer to live in, how the costs compare etc., but I would really appreciate the inside scoop on the programs themselves.

I've heard through some students that Ottawa is extremely supportive, even through clerkship no matter what issues arise, and that McGill might not make as many allowances. I've also heard that the over-worked healthcare system in Quebec has a trickle-down effect leading to med students being expected to do a lot more (take on more patients, learn fast, sink or swim...) in clerkship compared to other schools. Are these fair assumptions? Is there anything else major that I should be considering when looking purely at the programs?

[Lookimadoctornow]

I don't think the trickle down effect for McGill is completely fair. I think it's more accurate to compare McGill med to uoft med in the sense that a lot of it depends on which hospital you are at and who your supervisor is. I think you should also be considering the reputation of the school. As much as Ottawa is high in comraderie, McGill may get you where you want to go. It has a world renowned rep and many of the med students get prestigious residency options. For eg. Fertility in Canada is very diifficult to get into, and many fertility doctors do end up coming from McGill. I'm at uoft now, so this is based off of what I hear from my friends at both schools, family etc. As far as residency and reputation, McGill is a leader. Could it be more competitive, possibly, but you are going to medical school to become the best possible Doctor, and working under world renowned doctors that push you, isn't actually bad. I'm starting my 3rd year at uoft, and have heard many similarities between us and mcgill. Living in a city like Montreal also opens some big opportunities. I think my enjoyment of uoft would push me personally towards McGill. I hope this helps! I just made a new account on this forum today (I forgot my premed password lol) and kinda forget what it's like. Let me know if you have any questions:)

[astb]

And see I wouldn't pick McGill just based on prestige and name alone because you think it will give you better chances and experiences. In fact McGill was put on probation by the accrediting body this past summer due to issues of quality of instruction and a failure to provide equal clinical experiences for all medical students in their faculty (you can find more information on this and how they are moving forward if you google McGill medical school probation but here is one article http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/mcgill-universitys-medical-school-put-on-probation-following-investigation/article25012146/). So I encourage you to also look into this, not as a way to automatically dismiss McGill, but just to be as well informed as possible so you know the current and future directions that your school will be taking. 

 

EDIT: Heres the link to the discussion on this forum when the news first came out. It has lots of different information on it (http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/85366-mcgill-med-program-put-on-probation/). And again I want to reiterate that this is not a reason to not pick the school but just an example that prestige and name does not always equal the best education and experience for all students. 

[thethirdlaw]

And see I wouldn't pick McGill just based on prestige and name alone because you think it will give you better chances and experiences. In fact McGill was put on probation by the accrediting body this past summer due to issues of quality of instruction and a failure to provide equal clinical experiences for all medical students in their faculty (you can find more information on this and how they are moving forward if you google McGill medical school probation but here is one article http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/mcgill-universitys-medical-school-put-on-probation-following-investigation/article25012146/). So I encourage you to also look into this, not as a way to automatically dismiss McGill, but just to be as well informed as possible so you know the current and future directions that your school will be taking. 

 

EDIT: Heres the link to the discussion on this forum when the news first came out. It has lots of different information on it (http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/85366-mcgill-med-program-put-on-probation/). And again I want to reiterate that this is not a reason to not pick the school but just an example that prestige and name does not always equal the best education and experience for all students. 

 

McGill's probation is fun to pick at because everyone likes to see a giant stumble. In 2 years no one will talk about it anymore. McGill handled it in the best possible way, they didn't appeal the decision (chances are they could have avoided probation with appeal, much like WSU down south), instead they used it as an opportunity to implement a long term strategy and inject some real growth into the program instead. Admittedly, there were a few glaring problems in student experiences at a distributed site and a vague system of reporting mistreatment by superiors (lol a problem everywhere, look at the thread warning about pimping in medical school in the general forum), and those will be remedied, the administration has been entirely transparent in the process, there are dozens of documents addressing every single issue raised and the response the school is planning/implementing and its current status. But that said, many of the citations received were administrative in nature (I'm not downplaying them as irrelevant, as others will argue they reflect ripples in the fabric of the program). But I mean, "mapping objectives to courses", establishing contracts at the new Glen hospital, transition between curricula etc.......

 

I chose McGill over UofT, UBC, and Dal (and Ottawa good waitlist). My reasons were: the experiences offered by a strong research institution, the reputation of the school, the new curriculum with immensely involved early clinical experiences, flexible schedule with recorded morning lectures (ability to shadow, get involved, sleep in etc.), Montreal as a city which offers nightlife, culture and history at an affordable price, and the people seemed cool.

 

As far as the purported/perceived lack of support? Again, the future accreditation visits will actually help in this regard, the students are now inherently linked with the growing nature of the program and curriculum in response to the citations from AFMC, this level of involvement will naturally demand an immensely supportive environment from the administration.

 

In the end, you have to choose a program that fits your needs, McGill checked off more boxes than the others for me, regardless of a transient probation blemish. Whether Ottawa does that for you, only you can know.

[polos12]

McGill has maintained 22nd in World Rankings. See the follow-up comments from the same article that a user questioning quality of data and it nothing to do with (high) quality of the MD graduates it produces. McGill grads went to top schools' residencies (do your own due diligence however quick web glanced shows Stanford/ob-gyn, Harvard,Yale/plastics, Johns Hopkins/pathology, Harvard/IM etc.

[astb]

McGill's probation is fun to pick at because everyone likes to see a giant stumble. In 2 years no one will talk about it anymore. McGill handled it in the best possible way, they didn't appeal the decision (chances are they could have avoided probation with appeal, much like WSU down south), instead they used it as an opportunity to implement a long term strategy and inject some real growth into the program instead. Admittedly, there were a few glaring problems in student experiences at a distributed site and a vague system of reporting mistreatment by superiors (lol a problem everywhere, look at the thread warning about pimping in medical school in the general forum), and those will be remedied, the administration has been entirely transparent in the process, there are dozens of documents addressing every single issue raised and the response the school is planning/implementing and its current status. But that said, many of the citations received were administrative in nature (I'm not downplaying them as irrelevant, as others will argue they reflect ripples in the fabric of the program). But I mean, "mapping objectives to courses", establishing contracts at the new Glen hospital, transition between curricula etc.......

 

I chose McGill over UofT, UBC, and Dal (and Ottawa good waitlist). My reasons were: the experiences offered by a strong research institution, the reputation of the school, the new curriculum with immensely involved early clinical experiences, flexible schedule with recorded morning lectures (ability to shadow, get involved, sleep in etc.), Montreal as a city which offers nightlife, culture and history at an affordable price, and the people seemed cool.

 

As far as the purported/perceived lack of support? Again, the future accreditation visits will actually help in this regard, the students are now inherently linked with the growing nature of the program and curriculum in response to the citations from AFMC, this level of involvement will naturally demand an immensely supportive environment from the administration.

 

In the end, you have to choose a program that fits your needs, McGill checked off more boxes than the others for me, regardless of a transient probation blemish. Whether Ottawa does that for you, only you can know.

 

 

This bolded part is what I was trying to get at. I agree that probation is often not a bad thing because it keeps all schools accountable and keeps medical education progressing and improving and we need that. Also I would agree it can really give medical programs the kick in the butt they need to make great changes that they were starting the process of moving to. I was just saying that don't choose a program just because of its reputation and perceived prestige first because reality can be different than perception (and this is the only reason I posted about the probation so that we all know that being prestigious and well recognized does not mean you cannot improve) and second because if it is not the right fit for you and what you want no amount of prestige is going to make it a good experience. For instance for me who is interested in rural medicine and improving healthcare access to communities in Northern Ontario going to a school like McGill or UofT does not make as much sense, regardless of reputation. Plus, it's always good to know what is going on at your school because it will indirectly or directly affect you along your medical journey, even if it is just answering questions about it on this forum! 

[Doc_911_doc]

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_16_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_and_Discipline_Choice_Rank_English.pdf

 

This is the match rate by school for 2015 - McGill is at 88.5% and Ottawa at 92.5%. Does that make a difference? Does that say one school is better than another? Nope - match results depend a lot on the cohort and what specialty was picked. 

 

But the point I'm trying to illustrate - "prestige" is useless in Canada. All the match rates are about on par with minimal variation. With a few outliers, most schools are comparable. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. But all are great - the overall match rate is still amazing anywhere you go. Smaller programs allow students more one on one time with preceptors and greater learning opportunities at the cost of case variety. Larger programs allow students more variety of experience at the cost of being 10th in line due to the huge number of residents, fellows, other students. Some say that at smaller programs, the match rate is better since your home school is more likely to have gotten a chance to know you and take you. Others say its better at bigger programs since you get more exposure to competitive specialties like derm, etc. It's a useless arguement - just like anything else there are pros and cons and those will be personalized to your individual goals.

 

What I want to say though - prestige should not be a factor. It's a false, inflated statement - we are not the US where there are 100+ medical schools and having the name "Harvard" alongside yours really means something big in comparison to Podunk University.

 

Pick the school that you want to go to based on what you want out of your experience. At the end of the day, both will guarantee you a solid education - which is the beauty of Canadian medical school. Chances of matching to a better program based on school of origin - not a thing. You match to a good program by being a spectacular applicant, which thanks to the fact that all Canadian schools run at about on par with each other - you can do anywhere! 

[thethirdlaw]

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Table_16_Match_Results_by_School_of_Graduation_and_Discipline_Choice_Rank_English.pdf

 

This is the match rate by school for 2015 - McGill is at 88.5% and Ottawa at 92.5%. Does that make a difference? Does that say one school is better than another? Nope - match results depend a lot on the cohort and what specialty was picked. 

 

But the point I'm trying to illustrate - "prestige" is useless in Canada. All the match rates are about on par with minimal variation. With a few outliers, most schools are comparable. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. But all are great - the overall match rate is still amazing anywhere you go. Smaller programs allow students more one on one time with preceptors and greater learning opportunities at the cost of case variety. Larger programs allow students more variety of experience at the cost of being 10th in line due to the huge number of residents, fellows, other students. Some say that at smaller programs, the match rate is better since your home school is more likely to have gotten a chance to know you and take you. Others say its better at bigger programs since you get more exposure to competitive specialties like derm, etc. It's a useless arguement - just like anything else there are pros and cons and those will be personalized to your individual goals.

 

What I want to say though - prestige should not be a factor. It's a false, inflated statement - we are not the US where there are 100+ medical schools and having the name "Harvard" alongside yours really means something big in comparison to Podunk University.

 

Pick the school that you want to go to based on what you want out of your experience. At the end of the day, both will guarantee you a solid education - which is the beauty of Canadian medical school. Chances of matching to a better program based on school of origin - not a thing. You match to a good program by being a spectacular applicant, which thanks to the fact that all Canadian schools run at about on par with each other - you can do anywhere! 

 

Those match statistics only take in those who matched to their 1st choice, ~52% of Ottawa grads ranked FM first. The CaRMS stats usually require looking through multiple reports to build a real picture of what's going on. Overall match rates are the same across the board though, but just wanted to clarify that. The level of education is even across the board, the delivery varies though, and personal preferences are king in this regard.

 

In the end yeah, choose the school that will make life happiest for you, whatever you value and prefer means much more than rankings, prestige etc.

[jruspin]

Thanks for the replies! Prestige really isn't something I'm thinking about, as I tend to agree with doc911 about this. I'm also not at all concerned with the probation issue.

 

Can anyone comment on whether McGill would be tougher in any way? Is clerkship likely to be more stressful? Both schools will obviously provide a fantastic education, but I know med school is extremely tough to begin with so I think Ottawa might have an edge in that regard if it really is more relaxed.

[Edict]

I don't think the trickle down effect for McGill is completely fair. I think it's more accurate to compare McGill med to uoft med in the sense that a lot of it depends on which hospital you are at and who your supervisor is. I think you should also be considering the reputation of the school. As much as Ottawa is high in comraderie, McGill may get you where you want to go. It has a world renowned rep and many of the med students get prestigious residency options. For eg. Fertility in Canada is very diifficult to get into, and many fertility doctors do end up coming from McGill. I'm at uoft now, so this is based off of what I hear from my friends at both schools, family etc. As far as residency and reputation, McGill is a leader. Could it be more competitive, possibly, but you are going to medical school to become the best possible Doctor, and working under world renowned doctors that push you, isn't actually bad. I'm starting my 3rd year at uoft, and have heard many similarities between us and mcgill. Living in a city like Montreal also opens some big opportunities. I think my enjoyment of uoft would push me personally towards McGill. I hope this helps! I just made a new account on this forum today (I forgot my premed password lol) and kinda forget what it's like. Let me know if you have any questions:)

 

I'll be honest, i haven't actually heard many great things about residency at McGill. There are issues there for sure. Reputation also isn't a factor in Canada and again the probation thing might have been a sign of something systemic. I have heard things about attendings not letting residents use ultrasound guided CVC insertion, a lack of supervision of trainees on unit, overworked residents, Quebec's lower resident salaries (not under McGill's control unfortunately).  

 

If you are looking for an old school style education (lectures, didactic, hardcore sink or swim), McGill is probably your place, whereas Ottawa definitely practices more of a newer style (CBL, less class time, "softer") and honestly there isn't one better than another. 

 

Again all the stuff i'm saying is anecdotal, so take it with a massive grain of salt. 

 

If you really can't decide, let the city make the decision. 

[polos12]

Ottawa's diverse and francophone culture, lifestyle, national capital are ++s, and equal opportunities to work with world class hospitals, faculty, and R&Ds are comparable too. Ottawa also has partnership with Shanghai to foster clinical partnerships.

[med_2021]

Having lived in both Ottawa and Montreal I have to say I prefer the culture and community of Montreal.

 

I have a good friend at McGill and he told me that McGill has really gone out of their way to improve the "problems".  Clerkship is difficult in all the programs (Mac, Queens, Ottawa, McGill...)!! But I was told the way McGill preps students is really good.  My friend had no problem transitioning and implementing what he learned in class. And so far I haven't heard anything from him about McGill being "hardcore sink or swim" it actually seems quite supportive to him.