Salary in Family medicine

[rmorelan]

and so we can seriously make 200 g in FM (I thought it was more like 130)? That's good money... esp. for a two year residency.

 

I hate the money debate as it tends to cause things threads to go off the rails - but I should point out that in Ontario at least their is recent push to give a lot more to family docs (according to the family docs that are now teaching me at Western). Bonuses for getting everyone to take a flu shot, bonus for diabetes tracking, bonuses coming out of the wood work for family docs. Maybe some of that preventative medicine stuff is beginning to filter up the food chain

 

Hope so!

[moo]

I am a Community Medicine resident and also worked as a family doc for a year and still moonlight about 30 hours a week.

 

I can tell you that how much you make as a family doc really depends on how hard you are willing to work. I worked 6 days a week, hospital call, nursing homes, home calls and I billed about 350k my first year of practice. After expenses it turns out to be about 270k before taxes. But I worked way harder than most of my colleagues, who probably bill on average about 250k a year and about 180k after expenses but before taxes (4-5 days a week, no call, no hospital).

 

One of the things people don't realize as students and residents is that you are a private practitioner when you're a family doc. Why is that important? Because you don't get any benefits whatsoever. So forget dental coverage, optometry coverage, physio, drug coverage, etc. If you're young, that's fine but as you age, you'll want that dental, physio, and drug coverage. Also, you have to save for your retirement--there is no such thing as a pension. And don't forget, if you take vacation, you don't get paid. These are all reasons why I went back to do Community Medicine. I will be a salaried physician, only making about 180k-220k BUT the difference is I'll get tons of benefits, a pension, and 6-8 weeks of PAID vacation (I do not need 8 weeks of vacation a year--I can easily still work as afamily doc on my "vacation"), To make my 270k a year, I had to work six days a week, took barely 3 weeks of vacation, and did onerus hospital call. I can always still moonlight a bit as a family doc to supplement my base salary as a CM specialist but life is A LOT better.

 

But of course, life is not just about money. You'll make a decent amount as a family doc. Certainly even if you work 1-2 days a week at a walk-in you'll make more than most people.

[physiology]

"I'll get tons of benefits, a pension, and 6-8 weeks of PAID vacation"

 

Excellent point Moo. I don't think people realize these aspects when they go into private practice.

 

I was quite surprised when I discovered that clinical faculty at UBC do not get benefits either (other than a parking pass and they now get paid for teaching medical students and residents)

 

If you were to get all those benefits, which employer would provide that? (Vancouver Coastal?)

[da_birdie]

I wonder if being on a salary with benefits and pension will still allow you to incorporate and enjoy the same tax savings compared to a private practitioner..

Would be interesting to find out.

 

One of my GP colleagues has some benefit/pension plan from working part-time at a student health clinic in one of the universities. He was grandfather'd in however, as newer associates in these student health clinics no longer get pensions.

 

One advantage being a private practitioner is complete control over your schedule. Also there is no headache about hospital politics / endless meetings, etc.

 

It would be nice to have some sort of government medical/dental plan coverage for private practitioners though...

[physiology]

I agree.

 

To be a salaried physician with benefits, you have to work for a crown corporation. For instance, your workers compensation board or the coastal heatlh authority in a managerial position (ie. epidemiologist, health medical officer). I wonder if the Deans of medical schools (dean of student affairs, research, etc) get benefits and are treated like tenured faculty?

[moo]

You can buy plans from your provincial medical associations (like a private dental/medical plan, life insurance, disability insurance etc.). Things like pensions don't exist for the physician in private practice, unless you don't do FFS and work for WCB or government in some other capacity (like as a Medical Officer of Health).

 

If you are associated with a medical school, i.e., full time faculty in the Dept of Family Practice and get a salary, you get a pension and full benefits. However, if you are just a clinical faculty, you only get honorary benefits like use of the library, etc.

 

For me, my goal is to do CV or cancer epi and that means I'll likely either be affiliated with a major university or a provincial cancer agency (or both), both of which offer good benefits. I can also supplement my income with doing the occasional family practice walk in shifts or even continue doing part-time family practice (like I do now). It all depends on how hard you wanna work.

[physiology]

Yes, once you incorporate, I believe your medical expenses can be claimed.

 

In fact, I've heard ridiculous things from my financial advisor like a surgeon buying a Mercedes-Benz with ergonomic seats (for his "back pain") and having that covered.

 

Anyway, who knows. When they want to sell you stocks or mutual funds, they'll say anything.

[Methodnike]

Yes, once you incorporate, I believe your medical expenses can be claimed.

 

In fact, I've heard ridiculous things from my financial advisor like a surgeon buying a Mercedes-Benz with ergonomic seats (for his "back pain") and having that covered.

 

Anyway, who knows. When they want to sell you stocks or mutual funds, they'll say anything.

I know you can get incorporated in Quebec, so do you know in you can in other provinces?

[medpanicked-alwys inpanic]

im so tired of people who say that it's ok if we'd have to live on 50K, just because the average person has less.

if i wanted to be an average person, i would not have gone into medschool.

the average person does not have 15 years of university education, and did not have to make all the sacrifices, nor to go through the hellish slavery of clerkship. if after all this, i have to be content with having an average lifestyle, none of this was worth it.

stuff your "but we're helping people" you know where. no one is gonna help ME pay off my loan.

[future_doc]

I know you can get incorporated in Quebec, so do you know in you can in other provinces?

 

Physician professional corporations exist in Ontario.

[Guest success100]

im so tired of people who say that it's ok if we'd have to live on 50K, just because the average person has less.

if i wanted to be an average person, i would not have gone into medschool.

the average person does not have 15 years of university education, and did not have to make all the sacrifices, nor to go through the hellish slavery of clerkship. if after all this, i have to be content with having an average lifestyle, none of this was worth it.

stuff your "but we're helping people" you know where. no one is gonna help ME pay off my loan.

 

Take someone who teaches at university,who REALLY went into 15-16 years of studies to get his Ph.D. and doesn't even get 80k.

I wonder how the "I studied 15 years" excuse hold to justify the pay of an

M.D.

 

Seriously,medical school is for passion,if you're after money,go do an M.B.A...you'll start with 170k/year straight out.

But i still agree that the medical jobs shouldn't be "underpaid" like a McDonalds job...but it shouldn't be the MAIN reason to get in.

It's easy to make money,medical school is just NOT the right place for it...

[Jochi1543]

Take someone who teaches at university,who REALLY went into 15-16 years of studies to get his Ph.D. and doesn't even get 80k.

I wonder how the "I studied 15 years" excuse hold to justify the pay of an

M.D.

 

To be fair, master's and PhD students get a stipend that can sometimes equal a full-time salary for some people. Some people I know have lived quite comfortably throughout their master's or PhD education without ever needing loans. Med students might get a bursary or an award here or there, but not everyone gets them and they almost never cover the cost of tuition, let alone living expenses.

[Blake]

if you're after money,go do an M.B.A...you'll start with 170k/year straight out.

Hmm, no! This has got to be one of the greatest myths premeds tell other premeds to decrease competition. Not sure that old trick still works, guys. The vast majority of MBAs aren't making MD salaries. Seriously, there aren't many jobs out there that will guarantee you 200-600k, dependent mostly on academic prowess. Good grades/evaluations alone won't take you that far in other fields, really.

 

Anyway, this thread is pretty funny. Future_doc got absolutely destroyed, but that was understandable with such comments. I've got nothing to add to the discussion, just enjoying a few laughs post-ICU call. I'll admit some days I wish I was in family medicine so I'd be done already and drive a nicer car (BMW M3, baby!), but that's about it. All doctors make decent money, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Besides, someone will always be richer than you, so unless you win the lottery, you'll be pretty unhappy if that's the way you approach life.

 

And yes, a M3 is totally achievable. Hmm, E92 M3 *drools*

[future_doc]

moo has shared his kowledge and insights as a family practitioner that are most enlightening.

(See current thread entitled 'family doctors pay')

[moo]

Hmm, no! This has got to be one of the greatest myths premeds tell other premeds to decrease competition. Not sure that old trick still works, guys. The vast majority of MBAs aren't making MD salaries. Seriously, there aren't many jobs out there that will guarantee you 200-600k, dependent mostly on academic prowess. Good grades/evaluations alone won't take you that far in other fields, really.

 

Anyway, this thread is pretty funny. Future_doc got absolutely destroyed, but that was understandable with such comments. I've got nothing to add to the discussion, just enjoying a few laughs post-ICU call. I'll admit some days I wish I was in family medicine so I'd be done already and drive a nicer car (BMW M3, baby!), but that's about it. All doctors make decent money, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Besides, someone will always be richer than you, so unless you win the lottery, you'll be pretty unhappy if that's the way you approach life.

 

And yes, a M3 is totally achievable. Hmm, E92 M3 *drools*

 

I'd rather get an M6. I have a 335i now... fun car to drive. However, I still bus/skytrain to work/residency now that we have the Canada Line in Vancouver. I only drive it on the weekend for fun. Being stuck in a BMW in rush hour in Vancouver is not fun.

[infomeddude]

I'd rather get an M6. I have a 335i now... fun car to drive. However, I still bus/skytrain to work/residency now that we have the Canada Line in Vancouver. I only drive it on the weekend for fun. Being stuck in a BMW in rush hour in Vancouver is not fun.

 

It is always nice to see students who have finished their long years of medical training fnially getting rewarded for all their hard work.

[Blake]

I'd rather get an M6. I have a 335i now... fun car to drive. However, I still bus/skytrain to work/residency now that we have the Canada Line in Vancouver. I only drive it on the weekend for fun. Being stuck in a BMW in rush hour in Vancouver is not fun.

I was this close to getting a 335i this summer, but I decided to wait a bit more. Tried the new S4? Test-drove it and still in awe.

[Blake]

I'm gonna keep driving my used Corolla until it falls apart.

 

Until I have $1Mil in the bank, I'm not getting fancy with my depreciating assets.

Saving for that cottage in spain?

[rmorelan]

I'm gonna keep driving my used Corolla until it falls apart.

 

Until I have $1Mil in the bank, I'm not getting fancy with my depreciating assets.

 

hehehe doctors seem to come in two camps - the super nice car or the I am driving this until it literally falls apart and I can't duck tape it together again group. Both groups earn the same amount of money

 

I probably will be in the latter category but I guess you never know!

[rmorelan]

I'm in the first group. I'd rather be early 30s and drive a bmw or a benz as opposed to being the guy with the white hair, gut and driving the koenigsigg.

 

Frankly I would have no idea what to do with either type of car That being said, I think I would find it annoying to own a car that can travel 6 times the legal speed limit and yet not be able to actually go anywhere near that fast.

[Jochi1543]

I don't really know what I'd do with $150K/year take-home once all the student loans were paid off, unless I had half a dozen children I was raising on my own or something of that kind. There's only so much crap you can buy before it begins to suffocate you; and for vacations and the like, you are going to be limited in time because of work. I guess I'd just donate a lot to charity and contribute to some scholarships and bursaries and stuff.

[rmorelan]

I don't really know what I'd do with $150K/year take-home once all the student loans were paid off, unless I had half a dozen children I was raising on my own or something of that kind. There's only so much crap you can buy before it begins to suffocate you; and for vacations and the like, you are going to be limited in time because of work. I guess I'd just donate a lot to charity and contribute to some scholarships and bursaries and stuff.

 

I can relate to that - I didn't know what to do with my salary before medicine, I have no idea what I will do with it. Probably do something boring like save

 

I will take nice vacations though, some place tropical

[rmorelan]

They earn the same amount, but the ones who save have far more liquid assets later on, thanks to your little friend compound interest.

 

Granted, docs in the first category can look all posh with their Benzes early on. However, it'll look like nothing next to my Koenigsigg (which any physician who saves well and invests wisely should be able to afford within 20 years of practice)

 

Am I right in that a Koenigsigg costs over 3 million US?

 

Must be some fancy car

[Guest success100]

Hmm, no! This has got to be one of the greatest myths premeds tell other premeds to decrease competition. Not sure that old trick still works, guys. The vast majority of MBAs aren't making MD salaries. Seriously, there aren't many jobs out there that will guarantee you 200-600k, dependent mostly on academic prowess. Good grades/evaluations alone won't take you that far in other fields, really.

 

Anyway, this thread is pretty funny. Future_doc got absolutely destroyed, but that was understandable with such comments. I've got nothing to add to the discussion, just enjoying a few laughs post-ICU call. I'll admit some days I wish I was in family medicine so I'd be done already and drive a nicer car (BMW M3, baby!), but that's about it. All doctors make decent money, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Besides, someone will always be richer than you, so unless you win the lottery, you'll be pretty unhappy if that's the way you approach life.

 

And yes, a M3 is totally achievable. Hmm, E92 M3 *drools*

 

Well,blake,i was not trying to decrease competition or anything,most people here think that way...what ever.

I was just trying to say that if money is your ONLY goal,then trust me,med is not for you.

An MBA is a master degree,and the salary really depends on your specialty,just like MDs..lol

A 5-8 years experienced banker with an MBA can get a minimum of 250k/year in Canada.I agree that MDs get more money straight out,but seriously,since most of them work overtime and can't live decent relationships (especially specialists.),if that person has no passion on what he's doing,he'll be drinking jack's whiskey and valium,falling into depression,and end up blowing their brain's out.

So yeah,if profit and prestige is your only aim on a such stressful and demanding job,i don't see the point of doing it,when you can study on another thing,eventually get more money after a bit of time and don't have to worry on crazy schedules.

It was just an opinion,nothing to offence anyone.

[Jochi1543]

Well,blake,i was not trying to decrease competition or anything,most people here think that way...what ever.

I was just trying to say that if money is your ONLY goal,then trust me,med is not for you.

An MBA is a master degree,and the salary really depends on your specialty,just like MDs..lol

A 5-8 years experienced banker with an MBA can get a minimum of 250k/year in Canada.I agree that MDs get more money straight out,but seriously,since most of them work overtime and can't live decent relationships (especially specialists.),if that person has no passion on what he's doing,he'll be drinking jack's whiskey and valium,falling into depression,and end up blowing their brain's out.

So yeah,if profit and prestige is your only aim on a such stressful and demanding job,i don't see the point of doing it,when you can study on another thing,eventually get more money after a bit of time and don't have to worry on crazy schedules.

It was just an opinion,nothing to offence anyone.

 

If you think these bankers making 250K are not working overtime, you are kidding yourself. Even once you've reached the level of seniority where you no longer need to work over 60 hrs a week on a regular basis, it's only after you went through work hours equal to that of a medical resident. It's not that uncommon for beginning investment banking analysts to work both weekend days or even sleep at the office.