Why is MD considered more prestigious than PhD?

[skragh]

I disagree that medicine does not require critical thinking, and thats its all memorizing protocol.

 

Although I dont have experience in medicine (yet haha) I do know that in my current program, which is nursing, critical thinking is probably the most important aspect. The people who simply memorize procedures aren't going to get anywhere. No patient is ever the same, and you need to be able to think critically to apply what you know to any given situation, whether it be doing a simple procedure, or dealing with a patient with unexpected symptoms. You need to be able to pull everything you have learned together. Nothing is EVER textbook. And if you expect ever patient you come across to be a text book example of whatever, then your in for a surprise.

[MD1400]

Most MD's make life and death decisions daily, which is quite different than working or running your own lab. And most people in society realize this.

 

A researcher has his/her work peer reviewed before it is published and can reach a wide audience. There is a different kind of pressure in each job, you don't hear of PhD's being sued too often.

 

An interesting point is that most grad students receive stipends to support themselves during their education whereas med students are usually forced into debt with expensive tuition. So initially, there is a greater sacrifice for med students.

[GatewayMD]

I think one of the big reasons why MDs are more respected than PhD is because of the burden of responsibility. How many PhDs do you know that have killed people they are responsible for? MDs graduate and are expected to take responsibility for the lives of others.

 

Interesting food for thought, a flight controller will have more lives in their hand in one shift than a surgeon will in their entire career....

[AndyDude]

An interesting point is that most grad students receive stipends to support themselves during their education whereas med students are usually forced into debt with expensive tuition. So initially, there is a greater sacrifice for med students.

 

And not to mention grad students party harder than med students and have a life beside their working hours.

[stesha]

as for income being a factor - a univ prof has the potential to make as much as an MD. While an MD would BILL more over a year, after 30-40% overhead and taxes, not to mention no pension or benefits all divided by total hours worked, the overall result would likely be a very similar income. so , dont ever do medicine just for the $$ - there are many careers that are easier and make more!

[MD1400]

as for income being a factor - a univ prof has the potential to make as much as an MD. While an MD would BILL more over a year, after 30-40% overhead and taxes, not to mention no pension or benefits all divided by total hours worked, the overall result would likely be a very similar income. so , dont ever do medicine just for the $$ - there are many careers that are easier and make more!

 

I don't think a prof is likely to make as much as an MD. First off, in order to get a position as an assistant professor, let alone achieve tenure, you will need to do an undergrad, maybe a MSc, a PhD, most people do 2-3 post docs. That is anywhere from 12-16 years of university education. Once you are an assistant prof you will probably make something like 60-80 000. Not very many people make more than 100 000, the university makes this info available to all students to see (check it out).

 

An MD will require undergrad (3-4 yrs) MD (4 yrs), plus residency/fellowship (depends on what field 2-7 yrs). BUT once you are certified, there is a greater potential to earn a salary in excess of $150 000, and the more hours you put in the more you can make, up to a point.

 

There is no doubt that an MD has a more secure future (unless you are tenured as a PhD) and the potential to earn a greater income, despite the overhead. It is very difficult to achieve tenure as a university prof and earn a 6 figure salary.

[medisforme]

I disagree that medicine does not require critical thinking, and thats its all memorizing protocol.

 

Although I dont have experience in medicine (yet haha) I do know that in my current program, which is nursing, critical thinking is probably the most important aspect. The people who simply memorize procedures aren't going to get anywhere. No patient is ever the same, and you need to be able to think critically to apply what you know to any given situation, whether it be doing a simple procedure, or dealing with a patient with unexpected symptoms. You need to be able to pull everything you have learned together. Nothing is EVER textbook. And if you expect ever patient you come across to be a text book example of whatever, then your in for a surprise.

 

Believe me, once you're a nurse in the real world you'll see what i mean (as you can tell i am an RN). In almost four years of nursing i have had one patient where neither myself nor the doctors could figure out what was going on (related to the patients symptoms). In reality, you are ready for certain high risk patients to develop potential side effects or symptoms related to their disease and you take the appropriate action (which is usually following some sort of protocal and then phoning the doctor where close to 80% of the time you already know what they are going to order). Health care is really not like House MD despite what you may think.

By the way, i totally agree with most of the stuff you wrote, i just wouldn't call it critical thinking, i would call it competence.

[White-Tiger]

I only discovered a few months ago that an MD degree is "only" considered an undergraduate degree in canada (ie. on par with a bachelors; btw in most of the world you are granted a bachelors of medicine degree. Apparently, the only reason you are called doctor is because you are able to diagnose medical conditions).

 

Nope, sorry, but an MD degree in Canada is considered a Doctorate of Medicine. If someone only did their 4 years of med school, yes that would be considered an undergraduate degree. But after graduating and getting your MD, you must go thru POST-GRADUATE training (aka residency) to get a license to practice. And thus, overall an MD is considered a doctorate.

[stesha]

I am aware of the salary disclosure. I assume you are in Quebec, so maybe profs are not as well paid there. In Ontario, where I am, I have read in detail these lists. I have noticed many of my own profs on them, and I don't think it is as difficult as you assume to achieve a 6 figure income. Check out the Government of Ontario website. Also, I have never met a prof that regretted their career decision (although obviously there are), however it is not uncommon to hear this from MD's (although obviously some don't) given the current state of the health care system. I know a MD who only works in academia since he likes the benefits, hours, pension, etc. Don't get me wrong - I too would rather be an MD, but not because I think I can make more money, but rather I would rather interact with patients than do research.

[medisforme]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Medicine

 

my point is that in canada, its not considered on par with a doctor of philosophy (PhD) - which is considered a higher degree.

[stesha]

I agree that that the MD is NOT a doctorate degree and is not as high of a degree as a PhD - I am not arguing which is better, but they are NOT the same. A doctorate refers only to a PhD.

[MD1400]

I am aware of the salary disclosure. I assume you are in Quebec, so maybe profs are not as well paid there. In Ontario, where I am, I have read in detail these lists. I have noticed many of my own profs on them, and I don't think it is as difficult as you assume to achieve a 6 figure income. Check out the Government of Ontario website. Also, I have never met a prof that regretted their career decision (although obviously there are), however it is not uncommon to hear this from MD's (although obviously some don't) given the current state of the health care system. I know a MD who only works in academia since he likes the benefits, hours, pension, etc. Don't get me wrong - I too would rather be an MD, but not because I think I can make more money, but rather I would rather interact with patients than do research.

 

I am from Toronto. I know plenty of overworked profs at U of T that complain they do not make as much as MD's do. The hours of a PhD can be worse than that of an MD, I know first hand my research prof is very overworked and stressed-- with grad student supervision, many different projects going on at once, grant proposals that can often determine the fate of the lab, reviewing/writing papers, international meetings. For all this work the compensation is not as good.

 

Being a prof is not laid back. The competition is very intense to get the prime positions at good universities and earn tenure. It is much easier to get an MD, than become a university professor that earns more than $100 000.

[AndyDude]

The hierarchy between a MD and PhD are pointless. Both are important and complementary to each other so long the PhD has implication to health improvements (not literature, greek mythology).

 

And who the hell cares if MD is an undergraduate, for all I care it could a f*ing diploma equivalent of an apprenticeship of dry-walling. People are too much overworked with bogus titles. If you want to do PhD (or can get the fcuk in medicine) then go do it. What's the deal with which one is better? It's really annoying, and immature. As undergraduate we can't even comprehend the level of drive and passion people have for research, and same goes for medicine.

 

Now I wonder if 747 pilots are better than both doctor and researchers?

 

(I guess I am overworked with my upcoming exam, pardon my jack-assness)

[The Law]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Medicine

 

my point is that in canada, its not considered on par with a doctor of philosophy (PhD) - which is considered a higher degree.

 

I think we need to stop debating whose degree is "higher."

[medisforme]

Re: Andy dude

 

this is just a discussion dude (so chill out). I know the hierarchy doesn't matter, i just thought it was an interesting thing to start a thread about (and judging by the responses i think i was right.).

 

I don't know if its that time of month for you or what, but you'd better get used to being busy (and liking it) if you want to be a physician.

[daryn]

Actually I have never thought that an MD is more prestigious than PhD. It's like apples and oranges.

[AndyDude]

I am probably making an ass of myself here (and no I am not having a period. I think only girls have them) but here it goes...

 

I am just saying what's the deal here? Not all PhDs were once MD-wannabes and now that they are stuck with it, they must argue their value to society on par with doctors?

 

The biggest mistakes all of MD hopefuls make is consider PhDs as back up plans. And that's where we get the preconceived impression that MD must be better than PhD. And do not consider money and prestige in the equation. Movie stars and athletes out beat doctors in both criteria. So does it make any sense to start a thread "Why Paris Hilton is considered more prestigious than Surgeon General of US?"

 

Doctors get paid more, have more respect because as an average they have a greater impact on people's lives than researchers do. Out of the billions of dollars pumped into research only a fraction yields positive outcome (I am not saying we shouldn't spend, just pointing out a fact).

 

I am passionate about becoming a doctor, but also have tremendous respect to guys who work their asses of without fame (No House PhD yet) and relatively less money. But they are happy doing what they do. Leave them alone. And if medicine is what you're reaaaaaallly passionate about then I wish you all the luck. But it's immature to compare the two fields.

 

And lastly my sincerely apologies to those who think I am just bitter or looking to offend anyone. It's just that I have a different opinion to the majority of respondents.

 

Auf Wiedersehen!

[osmosis]

Question: Why is X considered more prestigious than Y?

 

Answer: $$$

 

Money is always the answer. MDs made 3x (at least) which PhDs make.

 

If the reverse were true, then everyone would be busting their humps to get into grad school, and medicine would be a relatively lackluster choice.

 

Works with medical specialties, too. You will notice a direct correlation between salary and prestige (in general).

 

The exceptions to this rule usually fall into a specific group of professions, call them the "adrenalin cohort". These jobs are extremely high prestige (think firefighter) but are paid relatively little. As an aside: I think people who risk their own lives to save others should be at the top of the pay scale, but they're not. Go figure.

 

The important point is this:

 

Money +/- prestige does NOT equal job satisfaction.

 

Do what you love because you love it. You aren't going to starve as a PhD. If that's what you really want to do, do it, because if you HATE your job day after day after day there's not enough money in the world to compensate you for that.

 

i agree with this statement. unfortunately, in our ever increasing materialistic ans superficial society, prestige is totally based on earning power, and with respect to cash,and MD alwasy does better than a Phd. it's sad, because without the tireless efoorst of many researchers in all sorts of fields, medicine, and society in general, would be deficient, and would not be enriched the way it is today. we owe almost everything that we know and do in society to researchers and academics.

 

the field of medicine is not built by doctors, but it is built by reserachers who have founbd the drugs, the protocols, the public health policies, surgical procedures, and cures. without Phd's, medicine and society would be in the dark ages.

 

much props to those out there getting MSc's and Phd's, and who love what they do. society owes you a great debt!

[Guest begaster]

Angrydude has won the thread.

[Dr. E77]

 

the field of medicine is not built by doctors, but it is built by reserachers who have founbd the drugs, the protocols, the public health policies, surgical procedures, and cures. without Phd's, medicine and society would be in the dark ages.

 

 

Agreed. That's exactly what I said. Both are complimentary to each other and not one is better than the other. There are only pre-conceived notions about each profession. Who cares if the other makes more money, as long as you are enjoying what you are doing. No amount of money can make up for hours spent at something you despise.

 

Cool discussion though.

 

Kind regards

 

Dr. E77

[Time]

Something else to think about is the fact that someone with a PhD or a commonly thought of researcher is probably someone you'd consider to be making groundbreaking discoveries/inventions or significant research/providing new knowledge for the human race (maybe exaggerated, but obviously so are many perceptions of MDs).

 

The thing is, think of how many thousands of meaningful discoveries, inventions etc. all came from people without PhD's. Many may have been in the past, but how many people want to spend 12-16 years as someone else mentioned, earning very little and potentially not EARNING your PhD in the end?

 

Because people with lesser university education (if any) have achieved or found big things, that may also be a reason as to why those with PhD's are less highly regarded as doctors. E.g. Bill Gates and Einstein - neither had significant university training when they made revolutionary propositions (although they were awarded honourary degrees later). How often has anyone in history saved someone's life when they were dying of fever, or drowning in their own blood, or having a heart attack etc. without being a doctor or nurse? And then that's another connection - nursing vs. MD. Clearly people have major respect for nurses, but present day protocols shine the light on doctors, even as someone else mentioned, a nurse may know what's needed 80% of the time.

 

Also, dentists and orthodontists - they're doctors, they're respected, sometimes they even share a year or more of class in med school with MD candidates, but I'd definitely say that medical doctors are more respected - maybe the lifesaving factor really is the biggest thing (which ties right into the 'adrenalin cohort' or similar term someone used for respect for firefighters etc.).

[Time]

The biggest mistakes all of MD hopefuls make is consider PhDs as back up plans. And that's where we get the preconceived impression that MD must be better than PhD. And do not consider money and prestige in the equation. Movie stars and athletes out beat doctors in both criteria. So does it make any sense to start a thread "Why Paris Hilton is considered more prestigious than Surgeon General of US?"

 

I just want to make the point that prestige isn't = fame all the time. Respect isn't fame either, and I think society on the whole has far more *respect* for a medical doctor than a partying celebrity, especially those who act very lewdly. There is a lot of respect for athletes, but prestige? Yes, it's prestigious to be the quarterback for the #1 team in the NFL... but the title of 'doctor' (of medicine) may be more prestigious to plenty of people. Not many medical doctors alive today may be that famous (in the public eye), similarly to many PhD holders. However, I'm sure if you asked most people over the age of 18 if they respected a physician more than an actor - the physician would win out.

 

Acting, being an athlete, even being a socialite all have challenges... but it's almost back to apples and oranges, the thing being that even though actors can be respected for their performances or looking good or going through a lot to get where they are - hello, the same can be said for a medical doctor and much more besides, which is where the respect starts mounting up.

[stesha]

maybe the life saving thing has something to do with it. if it was solely $$$ then the dentists would win out for sure!

[AndyDude]

Respect isn't fame either, and I think society on the whole has far more *respect* for a medical doctor than a partying celebrity, especially those who act very lewdly.

 

It's probably not true. Doctor are still perceived as humanly while celebrities are more like godly. Not for you or me, but "society on the whole".

 

There is a lot of respect for athletes, but prestige? Yes, it's prestigious to be the quarterback for the #1 team in the NFL... but the title of 'doctor' (of medicine) may be more prestigious to plenty of people.

 

True to some by not many. As much as I want to become doctor given my preferences and life experiences, if I had the physique and the stamina, I couldn't resist the money, fame, and not to mention women a quaterback for the #1 team in the NFL can get. Sounds harsh, but true.

 

However, I'm sure if you asked most people over the age of 18 if they respected a physician more than an actor - the physician would win out.

 

If you say so, but my vote is still for Brad Pitt (Angie is to damn spicy...).

[Microbiodude]

"Interesting food for thought, a flight controller will have more lives in their hand in one shift than a surgeon will in their entire career...."

 

True.... but do you only accept passengers who are dying or sick?