Salary in Family medicine

[Rayven]

However, the presence of disparity should be realized. As it stands now, most people are either blissfully unaware, or just ignorant, of how "two-tiered" our health care system really is.

Whether or not people know, I don't understand why you would bring this disparity up or this "two-tieredness" up in this conversation unless it was to promote more disparity which Ms. C quickly addressed.

 

There are, according to the WHO, more than 10 other countries that have better systems than Canada. We have to re-evaluate our way of doing things.

Old news. Just because we should re-evaluate our health care system does not mean we should just go with anything.. and of all things more disparity.

 

And I agree with futuredoc. He has a goal, and he has expectations. He wants these expectations realized, and he knows that there are possibilities within medicine for such things to come to fruition. Nobody should criticize him for wanting to get paid well - most if not all of us want to get paid well. If we didn't, the ROAD specialties wouldn't be so sought after.

I criticized future_doc because she clearly states she wasn't considering family medicine because of the money but also because she felt bad for patients because of assembly-lined health care. But then as soon as desiguy8179 said they were grossing $300,000/year as a family practitioner suddenly she was interested in family meds again. If you want to say that you're going into medicine for financial reasons then I don't have a problem with that. It's only when you try to pretend that you're so righteous and compassionate by touting that you put your patients first when really you hold your pay check at a much higher priority that I find rather sickening. Future_doc was saying somewhere that her idea of "giving back to society" was to be able to afford to pay for her kids to go to private school...

 

Gee... won't someone help me give back to society by paying for me to go to Harvard?

 

I do think most people that pursue specialties, especially ROAD, do do it for the financial reasons and for the hours. Of course I do believe some people are genuinely interested in dealing with say acne for the rest of their career but for the most part I think money is the key motivating factor.

 

Because its not total earnings, or average earnings relative to the entire population that is important. Rather, it is earnings relative to your peers.

 

There is always going to be a sense of resentment for one's own path in life when they see their old classmate, who was no better a student in medical school(and maybe even worse) drive around in their Porsche and live in a sweet downtown penthouse condo just because they landed a specialty that is very lucrative. One might feel a bit underappreciated when on the wrong end of such a pay disparity, and will thus "phone-in" their work from that point on. It happens. It's common. It's the first step towards burn-out.

You'll never be satisfied if you always compare yourself to others. I've been there before. There's always going to be someone better than you. If you want to make lucrative money then go into careers or specialties that are lucrative. Simple as that. You can't have it both ways were you want to be recognized as being a true humanitarian when your inner most desire in the end is money.

[Rayven]

if one seeks money and status, better go into investment banking, money management or law.......and a pleasing personality without substance can often get you far, e.g., in the marekting end of money management, you don't manage money, just people by bringing in and retaining clients, investment banking requires good communication skills that can allow you to be forgiven for some lack of substance..and I know one incompetent lawyer who was very lieable and blamed all his losses on the Court as he fought and lost useless cases for which his clients paid without objection........in medicine, we need to be competent as patients lives are at stake

Investment banking is much muchhhh more than just good presentation and communication skills. Many work more hours than doctors, live under immense stress, and clearly have a much higher chance of becoming unemployed than doctors do like AdamP was saying. There's a book I remember reading, I think it was called "Monkey Business". I suggest you check it out.

 

Depending on your specialty/case, lawyers clearly deal with lives just like doctors. Even in places where capital punishment isn't used, spending 40 years in prison is more or less a lifetime. I wish you wouldn't shortchange other professions so quickly.

[future_doc]

I criticized future_doc because she clearly states she wasn't considering family medicine because of the money but also because she felt bad for patients because of assembly-lined health care. But then as soon as desiguy8179 said they were grossing $300,000/year as a family practitioner suddenly she was interested in family meds again. If you want to say that you're going into medicine for financial reasons then I don't have a problem with that. It's only when you try to pretend that you're so righteous and compassionate by touting that you put your patients first when really you hold your pay check at a much higher priority that I find rather sickening. Future_doc was saying somewhere that her idea of "giving back to society" was to be able to afford to pay for her kids to go to private school...

 

Gee... won't someone help me give back to society by paying for me to go to Harvard?

 

I do think most people that pursue specialties, especially ROAD, do do it for the financial reasons and for the hours. Of course I do believe some people are genuinely interested in dealing with say acne for the rest of their career but for the most part I think money is the key motivating factor.

 

Going into med for the money is plain stupid - there are more lucrative areas of endeavour if money is the goal. Assembly line FM does not interest me in the slightest, but if I am able to accomplish more and at a financially satsifactorily level to myself, of course I will reconsider. You have fallen off the rails if you believe I said that paying back to society means sending my kids to private school. I said I will send my kids to private school and I will do humanitarian work as part of my professional life. Both are separate matters. Both, btw, require cashflow from my profession to allow me to accomplish these goals. I have every expectation that I will accomplish my goals. Ther is no inconssistency of putting patients first and having a good income. It is called honesty. If you find these thoughts sickening, then perhasps you need to see a good doctor, who has experienced putting patients first asnd a good income. To each their own, I encourage you to go for your worthy goals whatever they may be, and I will go for mine. Absolutely, I shall make a postive contribution to society, to my patients, to the greater world, to my future family and I shall enjoy life, while also attempting to improve it for others. I sleep well at night, I am on track, successful in all my endeavours, academically, competitively in other areas and I enjoy my patient contact which is a positive experience for patients and myself. I see no reason why I should change my approach, atittude, goals, ambitions and desire to be the best doctor I can be in whatever area of medicine I shall eventually choose. Lifeis not asbout being recognized by others, it is about doing good within your capacities while creating a life for yourself and family -and having no regrets looking back. PEACE to you and all.

[future_doc]

Investment banking is much muchhhh more than just good presentation and communication skills. Many work more hours than doctors, live under immense stress, and clearly have a much higher chance of becoming unemployed than doctors do like AdamP was saying. There's a book I remember reading, I think it was called "Monkey Business". I suggest you check it out.

 

Depending on your specialty/case, lawyers clearly deal with lives just like doctors. Even in places where capital punishment isn't used, spending 40 years in prison is more or less a lifetime. I wish you wouldn't shortchange other professions so quickly.

 

 

Check it out you say. I have a highly successful friend in investment banking, with no training in investment banking, who survived the wrenching Sept 208 et al - and is thriving, all b/c of excellent communication skills! Far more successful than the technically qualified with the MBAs who don't communicate as well. Lawyers deal with money, occasionallyin personal matters someone gets hurt. Law is a game that has one rule "WIN" - the law and/or facts are props that are sometimes ignored, the best lawyer always wins. Ten years in prision I would consider a lifetime. Most lawyers rarely do anything of social benefit, it is all about money changing hands in the end...while they create enoromous fees for excessive and unnecessary work. Shortchange other professions? They are lucky to be called professions. Investment bankers have been the latest round of societies robbers who, for the most part, get away with it. Competent doctors do no harm, improve the lives of others and are desrving of remuneration on a level that esteems their value to society. Airline pilots yes, but doctors, no?

[future_doc]

Gee... won't someone help me give back to society by paying for me to go to Harvard?

 

Excuse me, I shall and gladly so give my future children the best education available at 100% my expense, whether that means Harvard, McGill or wherever. I wouldn't have it any other way. I do not want to tske, I shall give and pay my way, as shall we all. I shall contibute to society only. If you think this is sickening too, please see the same doctor referred to in a previous post.

[Rayven]

Going into med for the money is plain stupid - there are more lucrative areas of endeavour if money is the goal.

Really? Because doctors seem to be in the top 5-10% of earners in this country. And like AdamP said, medicine is probably the most secure job out there.

 

Assembly line FM does not interest me in the slightest, but if I am able to accomplish more and at a financially satsifactorily level to myself, of course I will reconsider.

All desiguy8719 said was that he was grossing $300k a year and you said you were suddenly interested again. >_>

 

You have fallen off the rails if you believe I said that paying back to society means sending my kids to private school. I said I will send my kids to private school and I will do humanitarian work as part of my professional life. Both are separate matters. Both, btw, require cashflow from my profession to allow me to accomplish these goals. I have every expectation that I will accomplish my goals. Ther is no inconssistency of putting patients first and having a good income. It is called honesty.

What's dishonest is that you go around touting your priority to put patients first but from what I hear from you it's money, money, money before patients. But hey, maybe that's just my opinion. Others are free to go back and read your posts.

 

If you find these thoughts sickening, then perhasps you need to see a good doctor, who has experienced putting patients first asnd a good income. To each their own, I encourage you to go for your worthy goals whatever they may be, and I will go for mine. Absolutely, I shall make a postive contribution to society, to my patients, to the greater world, to my future family and I shall enjoy life, while also attempting to improve it for others. I sleep well at night, I am on track, successful in all my endeavours, academically, competitively in other areas and I enjoy my patient contact which is a positive experience for patients and myself. I see no reason why I should change my approach, atittude, goals, ambitions and desire to be the best doctor I can be in whatever area of medicine I shall eventually choose. Lifeis not asbout being recognized by others, it is about doing good within your capacities while creating a life for yourself and family -and having no regrets looking back. PEACE to you and all.

You say all these wonderful things (one of which is as grand enough to affect not just your patients but the "greater world") but in the end you've already said you want money for private schools for your kids because that's what they deserve. Why them and not other kids? I don't know. You want your cottage, you want your big house and cars in the driveway, you want to be able to take off a month or more off work to do whatever it is that you consider humanitarian work which apparently can't be done here as a doctor. You want, want, want... money. I'd be fine if you'd just say that but you really seem to want to hide your desire.. no, rather.. what you feel is your entitlement to be rich behind some humanitarian face.

 

And apparently you're successful in everything you do including academically and you're competitive in everything else. Heck, you even let us know you sleep well at night! Geez, I think you really should just appeal to skip the whole med school interview process.

[Rayven]

Check it out you say. I have a highly successful friend in investment banking, with no training in investment banking, who survived the wrenching Sept 208 et al - and is thriving, all b/c of excellent communication skills! Far more successful than the technically qualified with the MBAs who don't communicate as well.

And of course there's no way I could ever verify any of this. But in any case, if we're going to play the "i have a friend" game then I too know someone in investment banking. He's actually the younger brother of my girl friend and he recently had to quit his job even with all the job perks (company paid for credit cards, free limo escorts, vip tickets to baseball and basketball games, etc) because it was too stressful. He had to work 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day preparing presentations and watching the market. There's a reason why certain jobs get paid what they're paid. If it was all up to communication skills then Mr. Shamwow and Billy Mayes would've quit the infomercial scene and gone into making $500,000+ a year.

 

Lawyers deal with money, occasionallyin personal matters someone gets hurt. Law is a game that has one rule "WIN" - the law and/or facts are props that are sometimes ignored, the best lawyer always wins. Ten years in prision I would consider a lifetime. Most lawyers rarely do anything of social benefit, it is all about money changing hands in the end...while they create enoromous fees for excessive and unnecessary work. Shortchange other professions? They are lucky to be called professions. Investment bankers have been the latest round of societies robbers who, for the most part, get away with it. Competent doctors do no harm, improve the lives of others and are desrving of remuneration on a level that esteems their value to society. Airline pilots yes, but doctors, no?

Lawyers don't just deal with money. There are different kinds of lawyers just like there are different kinds of doctors. Not all doctors perform heart surgery.

 

Lawyers rarely do anything of social benefit? Wow. Just wow.

 

Just because lawyers get paid for their services does not mean it's not of social benefit. Hell, you're the one here crying that you'd never consider family meds because you wouldn't have enough money to pay for your kids to go into private school and afford all the nice things in life.

[Rayven]

Excuse me, I shall and gladly so give my future children the best education available at 100% my expense, whether that means Harvard, McGill or wherever. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Judging by the other threads, "your" expense seems to be at the expense of other patients paying you more for your services...

 

I do not want to tske, I shall give and pay my way, as shall we all. I shall contibute to society only. If you think this is sickening too, please see the same doctor referred to in a previous post.

What doctor was that again? Doctor I-Don't-Understand-What-Priorities-Are? =)

 

Yes, clearly I said contributing to society was sickening. Cleeeeearly.

 

By the way, just how do plan on contributing to society only? You do realize that choosing a career that pays $300,000+ a year so that you can afford all these nice things like private school for your kids really don't count towards contributing to society only, right?

[future_doc]

Really? Because doctors seem to be in the top 5-10% of earners in this country. And like AdamP said, medicine is probably the most secure job out there.

 

Medicine is secure. It is not the money that attracts me to med. Other fields would give me more if I was in it for the money.

 

 

All desiguy8719 said was that he was grossing $300k a year and you said you were suddenly interested again. >_>

 

Absolutely. If I can be professionally fulfilled and earnenough I would seriously consider FM as a career path. This is real life and I am at a stage and will be for years of exploring options until I findmy niche. This is a normal, reasonable, sane and prudent part of the process. Perhaps for me, not for you, whatever.

 

 

What's dishonest is that you go around touting your priority to put patients first but from what I hear from you it's money, money, money before patients. But hey, maybe that's just my opinion. Others are free to go back and read your posts.

 

I am 'touting' nothing except in your imagination. Earning power is one of the serious and important considerations in choosing area of practice. To believe otherwise is to believe in the toothfairy. When I was much younger, I did believein the toothfairy, not today.

 

 

You say all these wonderful things (one of which is as grand enough to affect not just your patients but the "greater world") but in the end you've already said you want money for private schools for your kids because that's what they deserve. Why them and not other kids? I don't know. You want your cottage, you want your big house and cars in the driveway, you want to be able to take off a month or more off work to do whatever it is that you consider humanitarian work which apparently can't be done here as a doctor. You want, want, want... money. I'd be fine if you'd just say that but you really seem to want to hide your desire.. no, rather.. what you feel is your entitlement to be rich behind some humanitarian face.

 

I shall not pay for the education of other kids other than thru Canadian Harambee Education Society http://www.canadianharambee.ca a marvelous organization that pays for the education of girls in Africa, uplifting them and preparing them for a future. Believe me, I am aware better than you are of my obligations as a citizen of the world to help those less fortunate than us. And although I have little, I am able to make the occasional loanthru http://www.kiva.org to help with micro-loans to uplift others by allowing them to uplift themselves. With respect, how dare you to tell me how to spend my future money with the implication tha if I am not generous e nough for your purposes I am a scoundrel and a scrooge. Canada has gvien me a life that I otherwise could not even know was possible and most assuredly, I shall send my children to what I consider to be the best education - at my sole expense - as a priority - and I shall also educate other children abroad, I have already looked into it in detaila nd k now of what I am talking, do you? A dream is useless and meaningless w/o a plan and method of implementation. For sure, I am not accoungtab le to you, but I am accountable to myself.

 

And apparently you're successful in everything you do including academically and you're competitive in everything else. Heck, you even let us know you sleep well at night! Geez, I think you really should just appeal to skip the whole med school interview process.

 

Rayven, sarcasim does not become you, you are so far above this that I forgive you. What is the opurpose of mocking me, does it make you feel good? I thougt wwe were having a good faith discussion as we often do, am I wrong? I work hard and was not always so successful, for years I was the ugly duckling figuratively speaking and it took focus, persperation, practice and many failures to achieve the level I have attained. My successes are anything but accidental, and if not for my successes I would not now have a reaosnable shot at med school. Is that really so bad? I am just your average run of the mill applicant, intelligent, very good grades, excellent ECs, volunteering, came from behind as result of lots of hard work for years, and if you insist in micking me and making fun, shame on you, not on me. What's with you, chill. Its really not nice and this is not you.

[future_doc]

Lawyers don't just deal with money. There are different kinds of lawyers just like there are different kinds of doctors. Not all doctors perform heart surgery.

 

Lawyers rarely do anything of social benefit? Wow. Just wow.

 

Truth:p , it all comes down to money in 95% of the cases, unless it is an issue of life, liberty or proinciple.

 

Signing off. You are a newbie here, go, enjoy and argue, I got better things to do.

[Rayven]

Medicine is secure. It is not the money that attracts me to med. Other fields would give me more if I was in it for the money.

Other fields like what? And it really does seem like it's the money that attracts you. I don't think it's news to you that family meds is sorely lacking physicians but you said you wouldn't consider it because of what? Money.

 

Absolutely. If I can be professionally fulfilled and earnenough I would seriously consider FM as a career path. This is real life and I am at a stage and will be for years of exploring options until I findmy niche. This is a normal, reasonable, sane and prudent part of the process. Perhaps for me, not for you, whatever.

Professionally fulfilled? lol?? I repeat... ALL that desiguy had changed was the monetary value attached to family meds and you suddenly had your change of heart.

 

I am 'touting' nothing except in your imagination. Earning power is one of the serious and important considerations in choosing area of practice. To believe otherwise is to believe in the toothfairy. When I was much younger, I did believein the toothfairy, not today.

Others are free to read your past posts and from that draw their own conclusions.

 

I shall not pay for the education of other kids other than thru Canadian Harambee Education Society http://www.canadianharambee.ca a marvelous organization that pays for the education of girls in Africa, uplifting them and preparing them for a future. Believe me, I am aware better than you are of my obligations as a citizen of the world to help those less fortunate than us.

You make the bold claim that you're more aware than me of our obligations as human beings based on what grounds? How naive. So you can list off a NPO. I'll counter and say Oprah Winfrey's Angel Network, The Oprah Winfrey Foundation, and the Oprah Winfrey Leadership Academy in South Africa which is just a splendid charity organization that provides absolutely marvellllous education and training for the young women of South Africa which will surely bring upon a brighter near future.

 

And although I have little, I am able to make the occasional loanthru http://www.kiva.org to help with micro-loans to uplift others by allowing them to uplift themselves.

Super. I sponsor two kids through World Vision. Okay, no I don't. But I was going to.. until I realized I'm poor. But what's your point? I don't get why you bother listing this. Are you trying to compare e-humanitarian-penises with me?

 

Btw, I don't really care much about the kiva concept. For those that don't know, basically you loan Kiva your money.. lets say $20.. they then take this $20 and give it to a "Field Partner" which then lends it a poor 'entrepreneur' (ie a fishmonger, goat herder, etc) in South Africa. The entrepreneur then takes this loan to help build up their business and then they repay it back to their Field Partner who repays it back to Kiva who repays you back your original loan. What I don't like about the Kiva concept is that the Field Partners take your money and MAKE money off of it through charging interest to the borrowers (the South Africans). It reminds me a lot of the ValuVillage concept were you basically give them your used clothes (usually thinking it goes towards a good cause) and they just resell it and make profit.

 

With respect, how dare you to tell me how to spend my future money with the implication tha if I am not generous e nough for your purposes I am a scoundrel and a scrooge. Canada has gvien me a life that I otherwise could not even know was possible and most assuredly, I shall send my children to what I consider to be the best education - at my sole expense - as a priority - and I shall also educate other children abroad, I have already looked into it in detaila nd k now of what I am talking, do you? A dream is useless and meaningless w/o a plan and method of implementation. For sure, I am not accoungtab le to you, but I am accountable to myself.

I'm not telling you how to spend your money. I'm merely just listing off the reasons you gave everyone on the boards for why you wanted money, money, money. You can want as much money as you want but I just wish you'd be honest and admit that instead of hiding it behind some humanitarian face. You've said you wanted money for all the nice things in life (private school, big house, cars, cottages, the works basically) but in an attempt to play the humanitarian you keep adding in and putting more emphasis that the reason you want more money is so that you can afford to take a month or whatever off to play the humanitarian. Which apparently to you right now means educating children. Which.. in my opinion.. would be a waste since hypothetically you're a doctor.

 

Rayven, sarcasim does not become you, you are so far above this that I forgive you. What is the opurpose of mocking me, does it make you feel good? I thougt wwe were having a good faith discussion as we often do, am I wrong? I work hard and was not always so successful, for years I was the ugly duckling figuratively speaking and it took focus, persperation, practice and many failures to achieve the level I have attained. My successes are anything but accidental, and if not for my successes I would not now have a reaosnable shot at med school. Is that really so bad? I am just your average run of the mill applicant, intelligent, very good grades, excellent ECs, volunteering, came from behind as result of lots of hard work for years, and if you insist in micking me and making fun, shame on you, not on me. What's with you, chill. Its really not nice and this is not you.

I'm not mocking you. You said it yourself. Read.

 

"I sleep well at night, I am on track, successful in all my endeavours, academically, competitively in other areas"

 

To say that you're successful in all of your endeavors is to say that you're successful at everything you do. Again.. another bold statement.

[Rayven]

Truth:p , it all comes down to money in 95% of the cases, unless it is an issue of life, liberty or proinciple.

And 95% of plastic surgery cases are for money. What's your point?

 

I'm sorry that you think so lowly of lawyers.

 

Signing off. You are a newbie here, go, enjoy and argue, I got better things to do.

Really? A newbie? Is that really all you got?

 

If number of posts really are a determinant of anything... anything positive... then give me a month to catch up with your quintuple posting. I just find it funny that in the same sentence you contradict yourself. You got better things to do but clearly not before since you have 1,500 posts or so more than me which is also the reason you want to use to ignore properly responding to arguments. lol

[a41]

You guys are both idiots for ****ting up this thread.

[Jochi1543]

You guys are both idiots for ****ting up this thread.

 

Epic. 10char

[AdamP]

lol i've been skipping over your arguments for a while now.

[Cnussey]

You guys are both idiots for ****ting up this thread.

 

Snort. Lol.

[Cnussey]

Relative poverty? What BS. I didn't go to a private school, never had a cottage, and winter vacations meant driving to Ottawa for Christmas. And I come from a physician family. By any relative measure, all full-time physicians are in the top 1% of income earners in Canada.

 

Yeah. I come from a couple of fishermen...y'all don't know poverty.

[Rayven]

lol.. you guys are right. In hindsight I don't know why I bothered replying. One of my flaws.

 

Anyways, one of my parents are unemployed and the other is earning about $12/hour.. so beat that. =_=

[NWOsw]

I think that many people go into medicine to help people and some others go into medicine for the money. But the reality is that many people go into medicine for the combination of the two. At risk of causing a stir: I actually think that all Dr's should probably be fully salaried in wage and increases dependant upon performance and outcome measures.

[Cnussey]

I think that many people go into medicine to help people and some others go into medicine for the money. But the reality is that many people go into medicine for the combination of the two. At risk of causing a stir: I actually think that all Dr's should probably be fully salaried in wage and increases dependant upon performance and outcome measures.

 

Performance and outcome measures? Guess oncologists won't get paid.

[Jochi1543]

Performance and outcome measures? Guess oncologists won't get paid.

 

Exactly my thought. Moreover, this could stall medical progress - many won't risk performing an experimental procedure or giving an experimental drug if that could lead to a salary cut if the measure doesn't work out.

[Cnussey]

Exactly my thought. Moreover, this could stall medical progress - many won't risk performing an experimental procedure or giving an experimental drug if that could lead to a salary cut if the measure doesn't work out.

 

Yeah, I think we should just suck it up.

[a41]

I think that many people go into medicine to help people and some others go into medicine for the money. But the reality is that many people go into medicine for the combination of the two. At risk of causing a stir: I actually think that all Dr's should probably be fully salaried in wage and increases dependant upon performance and outcome measures.

 

Many HMOs operate this way. However, the problem with this is that some Dr.'s patient populations are predisposed to adverse outcomes. This also encourages patient dumping which doesn't help anyone.

 

We've actually had a couple of lectures on different payment models - as there is a broad spectrum of them in the united states. It's very interesting but they all have their own problems.

[Rayven]

I think that many people go into medicine to help people and some others go into medicine for the money. But the reality is that many people go into medicine for the combination of the two. At risk of causing a stir: I actually think that all Dr's should probably be fully salaried in wage and increases dependant upon performance and outcome measures.

Don't forget about the people that go into medicine because the social status and respect... and sex.

 

To be honest, I believe most people go into medicine because of the money, job security, and the status. Of course, being able to help people is nice too. But then again, there are an infinite other ways you could help people.. just that you probably won't get paid nearly as much.

[Cnussey]

Don't forget about the people that go into medicine because the social status and respect... and sex.

 

To be honest, I believe most people go into medicine because of the money, job security, and the status. Of course, being able to help people is nice too. But then again, there are an infinite other ways you could help people.. just that you probably won't get paid nearly as much.

 

Yeah, that's it...I'm gonna tell the adcom that I'm going in for the hot sex.