seeking advice about the program from current med students

[Guest uwoheather]

hi,

 

i was accepted to mac and ottawa and i am torn between the schools. both have advantages and disadvantages for me, and i was wondering if the year round schooling is really stressful, how many hours a week are spent in tutorial or with patients in first year, do you get holidays and if so, when are they and how long, and overall impressions of the program. do most people in the program like it? i hear all kinds of things about it being very stressful. is this true?

i would REALLY appreciate the viewpoint of someone who has been there already!

thanks again

[Guest WesternGirl]

Hi Heather,

 

Congrats on having a choice about which med school to attend!

 

There is a thread in the Mac forum about a typically week for a first year med, so you might want to look that up. Basically, we have about 6 hours of tutorials per week (3 hours/tutorial X 2 tutorials), about 2-3 hours of clinical skills (where you usually get to see patients), 2-3 hours of large group sessions (aka lectures with the whole class) and 2 hours of small group sessions (aka lectures with part of the class). Also, we have CPCs for 2 hours every week (where we present diseases as a group to a third of the class...this starts in unit 2). Most groups set up anatomy sessions for about 1 hour/week. That is it in terms of mandatory stuff. A total of about 16 hours/week.

 

On top of this, you can set up horiztonal electives, but the amount of time you put into it depends totally on you. Patient contact per week is the clinical skills (2-3 hours) plus any horizontal electives you set up.

 

Holidays...we get so few! We get two weeks in Christmas, one week in August (one WHOLE week) in the first year. In second year, again two week in Christmas and then I think two weeks in the summer (we're progressing!). And third year ends in May, so I don't think they get anything more than the Christmas break.

 

The whole year round schooling is starting to get to me. I could really use a week off right about now! But, it's not *that* difficult. In unit 2, my tutorials ended on the Monday, so my group pretty much had about 5-6 days off before the next unit...that is group specific. As well, in your group, you may decide to give yourselves a long weekend off...that just means you have to do more work later on, but at least the whole weekend is free. We did that for the May long weekend.

 

And in the summer of first year, we have 8 weeks to do electives...so we're not in class the whole summer long. Many people are going back to their home towns, or using the time to travel and do electives elsewhere in Canada and around the world. (BTW, the one week off can be taken anywhere in these 9 weeks...you can take the week off after Unit 3 and then do 8 weeks of electives, or put it somewhere in the middle, or at the end...this way, you can coordinate it with family members, if you wish)

 

I am really enjoying the program. It was hard at first, and even sometimes now, to get used to PBL and not being examined the way we used to in undergrad. I find it a lot less stressful as well as more enjoyable, because I'm not studying for an exam, more for myself and for my performance in tutorials (where we're constantly being evaluated).

 

In terms of stressful, it depends on the kind of person you are. If you're someone who needs exams & tests to tell you how you are doing, this could be stressful, since we don't really have tests that often, and they don't count for a certain percentage of the final mark, as they do in undergrad. On the other hand, if your someone who gets completely stressed at the idea of writing exams and absolutely hates them, then this program might lessen your stress.

 

Well, I hope this helps! If you have any other questions, just let us know.

[Guest k8termd]

Hi Heather,

I completely agree with what Westerngirl had to say. I too have found this program WAY less stressful then both my undergrad and PT. I really feel like Mac is a completely noncompetitive environment and I can learn purly for myself. The adminstration here is great, so supportive and they really make the environment relaxed.

Although we get few breaks, I feel like the year has gone so fast that I haven't really noticed that we have gone to school all year! There were moments that I really wanted a day or two off but you perservere. I imagine that is what it is like in most programs...

Please keep in mind that although you do have lectures mac is mostly self directed learning. You are given LOTS of direction regarding what you want should be studying, resources lists you can find the information in and most tutors make sure the group is on the right track. There are lots of checks and balances to make sure you are learning and you are evaluated constantly. BUT having said that if you are someone who really needs to be spoon fed information, I would reconsider Mac.

Overall, I love McMasters program. I think it is organized, innovative and actually really fun. The school is great, the people are great, and to top it off, we are done one year earlier than everyone else!! I wouldn't want to be studying medicine anywhere else.

Congrats on your acceptances and good luck making your decision!

K

[Guest macMDstudent]

To me, having been in the workforce for several years before starting back at school, I have more free time now, more time at home (although a lot of it is at my desk) and more weeks off in a year than I took while working. The rest of your life is year round work, you'll have to get used to it sometime!

 

I think the other major advantage is that it is 3 years not 4 (actually 32 months!). Would you rather have one more school year of tuition/debt/student living or one more year of a physicians lifestyle and income? For me, that was a big factor.

 

Besides that, the whole programme being more suited to my learning style and allowing me not to repeat a lot of course work that I have done before in previous education. I can make the program what I want, directed to my interests.

 

Hope that helps. It is a good dilemma to have! You can't go wrong with whatever decision you make in the long run. The world is your oyster!

[Guest Namgalsip]

Hey uwoheather,

 

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, trying to decide between Mac and Ottawa. Can you PM me with your email so we can chat about this.

 

Thanks.

 

Nams

[Guest macdaddyeh]

Hi Heather:

 

I'm *NOT* currently a med student, so pardon my intrusion, but this same topic came up in a discussion with my friend who applied to Mac, Ottawa and U of T (she just accepted the latter). She also doesn't post here, so I'll tell you a few of her opinions (pros/cons) of Mac vs. Ottawa

 

MAC

-PBL only (edited to say large group session also!--sorry)

-Hamilton is ugly and crime-ridden

-close to Toronto

-one year shorter than Ottawa

 

OTTAWA

-more balanced curriculum (PBL plus lectures)

-beautiful (but not too lively) city

-English/French speaking politics (I won't touch that topic!)

-better reputation (I have no idea what she meant here except that she thinks there is subtle discrimination against "Mac" students)

-e-curriculum and personal laptop required/useful

 

So there are a few of the albeit superficial things that she used to weigh her choices...Keep in mind she ultimately chose Toronto because of family reasons, and she also got accepted to dentistry so the above should not necessarily sway your opinion.

 

I know you'll make the choice that's good for you. I recommend you also think about living costs, proximity to family, quality of living---In other words, think outside the box of the actual med school and think about the city you'll be living in and what it has to offer

[Guest k8termd]

Macdaddyeh,

Correction.

Mac DOES have lectures. It is not ONLY PBL. Yes the majority of your learning is done in PBL style but we do have lectures for approx 4-6 hours per week. Please read Westerngirls first post and this thread:

pub125.ezboard.com/fpreme...=249.topic

[Guest MA2003]

Hey Heather and Nams,

 

Can I get into the e-mail chat?....I was also accepted to both, and while I definitely have my leanings, any discussion would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

[Guest Namgalsip]

Hey MA2003 and uwoheather,

 

Do you mind posting your email addresses?

 

Ma2003, what's direction are you leaning toward?

[Guest uwoheather]

hi guys,

 

please feel free to e-mail me at any time at hawk1818@hotmail.com and we can discuss things further. i would love to hear if you have any information about the program that i don't know about!

heather

[Guest jmh2005]

This is a difficult decision and you need to make the decision that is right for you.

 

Alot of the differences between the schools have been mentioned...I think a big one is the 3 vs. 4 years of schooling and the lack of vacation time.

 

This can be a tiring program I have 2 weeks left before electives and I am burned out!! And I was used to only getting 3 weeks a year for vacation and I'm still tired!! I love it, but I'm tired!! Not having much vacation is good (I want to be done in 3 vs 4 years) but I'm now 28. If you are younger (and I think you said you've only done 3 years) maybe an extra year isn't that big of a deal for you. So that is definately something to think about.

 

As my bud K8termd said...WE DO HAVE LECTURES..they just don't call them that...BUT not as many as Ottawa...

 

Are you a person that can have a whole day "off" and organize your day such that you can get through a chapter on liver physiology, an article or two on alcoholic liver cirrhosis, liver function tests, psychosocial effects of ETOH use get to the gym and do your grocery shopping????

(I don't think this is going to happen today!!)... you have more 'free time' at Mac, but it does need to be spent reading and learning about the issues you set in tutorial (what we do most of)....Ottawa has a good balance but I think it is still more traditional with more traditional exams...mind you we still have exams...actually we had our 1st OSCE last night and it was an amazing learning experience...what you can learn in a year...incredible!!!

 

And I think the issue about reputation is a 'non-issue'...as has been said numerous times before, Mac students have been able to get spots in MANY coveted programs for residency...Plastics, ENT, Radiology, urology, etc...so I think that reason is just plain poor...

 

As for the city comparison...I like Ottawa, too cold in the winter for me...but overall minus the politics, is a nicer city in my opinion HOWEVER...the west portion of Hamilton.... Westdale, Dundas, Ancaster, is as nice as any other city...as i have said before the north and north east parts aren't as desirable (but you'll never go there!)...

 

I really wish those of you best of luck in your decision, but make the decision that is right for you!!

 

Take care

[Guest IRNBRUD]

"Hamilton is ugly and crime-ridden"

I have to weigh in on this one. I thought the exact same thing when I moved here a little over a year ago. Since, I have decided that this is more a reputation problem than reality.

Like many cities, the downtown core has degenerated significantly. However, there are some gems (farmers market, beautiful public library, Tivoli and Aquarius theatres etc) to be found downtown. Like most places the burbs have flourished around Hamilton and there are box stores and shopping malls a-plenty.

The real beauty is in the natural areas around Hamilton and within the city itself. Right behind the university you have the north and south shore trails along Hamilton harbor and also the beautiful Cootes paradise. The Hamilton Conservation Authority www.hamrca.on.ca/ has lots of info and perty pictures.

The Hamilton Naturalists club has also been working hard to keep the beauty in Hamilton www.hamiltonnature.org/

Did I mention that the Bruce Trail and the wondrous Niagara Escarpment pass right through the core of the city?

Finally, the beauty of the Royal Botanical Gardens is tough to surpass www.rbg.ca/

Hamilton has the Bulldogs and the Tigercats, Westdale Theatre, and Copps Collosium, and how about the fact that is the hometown of Tim Horton!!

As for the crime....well, all large cities have it. Toronto and Ottawa are no exceptions. While I haven't read the report, the pretty graphs show decreases for the most part over the past 10 years or so, and that has to be a good sign.www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/2002 YearEnd.pdf

 

On the bad side? Hamilton smells like rotten eggs when the wind blows the wrong way and they have some twisted priorities when it comes to the environment. There are a lot of one-way streets which can be frustrating, although watching people freak as they drive the wrong way down my street provides much amusement for the slow times

Hope this provides some useful info. Just a reminder, I'm not from the Hammer, so it isn't personal. I have just managed to find a lot of beauty here and all things considered, it isn't a bad place to live.

Cheers,

IB

[Guest macdaddyeh]

IRNBRUD:

 

Purely on a side-note, thank you for making me laugh at the point when I'm not really in the laughing mood. After leaving the MAc Info session last year it was really late at night and I had to turn around somewhere around Dundas West when I realized after doing a U-turn that I was on a one way street! AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! I literally thought I was going to get killed. After doing a little more investigating, you're right that Hamilton has tonnes of one-way streets!:rolleyes

 

Nonetheless, you lightened my mood...

 

And as an aside again, it is true that every city has its bad and good points...For some reason my TV (no cable) only picks up Hamilton News and I live in TO..After seeing so much of the nasty city-hall arguments and news everyday about murders and break-ins, *if* I get in, I would seriously consider commuting (not that Toronto is any better;) .

[Guest IRNBRUD]

Glad I got a chuckle out of ya macdaddyeh

Now....go hug them babies!

IB

[Guest grandmellon]

I thought I was the only one that tried to do a U turn on dundas west!!! :Rollin Thats hilarious!!! there is a sign for the 403 (i think its the 403..or is it the 406?) but it doesnt tell what street to turn down so I kept going along dundas west and realized that I must have passed it So I tried to do the U turn... definitely not a good Idea! They should warn us about that in the invite letter package!! :lol

[Guest McMastergirl]

I'm doing an elective in Ottawa right now, and I just have to say that Hamilton is WAY easier to drive in than Ottawa!

 

I really wanted to go to Ottawa originally... mostly for personal reasons (closer to home), but I went to Mac (because I was accepted there!) and if I had it to do again I'd choose Mac.

 

I won't reiterate what has already been said, but a few more points:

 

1) If you're gung-ho for peds, Ottawa of course has an amazing children's hospital, CHEO, which is where I'm doing my elective right now. Hamilton peds... not so much. Although overall it really doesn't matter, because Mac students match as well to peds as any other school

 

2) Hamilton, the city, has its advantages. It's close to Toronto. It has seven hospitals. It is surprisingly pretty in some areas. I for one have not found it to be stinky!

The rent can be substantially cheaper than Ottawa as well, or so I've heard.

 

3) In talking to my roommate here, who is a med student at U of O, she finds it somewhat competitive, which I have to say I haven't found Mac to be at all. Of course that is only 2 opinions.

 

4) Mac is low stress because you don't have exams to cram for... which means you can take little "mini-vacations" as you see fit. Take a weekend off here and there. I don't find the year-round thing to be too tiring or stressful - but then again I did a Masters, and you don't get the summers off in grad school either.

 

5) From talking to med students at Ottawa, PBL is NOT the same as it is at Mac... they have groups of 8 or more students for one thing, and for another, they are all hooked up to their laptops, which could be distracting to say the least!

 

That's all for now!

M

[Guest gucio93]

I must say I agree with all the positives! I have loved the style of McMaster learning from the moment I read about it prior to applying to med school. I also don't find it stressful that there are no long term vacations ... but then again I also went to grad school and worked for a bit before going to med school so I hadn't had a 4 month vacation in a while. I absolutely love the "at your own pace" studying - I hated cramming for exams and I think that learning for the sake of learning and not for the sake of getting a good grade is fabulous.

[Guest koft]

I am not a med student, but have many interactions with med students/residences.

 

So i am not going to bias to either Mac / OU.

 

Depends on your study habit and your preference. Didiatic vs. open discussion. Mac gears on the latter and OU gears towards the former. So if you are very same motivated, you will be quite successful in both program, but if you need someone to kick start you, i believe OU would be better suited for u. I do found Mac student / new grads only tends to be more compassionate and better communicator to patients vs. other ontario school med school grads, however, they are a little bit weaker on some aspects of clinical skills (which residency will remediate that). But they still pass the licensing!!

 

Mac program is a bit less stressful compared to OU.

 

Either way, both schools are top 25% in North America.

 

I hope I didn't offended anyone, and was not intended to.

 

Good luck with your choice.

[Guest jmh2005]

Koft...I would probably agree...

 

Especially on the motivation factor and the clinical skills...

 

At Mac, you do need to be very motivated...or you won't be all that successful...

 

Also, on the clinical skills sides of things...it totally depends on the preceptors you get in the units of the program...I've been lucky and have had great preceptors and feel I'm really developing my skills, but just last night I was rotation through the OSCE with someone who said she has had poor preceptors (not that they are bad physicians, its often that they just don't have time, cancel or aren't great teachers...)...but like you said, there is always more learning to be done during residency!!

 

Thanks for your insight!