Guest DPT Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Let me start by saying that I am fully supportive of the Mac teaching philosophy and that I fully appreciate the way that the admissions process is designed...that being said...let me vent I have applied to Mac for the past three years. My first year written application finished in the top 98th percentile, and based on the results of my unsuccessful interview process, i probably finished ~200 of the 400 interviewees. With my second application, the only slightly improved written portion finished in the 97th percentile and my unsuccessful interview placed me again at ~200 of the 450 interviewees. So I learn from these challenges, I continue to do all the things that has made me a successful candidate in the past, I submit my already proven written application, with minor tweaking to make it even more bomb proof ----- result ----- no interview this year.......things that make me go hmmmm I know someone out there is going to say "well each year you are compared to the entire applicant pool and the quality of the applicants must have increased yadda yadda" but I still don't get it. With the questions being standardized, and my previous answers being exactly what they wanted, how does my app not even make the grade this year....How do I go from someone who is literally just inches away from getting a waitlist spot - to someone who doesn't warrant an interview. The two last years during my successful written app's I modestly told everyone that my success to date was a crapshoot - I was just lucky to have someone who appreciated my writing style, appreciated my answers, etc. How can anyone think otherwise after hearing about my experience... I realize that there are probably no answers to this, but its always good to vent. signed a little bitter and twisted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Oh poop DPT, I'm sorry to hear about your experiences:( This really is in many ways a bona fide grieving process for many so you are entitled to vent..... Just as you requested, I won't attempt to console you by saying that the process is competitive or the quality of applicants etc. Indeed it appears you have been overlooked. As a mere first time applicant I have no insight or explanation for your specific situation. In fact, from the looks of things you likely have more to teach us and share with us than we can with you, having gone through this process 3x now! In other words, turn that temporary biterness into something positive so that you can be a source of inspiration to fellow applicants! That said, use this time wisely to reflect and I hope you apply again! PS If and when the information is available, you should request your stats to gauge them against last years so that you really will know if "competition" was as stiff as you expected this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Hey man, that sucks. Getting a rejection letter hurts at the best of time, and hurts real bad especially if it's unexpected. I hope that venting here has helped to get things off your chest. When things settle back down, maybe take a look at what you submitted, and whether there were any omissions/flaws that appear on retrospective exam. If you can, it'd be of help for any future application attempts to see what percentile you fared this time (although I don't know if this data is obtainable from the McMaster office). Best of luck to you (it sounds like you've got a lot of good characteristics in your applications), and a strong dedication to this field; those two qualities are a huge part of the process. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sir charles Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 hi DPT, i'm really sorry. i won't offer advice (first, because i think you just wanted to be heard - you didn't ask for advice and second, because i agree with you - it's a crap shoot). i applied last year and was waitlisted - 92% autobiographical sketch and poor interview. whether people feel the selection process is fair or not and what it says about them as a person (or qualified medical school candidate) has to do with their attributional style. so, it's an "unsolvable" dispute because how we attribute the good and the bad in our lives is a personal preference. attributional styles say a lot about the personality and characteristics of a person, while an invitation for an interview to mac really doesn't tell you much about the same person. with respect to receiving an invitation for an interview, some might say they're "lucky," some might say they're "brilliant" and some might say, "the harder i work, the luckier i get." anyway, u catch my drift... hang in there. i actually haven't received word yet from mac so i don't know one way or the other. but, as my attributional style would have it, i feel, that "luck" has a lot to do with - either way. ever hear the one "man plans and G-d laughs?" i'm really sorry - i hear your dissappointment. MacDaddyeh, congradulations on the interview. you seem very charged and excited and i wish you all the best. yours, sir charles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 A friend of mine contacted the McMaster office, and was told that we are definitely not getting percentiles this year. In particular, the admissions office wrote: "Unfortunately, we are no longer providing percentile rankings. As stated in your letter: "Please be aware that due to the very large number of candidates, we are unable to provide feedback information regarding your application." Thank-you for your interest in McMaster's Medical Programme and good luck." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest enoughofthis Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 DPT Not that I don't sympathize with you--I truly do. My 'beef' is with the posters' comments: get a grip people. As future drs you are sometimes going to have to take off those rose coloured glasses of yours and look at a situation in an objective, critical fashion. Idealism can seriously hurt people--constructive criticism is often far more beneficial. I am not offering it today--I am too annoyed with you all today; you are giving Mac a baaaaaaaaad name. Med students are supposed to be future leaders. You can't afford to have the blinders on all the time. I am only visiting this site because a co-workers' daughter mentioned how ridiculous some of the comments are on this site. "My first year written application finished in the top 98th percentile, and based on the results of my unsuccessful interview process, i probably finished ~200 of the 400 interviewees. With my second application, the only slightly improved written portion finished in the 97th percentile and my unsuccessful interview placed me again at ~200 of the 450 interviewees" Okay: something does not sound right here. First, Mac has about 380 interviews--I'll give DPT the benefit of the doubt with this one. Are you serious? You did not do anything significantly different in the last three years that would warrant a re-vamp of your auto??????? That has to be rectified. There are far better things to do with your life than wait around for the Oct. appl time to come around so you can submit the essentially exact same auto. "i probably finished ~200 of the 400 interviewees"--you did or you didn't. From my understanding of Mac, they do NOT tell you what place you finished. You are bs'ing buddy. I repeat: I have total sympathy for you BUT you need to be honest. So your auto was great--super. BUT what was your GPA? Enough of the mac people on this site--GPA is HUGE at Mac. Just as it is anywhere else. If your auto was sufficient to pull up your percentile (without the help of a healthy GPA) great--but you will still be low on the list. Mac is picking a PACKAGE--you have to be exceptional in all ways. You were quick to give us your auto percentiles and your approximate score on the interview list---you know how you scored on the interviews. You did not do as well--if you did you would have shared that info with us. The three-step interview is **crucial** and this is how Mac weeds out many of their unsuitable or great-but-not-quite-good-enough candidates. That is the way it is folks. Stop being so dishonest with one another. Luck? Yeah, I little helps but if you are an exceptional candidate--i.e. GREAT GPA (over 3.80 is a must to be in this category); great extra-curs; great auto; proven capacity to be a self-directed learner and able to thrive with PBL; great interviews; great personality; great referees (yeah, sorry DPT but that may be what sunk you); well-rounded, mature......you will be chosen. If you are weak in one or more of these areas...your situation is more precarious. Simple as that. By the way: I am a proud graduate of Mac. I have interviewed plenty of people like DPT. You would be surprised how little luck factors in and although the process may seem subjective, patterns do emerge with each applicant. When you have a series of people who assess you as being a good candidate but not a great one and you don't have a past history of significant accomplishments, you are unlikely to be chosen. I deleted the very end of the above message because it was below the belt. Everything else was left in its entirety. -Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thelaze Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 You are way out of line, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kellyl20 Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 seems to me that from reading last year's posts, people got interviews at MAC with 3.0 GPAs and one peson in particular got in with even less than that, although she was heavily involved in her church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sir charles Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 enoughofthis enoughofthis. you have a position to defend. of course the process, from your point of view, is fair - why would an interviewer who spent time and energy invested in the process later admit that it was a fruitless investment? goodness. this board is a haven for defense mechanims. sometimes all people need is a little empathy. sympathy has nothing to do with empathy. a little understanding can help people find their own way. and in case you hadn't noticed, luck has much to do with life. who gets cancer, who your parents are, what country you grow up in, what SES you're born into, what you look like, etc... the ability to acknowledge another perspective takes more than sympathy and "honesty." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Koggetsu Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Enoughofthis: yes i see your point that perhaps there were other factors that made the candidate fail to get into Mac. And yes, he should have tried to improve his life in other areas. But u have to look at it this way, first of all, the admissions are not kept over from one year to the next. So as an applicant if u see that your %tile is 97-98 for 2 years, would u risk your chances by radically changing your answers?? Lets face it every system has its flaws and advatanges and u have to regardless of whether it was intended for that purpose or not. If the answers worked the last 2 times, it should be logical taht there is a good chance it would work again and u should use that to your advantage. From my personal experience, I know someone who had like a 90something % one year and dropped to like 60% the next year with the same set of answers. Also I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Wong Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Folks, When a thread starts off with something as potentially volatile as the original message, there's a very good chance things can degenerate into personal attacks. This happened last year on the forums when people got rejection letters both before and after interviews, and I will not let it happen again. Please keep things civil here on the forums. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Groundless attacks on an individual person, or on a med school itself will not be tolerated. Civil discussion is welcomed and encouraged. Be classy. Anything else is liable to get deleted, or to have the thread closed. Thanks for your attention. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MayFlower1 Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 DPT, I also sympathize with you. I am a second time applicant...I know the frustration, disappointment, hurt of not getting accepted. However, that being said...you do have to take a hard, honest, look at what is going on...because obviously, something needs to change if you're going to get in. Enoughofthis, Although I personally found you came across a bit strong, I think you have brought up many, many, great points. I also commend you on being honest as I think often people in this forum are hesitant to critique one another...I personally learn more from being criticized than praised...but that's my style. Not that I don't sympathize with you--I truly do. My 'beef' is with the posters' comments: get a grip people. As future drs you are sometimes going to have to take off those rose coloured glasses of yours and look at a situation in an objective, critical fashion. Idealism can seriously hurt people--constructive criticism is often far more beneficial. I am not offering it today--I am too annoyed with you all today; you are giving Mac a baaaaaaaaad name. Med students are supposed to be future leaders. You can't afford to have the blinders on all the time. This is very true. I received an interview to the only school I applied to (UofO) last year. I muffed my interview. Sure, I was upset...sure I was disappointed...but I knew one thing...my success/failure was dependent entirely on what I did during that interview. It would have been so easy to say "the process is subjective" or "they didn't ask questions which enabled them to get to know me"...but the truth is...I didn't do the right stuff. I took the year to have a critical look at my application...and my performance in the interview...much to my dismay...and believe me it was difficult and hurtful...I concluded for a number of SPECIFIC reasons...I came across terribly in my interview. I applied this year...got another interview...and you can BET I will do things very differently this year. Will I gain acceptance this year? I'm not sure...but I believe this past year has given me the opportunity to take off the "rose coloured glasses" and have a hard, honest look at who I am, why I want to go into medicine, what my strengths and weaknesses are and what messages I want the adcoms to hear this year. One thing is for sure...as a future doctor...and a leader...one has to be able to self-critique...know where one has gone wrong if a mistake has been made...and take steps to improve...this is one of the central characteristics of a great leader and, as well, doctor. Are you serious? You did not do anything significantly different in the last three years that would warrant a re-vamp of your auto??????? That has to be rectified. I agree with enoughofthis on this one too. I had a great application last year, as evidenced by the fact that I received an interview. However, this year, my application was substantially improved...I've done a ton of stuff over the last year...I have learned and grown...gained new perspectives...and I wanted this reflected in my application. I'm not sure how the review process works at MAC...but over 3 years of applications, I would think there could be a very good chance one of the individuals reviewing answers could have seen them before. Now, imagine yourself as a reviewer seeing the same answer again...to me, that would suggest the individual isn't really that serious about medicine...they just submitted the "template" again. Medicine, at its very core, is about objectivity, continuous improvement and learning...I personally believe that your application and one's approach to the application process should reflect that as well. So your auto was great--super. BUT what was your GPA? Enough of the mac people on this site--GPA is HUGE at Mac. Just as it is anywhere else. If your auto was sufficient to pull up your percentile (without the help of a healthy GPA) great--but you will still be low on the list. Mac is picking a PACKAGE--you have to be exceptional in all ways. I don't know about GPA and Mac...I'll assume, as enoughofthis has pointed out, that GPA IS important. I think, however, that the last sentence in the above quote is the key...they are picking a PACKAGE -- you have to be exceptional in all ways. I think this is true for all med schools. The days of getting into med school just because you have a perfect GPA are over...all med schools seem to be looking for people who are well balanced and exceptional in all facets of life...academics...personal life...volunteering...interpersonal skills...etc., etc. My thought, DPT, is that something is obviously not going well during your interview (assuming your GPA is decent, of course). I think, as evidenced by the fact that you have had two interviews, you know how to write and you are more than capable of getting an interview. What I would strongly suggest taking a look at is what is happening, honestly, in your interviews. You've had two chances...and were not able to snag a spot. It may be "bad luck"...but somehow I doubt it...I believe, if as enoughofthis has pointed out, if you take a hard, honest look at what you're doing there will be tons of room for improvement. Luck? Yeah, I little helps but if you are an exceptional candidate--i.e. GREAT GPA (over 3.80 is a must to be in this category); great extra-curs; great auto; proven capacity to be a self-directed learner and able to thrive with PBL; great interviews; great personality; great referees (yeah, sorry DPT but that may be what sunk you); well-rounded, mature......you will be chosen. If you are weak in one or more of these areas...your situation is more precarious. Simple as that. I think this is key...the better you can demonstrate your strengths in ALL of these areas the better chance you have of getting an acceptance. I think this is a great summary of "criteria" that interviewers look for in a candidate. By the way: I am a proud graduate of Mac. I have interviewed plenty of people like DPT. You would be surprised how little luck factors in and although the process may seem subjective, patterns do emerge with each applicant. When you have a series of people who assess you as being a good candidate but not a great one and you don't have a past history of significant accomplishments, you are unlikely to be chosen. I think this is also a great point...the process is NEVER going to be entirely objective at any school...it can't be. That being said...it's not an N-of-1 reviewing your application or scoring you on an interview...it's several people...and let's not forget that there are other applicants...many amazing candidates with incredible accomplishments...the bottom line is...somehow, you have to make yourself stand out...in a positive and unique way. As an example, I'm 39 years old...I met people at my interview last year in their early 20s who had accomplishments at this early age that made my jaw drop...am I going to compete with them on these things...I don't think so...but I can compete in unique areas that a 20-something year old can't possibly have had the opportunity to experience...e.g., having had several careers...experience in pharmaceuticals, healthcare, high-tech, vision research, market research, social research, etc., etc...having been laid off from very significant careers...having travelled extensively throughout the world...having been married, had two children, divorced, remarried...having been through significant medical illnesses...having watched and helped as my loved ones went through significant medical illnesses...anyway, I think you get the drift...although I don't compete on some things, I'm unique in other ways...these are the things I want the adcoms to see this year...what makes me "different than the typical"...what will enable me to bring a new spice to their class...a new perspective to medicine. Does a medical school want everyone in the class to be the same? I don't think so...they want a range of life skills, experiences and backgrounds to make the class rich in every possible way. I believe, in retrospect, what one needs to do...and what my plan is for this year...is to show how I shine as a unique individual. Finally, I think to chalk things up to "luck" isn't doing yourself any favours...I'm personally not into religion, totemism or fatalism...I believe my fate is in MY hands...and NOBODY will look out for me like I will. If you're serious about gaining entry to a med school you have to sit down and do the hard work...some may find it unpleasant...but...revisiting the unpleasant stuff (you know, the kinda stuff you like to repress...we all would like to) usually is quite fruitful... DPT...good luck with your other applications. enoughofthis...your experiences and opinions are extremely valuable...I hope there will be more opportunities to take advantage of them in respectful and honest interactions here. Peter P.S. I would have loved to apply to MAC, however, through self-discovery I fully realize that self-directed learning isn't for me...I need more structure that I gain through classroom time. Too bad...because the program at mac sound like lots of fun...I've met several graduates from mac (my wife is a practicing physician so many of our friends are physicians) and they have always had very pleasant things to say about the people, professors and the program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DPT Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 I always enjoy seeing how the written word gets misinterpreted - its really amazing that the corporate world survives on email. Just to clarify for "enoughofthis" and I hope you are still reading this thread b/c I appreciate criticism and value your comments. 1. First I apologize for not digging thru my old rejection letters and getting the specific numbers that you felt I was BS'ing and being dishonest about. So here goes… rejection letter dated 28 Aug 02 3000 applicants - 138 seats "approx 400 applicants were invited for interviews" my results autobiographical submission 97th percentile GPA - 67th percentile sim tutorial 55th percentile personal interview 44th percentile 3 referee’s – who knows!!! ---so since i finished in roughly the 50th percentile out of 400 interviewees, I can ‘honestly’ say that I placed around 200 in the list. For 138 seats Mac usually asks an additional 50-60 pers to be wait listed. This would mean that I was very close to being waitlisted. 2. I've reviewed my initial post and although it was fairly clear to me, obviously you thought I was complaining about not getting into medschool – this was not my intention. I am fully aware of my three step interview weaknesses, and in fact I have worked very had to overcome these issues for this years interview. My original vent surrounded only my failure on the written app this year. As you know the written app which determines if you will get an interview consists of only 3 determinates. The GPA, the response to 15 questions, and the autobiographical sketch. ----GPA - has not changed b/w years ----autobiog sketch - has changed tremendously b/c as you mentioned there are more things to do than sit around waiting for the Oct app date. Believe me, if you knew who I was there would be no question that my success and accomplishments are completely unrelated to medschool application. I have not tailored my life around medschool app, I feel the adcom has tailored their admission process around me. ----response to 15 questions - have changed only slightly - I felt my responses were still very valid and my feelings towards the questions haven't really changed much over the last three years ie"why do you want to be a doctor?", "why mac", "what is PBL" - I don't see how or why I would change these answers from year to year (especially knowing that i had found the winning mix in two previous years) From the posts above, I have found humour, frustration, sympathy etc etc. Thanks to all. Signed amused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sir charles Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 hi DPT, i'm surprised u weren't put on the wait list last year - your scores are higher than mine were last year (except for simulated tutorial - got the same as you) and i was placed on the wait list. i had great references (i think). r u confident about your references? maybe this is something to look into? what is mac looking for in a reference? how much weight is given to the reference in the final round? just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest enoughofthis Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 I am not planning on contributing to this forum because, given my position, it would not be appropriate. No, I am not on any selection committee at Mac (if I was I would have never written the last post) but I am for another school which will remain nameless. That being stated, I did book in today because I wanted to see if DPT responded, which I am pleased to see that he/she has. I don't think you were misinterpreted; my rant was regarding the posters more than you. I was calling for you to be honest because there is really no other way for you to be given any constructive assistance if we don't know the whole picture. With Mac, your hand will NOT be held; you will have to be able to critically evaluate yourself and others---evaluating others will, unfortunately, involve conflict. You are NOT better off avoiding that by being dishonest. Let's look at your situation---and I would hope that others will constructively contribute to this evaluation so we can get DPT into Mac asap. "3000 applicants - 138 seats "approx 400 applicants were invited for interviews" my results autobiographical submission 97th percentile GPA - 67th percentile sim tutorial 55th percentile personal interview 44th percentile 3 referee’s – who knows!!! ---so since i finished in roughly the 50th percentile out of 400 interviewees, I can ‘honestly’ say that I placed around 200 in the list. For 138 seats Mac usually asks an additional 50-60 pers to be wait listed. This would mean that I was very close to being waitlisted. Okay, your lack of an invite makes more sense this year. First of all, no you can't necessarily conclude that you were ~200 on the list--that deduction makes intuitive sense but not statistical sense. You were only stand-out strong in one area--your auto. Because of your *very good*--but not great--GPA, you barely met the cutoff for interview invites so you went into the interviews needing to WOW Mac and sorry, you don't seem to have done that. Just looking at your stats, I would say that the personal interview and sim. tut are what sunk you. BUT also make sure that your referees are solid; just don't have one writing that you'd be a terrrible dr (it happens more than you would think). Unfortunately, only you have the answers to why those did not go well BUT they are potentially easy to modify. The pats on the back and the "you can do it..." stuff is great but what you really need to do is to critically evaluate yourself, your attributes, your performance, etc and be HONEST, HONEST HONEST about your strengths, weaknesses and limitations. I based my assessment on your extremely high auto score--what is going on here DPT? Is it easier to put your feelings down on paper? Do you have trouble organizing your thoughts/opinions? Why weren't the Mac people given a glimpse of who wrote those great essay responses? With the sim tutorial, it would appear as though you struggled with the emotional intelligence test and/or you lack group skills--these are difficult skills to acquire and lacking them is very problematic. I can not give you advice in this area (not appropriate) BUT I hope that your fellow posters can provide you with some of their personal insights into these areas. Mayflower's advice is excellent. I was shown a post by Carolyn regarding preping for the interview that was also excellent. Are you sure Mac is the right school for you? I am not questioning this since I don't know you but you and every other applicant need to ask yourself this. So you didn't get an invite this year? DPT: understand this: you were on the very lower end of the interview cut offs previous years. This year you had to compete against an extra 800 applicants--and from what I have heard, this year's group was not only quantitatively better but, as well, qualitatively better than previous years. You were up against an amazing group of individuals. That does not negate any of your accomplishments or qualities but it is unfortunately the nature of the game. You may have been great but the others were a bit better. I am concerned about your auto remaining the same--have you really not grown as a person over the last few years. MAc is about life-long learning and personal growth. Did you not change or were you perhaps too scared to change any of your answers since they scored so high in previous years? That is fine, I suppose but it is imperative that you changed and grew as a person. Changes should be occurring on a daily basis let alone a yearly basis. You also need to not play it so safe and let the Mac people know who you are--that is scary but it is necessary. Both of you need to figure out if you are suited for one another. Your rant is over. May I suggest you start another thread and have it be a 'let's be brutally honest because I want to be a dr and I want to go to Mac" thread. Absolutely, share information and insights freely with fellow posters---this is an excellent skill-building activity. There are so many ways to improve your emotional intelligence and group skills (but I am telling you--these are emotionally draining skills to acquire). Why? Because they are LEARNED skills. They involve diplomacy and taking the perspective of others--this requires great skill, an open mind, and signficant maturity. BUT DPT, they are indeed learnable. AND the good part of these endeavors? Well, regardless of your med school status, you will end up the better person for it. Off you go...you have a lot of work to do. P.S. I forgot to mention that the interview invite is decided based upon your auto responses and your GPA and NOT your sketch--those who made the interview decisions had no access to your activity profile. Your profile guides the 3 on 1 interview but it is not specifically assessed. Remember: it is the pkg that Mac is assessing---to put it bluntly: you gotta work it and show them who you are. Just like me and every other poster: they don't know you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Although I can not condone the cantor/tone of some of the above posts, I can agree with the content of the criticism. Indeed it looks like when someone gets a rejection from MAC, and from anywhere for that matter, AFTER interviewing it was obviously something that happened at the interview/tutorial. As stated by "enoughofthis" one really must reflect on what one did or said at the interview, and rather than agonize over it, pick up on it and make a course of action. Although I can't comment specifically why someone gets an invite to consecutive years and gets rejected outright on the third, I must reiterate that indeed the process is subjective, and it always can and should be. The recent applicant load also likely affected one's standing; there were obviously a lot of solid candidates but I have no friends enrolled at Mac and have no "inside" info so I can't go further than pure speculation. Finally, and I'm not being facetious, if anyone has a way to make the process OBJECTIVE I would also truly like to hear about those suggestions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 First, about the numbers game: It may be, indeed, that for some reason the OP's submission was marked really harshly this year, for any reason ranging from huge unfairness to not having updated it or whatever. On the other hand, it's just as likely that his numbers happened to drop slightly this year, and he just happened to miss the interview cutoff. None of us have any idea what the percentile values REALLY mean, right? Is 97th percentile really a percentile, in the sense that many people are around the 50th, and very few are in the high 90's? I doubt it. In which case you would EXPECT a range of, say, +/- at least 5% in the scoring from year to year. I'd also expect that kind of range in GPAs from year to year. So if a 97/67 dropped, say, to a 92/62, it's totally reasonable that that score isn't enough to put the OP in the top 10% or so. Nothing to do with a bad submission, just a numbers game. Second, about luck: I don't think talking about luck belittles anybody who got an interview - those people deserved it. But, let's face it, lots of people who didn't get an interview deserved it too! And of that large pool of deserving people, there's a big dose of luck about who happens to get the interview this year. I'm picturing the people who read the autobiographical submissions. I sincerely doubt that they read every submission and think to themselves "This is DEFINITELY a 6 out of 7!" Anybody who has graded papers knows that it just doesn't work that way. Sometimes you wonder if it should be a six or a seven, and you take your best guess. Given that the difference between a couple of 6's and a couple of 7's could easily be the difference between getting into Mac or not, I think we have to acknowledge that yeah, luck DOES play a role here. Not the only role, but it's certainly part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sir charles Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 well, not that it matters... but i'm still confused... my mac "scores" were worse than DPT's (lower auto sketch, lower interview, lower gpa, and same simulated tutorial). but i was waitlisted last year... hmmmm. although other areas could be improved on, i think DPT you should look into your references. as enoughogthis mentioned, there are a few "this person would make a bad doc" refs... all of my references know me well and have seen me in work and interpersonal settings. in addition, each, voluntarily, provided me with a copy of what they wrote... also, even though i could have had more "high profile" refs, i asked those who i felt knew me best - in both personal and work-related/ academic ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sporter1992 Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 Does the collation group have access only to the scores, or, do they have access to written comments, let say, by the 3on1 interview panel? Perhaps this can explain why sir charles, with lower scores still got waitlisted? (the presense of non-numeric comments) Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peachy Posted March 9, 2003 Report Share Posted March 9, 2003 When the Mac admissions guy came to speak at my school, he gave the impression that there is a holistic aspect to the final decision. So they might look for evidence of different criteria - maybe you got decent scores on everything because you're really personable, but then there's NO evidence for academic excellence or something. It needs to be balanced. Or so he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mtws Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Congratulations to all that made the cut! Some good reading in this thread. Deep thoughts. Here's my two cents if anyone is still listening: If there were enough spots in medical schools to except every candidate who meets the minimum academic requirements then most of us would already be there. There just aren't enough spots, even relative to the number of great applicants. I truly believe that many excellent would-be-Doctor's out there will never be accepted, and that's a crying shame. There must be hundreds of legitimate candidates, applying to medical schools in Ontario alone, that just won't get in this year, or ever. Each year, many re-apply for admission in subsequent years and still don't get in (like me ). And many continue to apply year after year after year and still don't get in (like, um, me :\ ). And as these applicants make annual improvements, one real consequence to expect is an inflation of the 'type' of application that is acceptable. Am I wrong in assuming this? Doesn't this make our only option to out-pace each other in annual performance? Here's a thought - What would be so wrong with giving bonus marks for tenacity? 0] Or giving the top portion of the 'waitlistees' a spot in a subsequent class? :rolleyes (Wishful thinking I'm sure!) I've been applying to medical schools for quite some time now and each year my application improves slightly and each year I feel as though I'd make a great physician and excel in medical school. But each year, if I'm not rejected out-right, due in part to my relatively low undergraduate GPA, then I'm waitlisted, and go on with life stuck in the vortex of wanting a spot, and feeling as though I deserve a spot, and never actually getting a spot, and re-applying with a "this has got to be my year" attitude, and waiting again for the bad news. (Sadly, having completed a graduate degree and moved on to a teaching position at a community college, there isn't much I can do to improve on my academic record. And straight "A's" in grad school doesn't seem to have helped that much.) I was thinveloped by Mac again this year. But next year I will try again. Hoping that the stars will align. What else can be done? I may forever only be a slightly-above-average applicant but I gotta keep trying. Cheers and good luck to you all, Have a great day, kiss your loved ones, smile at a stranger, and always dance like no ones watching and love like it's never going to hurt! Matt See you next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Matt: I know we've been at odds before but today I would like to build on one of your insights. I think what happens is that despite the incredible quality of applicants going up annually, the number invited does not; in other words, there is a static, non-positive relationship. A change in this regard could indeed improve one's chances. For example, despite the mega increase this year at Mac, the typical ~400 applicants are interviewed--there was no increase! However, that said, I wonder if the applicant load dipped really low (as I hear it did at some schools) if Mac would alternatively DECREASE the number interviewed. Food for thought! Nonetheless, it looks like because of the competition a 3.6 or 3.7 GPA or a 6 or a 7 score on the submission likely would have created a make or break situation for any given applicant this year particularly! I don't have any advice for you specifically, because this was only my first time applying. What do I know about the process? Precious little, except to say that I worked an INSANE amount of time on that submission. I'm sorry about your news, but I hope you get word from one of the other schools to which you applied! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wileycoyote Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 I think the discussion surrounding "is it luck?" or are the chosen ones really the ones with the superior essays is an interesting one. I believe the ones who received interviews likely did have superior written responses. I don't think there is much 'luck' involved, but what is involved in getting an interview at Mac is your ability to write prose. I believe that this, like many artistic talents can be learned, but primarily has an innate component. Some people are more gifted, natural writers. Just like you can _learn_ to draw or paint, and you can work on it to get better, some people just have a gift. I believe I am gifted with numbers, I immediately grasp logical and mathematical concepts, and work with this every day. Unfortunately there is no online mathematical challenge test as part of the pre-interview selection process I guess this all begs the question - are they looking for future novelists or doctors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MayFlower1 Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 wileycoyote, This is an interesting question: I guess this all begs the question - are they looking for future novelists or doctors? I personally believe that many of the skills involved in answering the "15 dreaded questions" are quite relevant to the application process. When they analyze the essays, my personal belief is that they are looking for many of the following things: 1) Given pretty unlimited amounts of time (i.e., several months at least), can a candidate communicate his/her thoughts in an organized fashion? 2) Is the candidate meticulous or is the essay full of typographical errors, etc. 3) Is the candidate serious about getting into McMaster? Have they taken time to put some thought into their essays or have they just thrown something together at the last minute? 4) Is the candidate well-rounded? Does he/she have a variety of life experiences (academic, professional, personal) from which he/she can draw to answer very broad questions? 5) Is the candidate able to demonstrate that they have learned anything from these experiences? 6) Is the candidate able to take a broad base of information (i.e., life experiences), synthesize the learning or "net out" and come to some solid conclusions with respect to their motives for being a doctor, etc.? I could go on and on, however, I think you get what I'm trying to say. Could they use another type of test, for example, mathematics? Probably, however, that would assume that enough people in the population are good enough at math to use this as a broad base test. Writing, on the other hand, is a skill that everyone having completed university should have mastered to some degree. I also believe that one's writing is quite indicative of one's psyche. I met my second wife on-line. Both my wife and I were busy professionals. Neither of us were either interested in trying to meet people at bars or activities nor did we have the time. The "net out" (pardon the pun...it was intentional) was that we met on-line and communicated for a few months prior to actually meeting. I learned a ton about what she was like on the inside. Communicating through writing (she didn't want to send me a picture as she, like me, was nervous about using the net to meet people...you never know what kind of freaks you can meet) enabled me to learn a lot about who she was, how she thought, what was important to her, etc. What a surprise to find out she was strikingly beautiful as well! ...anyway, I diverge. To sum up, I actually believe the written part of the Mac application is quite amazing, assuming (and I do) that they look for these (and more) types of performance metrics. I look forward to other perspectives on the subject! Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest macdaddyeh Posted March 10, 2003 Report Share Posted March 10, 2003 Pete: Your response was pretty much "write"on!:lol I believe that someone who can write articulately also probably thinks and speaks articulately. Wileycoyote, just as you proclaim yourself great at math, I proclaim myself great at writing--it is one of my skills--I've never had problems with spelling or coming up with thesis statements or stringing sentences together because, as you said, it just comes to me withouth too much trouble (we'll see if it works to my advantage at the interview). You're likely correct that a preinterview math test would weed people out, but I think that is what the MCAT is suggested to do and hence, all but two schools require it! I'm not downplaying the relative importance of math, but I doubt any serious math phobes should or would even dare apply to medicine (Dr. X, was that 10CC's or 100 CC's:lol ) Mac I guess is SO different that I think they use that submission to find out not only about your desire to be a physician, but as Peter said, what you know about the Mac program, etc. ALOT of information can be gleaned from someone's submission aside from the information they provide. The MANNER in which they write likely indicates if they are creative, articulate, thoughtful, rushed, self-inflating, careful or careless--all from grammar, spelling and structure (NOT content). So, in the end, I believe strongly in the Mac process of providing a written submission. If you think about it, most other schools also require essays, but they are scrutinized all the more at MAC. Another thing I think they are testing is your simple ability to communicate in the English language. Assessors probably are able to tell if you Speak English well or not or if the writer can not even convey their thoughts properly. I was also VERY careful to answer the question EXACTLY as asked, so I am sure that during this process they are probing to see if one can follow instructions (another necessary quality for medicine). For example, I remember going to the MAC session last year in which the rep advised us to answer the WHOLE question EXACTLY as asked--do not leave blanks, do not put "not applicable" do not use point form. etc. I hope this was helpful, and as you can see the bottomline is that an assessor can likely tell WHO you are not simply from the content but also from the style, spelling, creativity and your succinctness. I really look forward (if I am honoured with admission) to assessing the submissions one day. At that point I can't really gauge the breadth and depth of candidates as an "outsider," so at this point I'm only hypothesizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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