Salary in Family medicine

[justletmein]

Bringing back a dead topic here, but I know a GP and pediatrician who make around 900k in BC. Outliers, yes. But it is still possible.

 

so you resurrected a 3-year old thread to mention anecdotal salaries of a couple of outliers?

Well done, sir.

[The Cat in the Hat]

Not anecdotal. But could you clarify why it is considered 'bad' to bring back old topics?

[BoyInTheBubble]

Well, are you going to show us a copy of their income statements or tax bills?

 

Because then it is anecdotal to the rest of us.

[The Cat in the Hat]

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/legislation/pdf/bluebook2013.pdf

 

Ctrl F: Bhurji -> makes 895k

 

Google: rate md -> search bhurji -> find out he is a pediatrician

[Arztin]

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/msp/legislation/pdf/bluebook2013.pdf

 

Ctrl F: Bhurji -> makes 895k

 

Google: rate md -> search bhurji -> find out he is a pediatrician

lol says so the guy who randomly asked for medical advice to medical students in Chat, and doesn't understand why it's innapropriate and annoying.

Already thinking about salaries though.

 

cute

[The Cat in the Hat]

I'm sorry, but yes I made a mistake I realize that now. But, what's wrong if I provided some salary numbers? I was interested what the docs here were making. Did I do something wrong?

[Arztin]

Look, every now and then, we have a high school guy like this one.

http://forums.premed101.com/index.php?/topic/38097-can-you-apply-for-md-at-harvard-after-mcgills-one-year-premed/page-3#entry403252

 

Talking about money at this point, saying how much the top MDs make etc... is definitely not a good idea. We have all been noob and had a worse sense of judgement. It's fine you're interested in medicine, but before writing stuff like this, just think a bit before, or you'll get thrashed by forum members. (e.g. oh look at this high schooler thinking about money)

 

ps those GPs prob work in remote areas, and the numbers are before overhead BTW

[The Cat in the Hat]

That guy seemed to be a troll. I'm not doing any trolling whatsoever.

 

High schoolers can't talk about money? Hah. I was just contributing to the thread. If people are going to bash me for talking about money, let them. They have a right to voice their opinions, and I have mine. Thank goodness we live in Canada.

 

And yes those numbers are before overhead and taxes. But no it's not rural area; more like suburban.

[BoyInTheBubble]

It's fine to talk about money. 

 

I think it's stupid that doctor's income is so taboo.  Prospective applicants should be able to find out what training entails (and the costs), what the odds are of getting a job (despite it being very hard to predict), and how much income. Going blindly into a 20k/yr med school is pretty silly.

 

I wouldn't make it your focus. There are much easier ways to make money and not do years of training. Lots of people do 4 yrs of undergrad, 4 of med school, and a 5year residency.  Some do masters or phd, or fellowships. You're looking at 11-15 years of training before independent practice.  That's a long time of not working. (Yes, all professional jobs have years of school. But medicine is probably the longest.)

 

Also, I would focus on the average or the median of incomes.  Sure, the odd pediatrician or GP will bill (not take home income) 900k. It's do able, but maybe they work too hard and have no life.  Maybe their patients find that they are rushed through? And maybe they are the best, patients love them and they make bank.

 

Odds are you won't, or you won't want to, etc. Despite those crazy outliers, pediatricians are actually on the lower end of average incomes (per specialty).

[booradley83]

For an 'average FM' doctor who sees 30 patients a day..........what is the take home?  All these outliers about billing 900k doesn't help the average student who is interested in FM.  What can a FM doctor expect realistically working a reasonable schedule 8 hour day; 5x a week; 48 weeks a year?

[rmorelan]

For an 'average FM' doctor who sees 30 patients a day..........what is the take home?  All these outliers about billing 900k doesn't help the average student who is interested in FM.  What can a FM doctor expect realistically working a reasonable schedule 8 hour day; 5x a week; 48 weeks a year?

 

average number of hours a family doctor works is about 15 hours more than 40 - just with all the other paperwork etc you cannot easily do during the day etc. Same with a lot of fields I guess - this isn't usually a 40 hour type field Probably a bit more than 30 patients too I guess, ha the work never ends

 

I still think it is in the ballpark of 200K - probably now less in Ontario of course and who knows in 5 months with the clawback but there you go.

[booradley83]

That's still a great take-home considering a short residency, 200k is plenty.  Can any attendings/FM residents chime in?  

[amichel]

That's still a great take-home considering a short residency, 200k is plenty.  Can any attendings/FM residents chime in?  

That's not take home. 

[makingfetchhappen]

average number of hours a family doctor works is about 15 hours more than 40 - just with all the other paperwork etc you cannot easily do during the day etc. Same with a lot of fields I guess - this isn't usually a 40 hour type field Probably a bit more than 30 patients too I guess, ha the work never ends

 

I still think it is in the ballpark of 200K - probably now less in Ontario of course and who knows in 5 months with the clawback but there you go.

This is all accurate from what I have read. Average hours is 55 per week. In personal experience, I see doctors (as in done training and all of that) taking 3 months to an entire year off at a time, and that is not normal. 

 

Family practice averages around $300K. But, that does not include overhead. You can work at a walk in and take home 70% of your fees to rent the space with patients always there. 

 

Ten years ago the average was $200K. That is a very different number to keep in mind.

 

But, with the changes coming up in Ontario, I do not know the details. Right now they get about $30 per patient consult. 

[mononoke]

It also depends on the payment model the GP is working under, If they're getting a blended salary of capitation and FFS vs only FFS...

 

I'm not too sure how much overhead costs because it's dependent on how many secretaries you have, how high the rent is..etc but 30% is a good estimate.

 

Also some family docs  can make more if they have a derm focused practice for instance or doing +1 anesthesia...

 

Although I'm curious to know what clinic based specialties make compared to community hospital based (as these don't usually have overhead)...are they comparable or is going private practice still more profitable?

[LittleDaisy]

Community hospital based GPs make more than private clinic practice (heard from my FM preceptors).

But community hospital based GPs have less control over their schedules: in ward, emergency, on call, etc. When you have your own walk-in clinics, you could pretty much work from 8-5 and take vacations as you desire!

It also depends on the payment model the GP is working under, If they're getting a blended salary of capitation and FFS vs only FFS...

 

I'm not too sure how much overhead costs because it's dependent on how many secretaries you have, how high the rent is..etc but 30% is a good estimate.

 

Also some family docs  can make more if they have a derm focused practice for instance or doing +1 anesthesia...

 

Although I'm curious to know what clinic based specialties make compared to community hospital based (as these don't usually have overhead)...are they comparable or is going private practice still more profitable?

[booradley83]

What's the average clinic based income?  With a blend of traditional walk in FM and walk in clinic?

[hking03]

For an 'average FM' doctor who sees 30 patients a day..........what is the take home? All these outliers about billing 900k doesn't help the average student who is interested in FM. What can a FM doctor expect realistically working a reasonable schedule 8 hour day; 5x a week; 48 weeks a year?

It all depends on where you live, what you do and how many people you work with...

 

On average from the four or five offices I've been in the monthly overhead is about 5-6k per doctor.

 

So about 60k per year goes to your office.

Then you've got your insurance and all the other random junk to cover.

 

If you see 30 patients a day and the average fee per patient is 34 (can be more for older patients) you'd bill 1000.00 per day. Plus complex care fees, procedures etc.

 

So if you worked 184 days a year that's 184k. You'll see why I chose 184 in a minute.

 

Then, if you see patients in the hospital you get to bill a bonus for the first patient of the day and any extra patients that day. The average I think is like 60.00 per patient you see in the hospital.

 

You also get a bonus for being a part of a hospital call group so you get something like 8-9k per year for that.

 

If you do prenatals/antenatals and maternity at a relatively busy center and deliver on average two babies a week with one day of a call per week you can make around 170-200k just from that. And the key here is... Most of that is overhead free.

 

So, if you work 4 days of clinic, see patients at the hospital before clinic and do one day of maternity call you can easily make 350k. Oh and that's with 6 weeks vacation...

 

Less your overhead and you are looking at around 280-290k.

 

As for hours worked each week... Well, it's more than 40. You'd be closer to 55-60 hours of work. Family Doctors can make great money if they are a. Willing to work b. Willing to practice medicine beyond just clinic and c. Take time to develop a sound business model.

 

Oh and I should note that a couple of the docs I've worked with have done walk in clinics 2-4 hours a week and that time usually adds on another 1500-2k in billings each week... Granted, the medicine isn't too thrilling... It's easy to see 10 patients in an hour when it's rx refills, utis and colds.

[booradley83]

Is it true that doctors in Canada dont have call? Also, how much time is spent on paperwork/phone calls?  What is the average number of patients seen per day?  Is 200k income after overhead realistically achievable with just clinic work?  

[ploughboy]

Is it true that doctors in Canada dont have call? Also, how much time is spent on paperwork/phone calls?  What is the average number of patients seen per day?  Is 200k income after overhead realistically achievable with just clinic work?  

 

1) No.  Wherever did you get that idea?

 

2) Far too much, none of it remunerated.

 

3) Depends

 

4) Depends.

[booradley83]

If you have a clinic.........is call required?  Overnight call for patient emergencies?  Also, is it paid?

[mononoke]

I have never heard of a family physician who does call 

[rmorelan]

I have never heard of a family physician who does call 

 

if you are a part of a practise group then you can have call with respect to that group - the idea is there is always a family doctor you can reach in your network 24/7.

 

I mean it isn't the same as resident style overnight call 1:4 etc ha, but you do have some responsibilities in that respect.

[booradley83]

Insurance companies usually mandate that a family doc is available by telephone for emergencies 24/7 in the USA.  Is it like this in Canada?  If you have a clinic and you are a family doctor; are you supposed to be available for emergencies via telephone?  For either a group or a solo doc?

[hking03]

Insurance companies usually mandate that a family doc is available by telephone for emergencies 24/7 in the USA. Is it like this in Canada? If you have a clinic and you are a family doctor; are you supposed to be available for emergencies via telephone? For either a group or a solo doc?

I've seen a few different docs do a few different things...

 

If you are by yourself in solo practice you are technically the MRP. At 2am though you can't really see patient for chest pain in your clinic... It wouldn't be good medicine unless you have access to a lab and Imaging center. So they should go to the emergency and see an Emerg doc to be worked up.

 

If you are in a group practice the same still applies... You can't be expected to rule out a PE or MI or Dissection at 2 am without access to labs and imaging...

 

However, if you have hospital privileges and you are able to see patients in the Emerg then you could be called in to assess. Or, you could be the MRP while the patient is in the hospital so you order labs, work them up and get them out once the Emerg doc has seen them and said they need to be admitted.

 

Ultimately, the practices are slightly different in BC/Canada... In fact, most offices I've been in have a message that says if the office is closed go to the emergency.

 

Hopefully that makes sense.