relative quality of Canadian medical schools

[Guest cricketstix]

Hi,

 

I'm beginning the applications process right now, and would really appreciate a little feedback on which schools are considered highly for their medical programs.

 

I'm a Manitoba resident, and intend to also apply to U of C, U of Alberta, McGill, Western, and Ottawa.

 

 

Thanks a lot!

[Guest Ian Wong]

They are all strong schools. I personally don't think there's much variation in the quality of each medical school. More importantly, find out a bit more about each school's curriculum (you can find much of this via the old postings in each school's forum), and figure out if your learning style fits that school's teaching process.

 

From there, also look into the city itself, climate, proximity to friends/family, tuition, cost of living, etc. You'll perform best in a school and city environment that makes you happy, and you'll get a good medical education at each of the schools you've mentioned.

 

As far as your admission chances go, invariably your best chances will be wherever you hold provincial residency status, or perhaps at schools that don't discriminate against you as an OOP applicant.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Jennifer Y]

cricketstix:

How I did it was talk to some doctors at the teaching hospitals and they will tell you what their experiences and opinions are re the quality of med residences from the different med schools. While this is not absolutely 100%, at least it gives you some ideas about some of the med schools in Canada. It helped me in narrowing down the choices of schools that I applied to.

[Guest cricketstix]

Thank you both, Ian and Jennifer.

 

Although this is highly speculative, based on a 11.0 MCAT and a 4.1 GPA, what do you think options are, re Manitoba, Western, McGill, Calgary, and Alberta? I realise Manitoba is the last stronghold in terms of truly caring about the MCAT; the others, Ontario and Alberta provinces particularly, seem to me to be far more resume-inclined.

 

 

Thanks again

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi cricketstix,

 

I'll give this a whirl....

 

In terms of being "resume-inclined", Manitoba is not a whole lot less so than either Western or Alberta; the U of M simply puts more weight on the MCAT, rather than on marks. At Western, for example, the interview is worth 50%, while marks/VR/WS scores are also worth 50%. At Alberta, the split is also 50/50, with the interview being worth 25% and the essay 15%. (Alberta also weighs references for 5 and grad degrees for 5).

 

With your stats, as a Manitoban, you have a strong chance at Manitoba. For the others, simply because of the volume of people applying vs. the number of spots available, your chances will naturally be lower (just on a statistical basis), and therefore the "personal qualities" stuff would come even more into play; consequently, it would be difficult to assess the likelihood of your being accepted to the other schools. Also, as far as your chances, there are specific cut-offs to meet, particularly in terms of MCAT score breakdown, just to receive an interview.

 

As far as the relative merits of the various med schools in Canada, as Ian mentioned, they're all strong -- I would certainly be happy to receive an acceptance from any of them -- but they do have some subtle and not-so-subtle differences in terms of their curricula/teaching methods, teaching hospitals, labs, students, etc. As I discovered during my recent jaunt through the interview process, it's difficult to get a good feel for a school and how you would fit into it unless you actually visit it yourself.

[Guest Ian Wong]

I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to your chances at each school, as the application process is so variable and unpredicatable. I think each med school looks for something a little different, and so the best school of thought for maximising your chances is to apply to as many schools as you are able.

 

MM brought up a great point, which is that your best opportunity by far to figure out whether a school is right for you comes at interview time. I think most schools have some sort of tour or social event organized where you can meet with med students or fellow applicants to exchange information and such. I found those really helpful for my interviews in Saskatchewan and Calgary; UBC didn't do such a thing when I applied, although we've since introduced some med student presentations and a social.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest cricketstix]

Thanks again, Ian and MM. I really appreciate the opportunity to bounce a few ideas off someone with experience and knowledge.

[Guest maxell]

My opinion, although maybe controversial, is as follows. Take is for what is is worth.

 

Based on my experience from studying for my masters at the UofM at the Faculty of Medicine, I am avoiding the UofM like hell. While graduate school has no bearing at all on the medical school program, the callousness of the people I came across with, as well as the lack of standards in general at the UofM, is sufficient reason for me to avoid the University of Manitoba. For me at least.

 

It is generally true that people with higher grades and MCATs choose other medical schools than Manitoba. This may have to do with the reputation of the university, or the fact that many Manitobans (perhaps tired of Winnipeg) choose to leave the province. Of the ten or so people who applied to medical school, only those who did not get accepted elsewhere stayed at the UofM. Having said that, there are people who only apply to the UofM due to family or financial considerations.

 

The 11 MCAT score you mentioned might not translate into an 11 in Ontario or elsewhere. Many places don't factor in the Essay score as Manitoba does (so basically, only VR, BS, and PS are added to obtain the total MCAT score, and then there are cut-offs for each). Also, based on where you studied in Manitoba, your GPA is converted to the OMSAS GPA for Ontario - my GPA of 4.4 Manitoba scale translates into a 3.94 OMSAS scale. You need to look at these factors to determine your competitiveness. Incidentally, I am told that the UofM includes the Essay score into the MCAT score to favour female candidates over male candidates, as traditionally women do better in essay writing than males.

 

Manitoba is basically an MCAT school. 50% of the total assessment is strictly based on the MCAT, as you know. In addition, getting an interview is based on your MCAT and GPA ONLY, as you need to write the autobiographical sketch after you get invited to attend. If you pick up an application, you will see that from the table, statistically 100% of candidates with high GPA and MCAT scores get accepted. This is very different from some Ontario medical schools, where a combination of factors including your autobio sketch, and essay determine whether you are even invited for further consideration.

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Well, I'm feeling like quite the circus freak! 8o

 

1. The WS score is my LOWEST , yet...

2. I'm female.

3. I've interviewed at all the schools I applied to, and...

4. I thought the U of M was a great school and would be very happy to receive an acceptance.

 

Actually, I can see where Maxell is coming from. My brother attended the U of M for undergrad, and his program was less than spectacular; therefore, for students who've stayed home for "pre-med" degrees, I can definitely understand their having a desire to go elsewhere. However, I'm not certain that the quality of other programs at the U of M, even those within the Faculty of Medicine, is reflective of the quality of the medical school. Bearing in mind that medical schools DO have outside standards to live up to (board scores, residency placements, etc), whereas general undergrad and grad programs normally don't, it's reasonable to guess that the MD program might be of a higher overall quality than other programs at the U of M.

 

Of course, take my views with a grain of salt. What I am looking for in a med school will undoubtedly differ from what you or anyone else is looking for. Personally, I am impressed with the overall happiness of the U of M med students and the emphasis the school puts on community. If I were looking for a research school, the U of M might not be my first choice.

 

Thanks, Maxell, for giving another perspective.

[Guest Terrence]

Ive had people who have told me do not repeat do not go to med school at UofM. Apparently the program is very weak, and that people who get accepted elsewhere certainly take advantage of the opportunity to go. The school in general is weak research and reputation wise both in the academic and clinical community, Nothing has really come out of their research, including stellar grants. Maxell, just curious why you did a masters there???? bad move my friend!

 

Terrance

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Hi Terr(e/a)nce,

 

Every physician I've spoken to has told me not to worry about where I go for med school because students at all of the schools in Canada come out with essentially the same level of knowledge and clinical skills. I've never heard anything bad about the med school at the U of M.

 

Where did you get your information? I'm genuinely curious...

[Guest Terrence]

I dont mean to cut the school up. I got my info from a friend who got accepted there and when talking to other schools that he was considering, they kinda told him about Manitoba's weakness in getting good reseidency positions etc. My dad who is a MD/Phd did research there before and now is at another med school. The consesus from the Phd and MD students he supervises is that productivity innovation and teaching excellence are at a very low level relative to other canadian schools. That being said, Residency directors like to see people who come from strong schools. Its true u will be MD no matter what but its interesting that UofT has the highest placement rate in the Carms first round match.

 

Terr(ae)nce (sorry its not my real name

[Guest Ian Wong]

U of T doesn't have the highest match rate (not to mention that match rates aren't too reliable, as a school with a greater number of graduates going into less competitive specialties will have a very high match rate).

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Terrance]

I dont know about this year, but historically I think I read it was from 1996-2000 they matched more in the first round first choice than any other school. But thats a good point if a lot people want to persue a less competitive specialty than they will obvoiusly have a high success rate, but I think UofT is known for churning out good specialists, but im not certain of that

 

thanks

[Guest Ian Wong]

I couldn't confirm that, but I doubt that Toronto has taken the highest match rate over those 5 years. Just doesn't sound intuitive to me, given the impressive success of Ottawa and McMaster in that regard. In either event, match rates may tell you that a given class applied to less competitive programs, and therefore had a higher match rate percentage.

 

In an extreme example, if one school matches all 100 of its graduates into primary care specialties (eg. Family Medicine, Internal Medicine) which are fairly plentiful, and another school matches 50 people into Ophthalmology, Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, and Urology, and the other 50 people didn't match, I'd still say that School 2 was more competitive in the match than School 1, despite only having a 50% match rate.

 

Anyway, here's a link for the 2001 match rate:

www.carms.ca/stats/mSurvey2001/5_pg_8.htm

 

Ottawa led with a match rate of 92%, McMaster was second with 89%, and Toronto was lumped in with a number of other schools in the 81-83% range.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest brandonite]

Well, I've been following for a while now, but haven't posted anything, partially because I have been trying to make up my own mind about this.

 

I've been to the school now four times. I've been very impressed with the students. The facilities are generally very good, and the faculty that I have talked to have been very helpful. All of that makes Manitoba a great program, at least in my opinion.

 

But I have been less than thrilled with the administration, both of the medical school and of the graduate school. I am an MD/PhD applicant. There is supposedly a program in development, but nobody seems able to tell me about the program or how to get into it. Nobody seems to respond to my emails, apart from one great professor who has been very helpful. It just sends of this bad aura and image that really bothers me. I know most of those things are little problems, but the little things can be very important.

 

But, I haven't given up on Manitoba yet. I'll be there in the fall doing a year of PhD work before I begin my MD/PhD, due to some really nice graduate scholarships I've received. I'm hoping that my prior faith in Manitoba will be rehabilitated over the course of the next year...

[Guest Zack2006]

Whenever comparing things, such as schools, there are a variety of objective and subjective factors that must be examined. Maxell has stated that his/her experience as a grad student of UM has been diappointing thus far. This is a perfectly valid subjective impression. However, I am troubled that someone who is not a medical student would pass judgement on the quality of the school as a whole. How cohesive is the class? Do you enjoy your clinical profs? Do you like the way the curriculum is structured? These are relevant questions that Maxell is simply unable to offer an opinion on.

 

That said, as far as objective factors go (facilities, funding, prof:student ratio, etc.) UM rates well on any scale you might wish to use. So what is at the root of this poor impression of UM?

 

A poor opinion of a school based upon a bad experience with a cranky research prof *gasp* is both disappointing and irresponsible. There may, of course, be other valid reasons that may be presented to back up the claim that UM is not up to par, however, Maxell is either unwilling or unable to offer such. I certainly put no stock in the nebulous phrase "lacking in standards". What does this mean? It could mean anything from poor match results to the sticky buns in the coffee shop aren't fresh. Who knows? Perhaps Maxell will feel compelled to clarify.

[Guest missing Manitoba]

Well, the poor quality is definitely NOT in the sticky buns. As a patient, I frequented the little coffee shop at HSC, and its baking was terrific. Now, the hospital cafeteria food, on the other hand... :x

 

Brandonite,

Are they still not responding to emails? Which PhD program are you heading for? Biophysics? I'm sorry the MD/PhD program is so disorganized.

 

Zack2006,

Although I do think the opinions of a former prof are relevant, my views are similar to yours. As an applicant interested primarily in clinical medicine, I'm not looking for a school with a high volume of research output or a strong grad/undergrad reputation. Instead, I'm looking at the more intangible factors like cohesiveness and atmosphere. Are you applying this year?

 

Terr(e/a)nce,

Not to worry -- missing Manitoba's not my real name, either. As far as the negative opinions of your father's CURRENT students, I'm unsure of their validity. After all, although they could attest to its reputation, as med students at another university, they have, one would assume, never attended the U of M med school and therefore couldn't legitimately or fairly comment on its quality . Also, I believe the U of M administration/faculty have been working for the past few years to improve and update their teaching program, so the opinions you're hearing might not be in keeping with the current program, depending on when your father left. That said, as a current applicant, it's definitely interesting to read another perspective on things.

[Guest cricketstix]

Hi brandonite,

 

I'm in a similar position to the one you're in with respect to application into the MD/PhD program. Like you, I can't find anyone at the U of M who can give me any answers. Could you please let me know who has been able to give you a hand with that? If you like, you can use my e-mail address.

 

Thanks

[Guest JSS02]

Sorry to butt in here, Ian, but are those match stats reasonably similar from year to year? I was just wondering why McGill had such a low (though I guess it might not be statistically significant) match rate compared to most other Canadian schools...

[Guest Ian Wong]

Don't know. It would vary a bit with each class, depending on if that particular class was more oriented in one direction or another. A few years back, one of the UBC classes had 8-9 people ranking Plastic Surgery as their #1 choice. Clearly, the majority of these people did not match into that specialty, but instead went unmatched or into a backup specialty, and that drives your match rate down.

 

It doesn't mean that your school is poor; could mean nothing more than that a specific class wanted lots of tough specialties.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest ManitobaMed]

As you can see, I've deleted some posts. Hopefully, this will keep things from deteriorating further. :\

[Guest brandonite]

Unfortunately, some of the hoops that this school makes us all jump through leave some of us in slightly less than friendly moods.

 

But good call ManitobaMed. As the Chinese proverb goes, "may you live in interesting times"...

[Guest Frankie]

Hey Brondonite...are you Chinese? Or speak Chinese? That's so cool..

[Guest brandonite]

Nope. I'm about as white as you can get - blond haired, blue eyes, and I wear golf shirts a lot. Ask ManitobaMed. I just happen to know a few lines that I can quote to make myself appear intelligent.