Question about loans and financial aspect of dentistry in the US for a Canadian student

[ronzroyce97]

Hi I'm currently a 3rd year sciences student in Canada. My plan is to go into dentistry in Canada however the schools here are very competitive so I'm definitely going to be applying to a lot of USA schools as well. I've been looking at the fees for a lot of dental schools and I've seen ranges from $250k USD all the way up to $500-600k USD, for other Canadian students who have attended dental schools in the USA how difficult is it to get a loan? Can you even get a loan that's going to pay for $500k-600k USD? If not how did you fund your dental school fees? Thank you.

[la marzocco]

12 minutes ago, ronzroyce97 said:

Hi I'm currently a 3rd year sciences student in Canada. My plan is to go into dentistry in Canada however the schools here are very competitive so I'm definitely going to be applying to a lot of USA schools as well. I've been looking at the fees for a lot of dental schools and I've seen ranges from $250k USD all the way up to $500-600k USD, for other Canadian students who have attended dental schools in the USA how difficult is it to get a loan? Can you even get a loan that's going to pay for $500k-600k USD? If not how did you fund your dental school fees? Thank you.

The loan at a Canadian big bank (e.g., TD, CIBC) will normally be a max $275K CAD for all four years of dentistry school. Getting a loan for a professional program for the US is going to require a co-signer (such as your parents). This is unlike getting a loan for a Canadian school where they don't require a co-signer. 

The remaining funding gap is normally closed by parents re-mortgaging the home (i.e., unlocking the equity value of the home), but your parents would need to show a steady income for this to be allowed. Some provincial aid does provide some funding but no where near anything substantial. 

The steep international fees going to the US, coupled with the unfavourable foreign exchange rate, is definitely a big con for people heading down south. But some have argued that the significant outlay of costs is necessary for high returns down the road. A working dentist can easily recoup these costs in the medium-term. For me personally, I couldn't stomach the fees going down south, it was just too much for me to be comfortable with. I also didn't want my parents to have to re-mortgage the home and be my co-signer. I am not trying to be insensitive of others who have gone with this path, and I do recognize that for some going to the states is the only option. But it is definitely a burden on you and your family and merits thought before you dive in.

[ronzroyce97]

28 minutes ago, la marzocco said:

The loan at a Canadian big bank (e.g., TD, CIBC) will normally be a max $275K CAD for all four years of dentistry school. Getting a loan for a professional program for the US is going to require a co-signer (such as your parents). This is unlike getting a loan for a Canadian school where they don't require a co-signer. 

The remaining funding gap is normally closed by parents re-mortgaging the home (i.e., unlocking the equity value of the home), but your parents would need to show a steady income for this to be allowed. Some provincial aid does provide some funding but no where near anything substantial. 

The steep international fees going to the US, coupled with the unfavourable foreign exchange rate, is definitely a big con for people heading down south. But some have argued that the significant outlay of costs is necessary for high returns down the road. A working dentist can easily recoup these costs in the medium-term. For me personally, I couldn't stomach the fees going down south, it was just too much for me to be comfortable with. I also didn't want my parents to have to re-mortgage the home and be my co-signer. I am not trying to be insensitive of others who have gone with this path, and I do recognize that for some going to the states is the only option. But it is definitely a burden on you and your family and merits thought before you dive in.

Yes for me it does not really matter about the debt I end up with in the end, cause I can definitely pay that off once I become a dentist and start practicing, however it's getting the money in the first place that is proving difficult for me. The amount of money I can get for dentistry in the USA from RBC is $150k, not sure if I can get loans from multiples banks? I also can get about $150k from my parents home, and 50k from parents savings, my cousin also told me that if I need an extra 40-50k he'd supply it. I really hope I can make it into a Canadian school, because considering the fees in the USA makes me want to reconsider dentistry as a career path :/

[Pauls]

11 hours ago, ronzroyce97 said:

Yes for me it does not really matter about the debt I end up with in the end, cause I can definitely pay that off once I become a dentist and start practicing, however it's getting the money in the first place that is proving difficult for me. The amount of money I can get for dentistry in the USA from RBC is $150k, not sure if I can get loans from multiples banks? I also can get about $150k from my parents home, and 50k from parents savings, my cousin also told me that if I need an extra 40-50k he'd supply it. I really hope I can make it into a Canadian school, because considering the fees in the USA makes me want to reconsider dentistry as a career path :/

A dental student accrues 400k student loan debt then with interest its 600k over 12 years. This will choke you for rest of your life. You pay debt after taxes and interest and your monthly payment will be something crazy like 6000 per month. and you are saying it doesn't matter about the debt you end up with? 600k for dental tuition is insane!! it doesn't make any sense. Try to stay in Canada or a cheap school and keep your debt low. 

[longteethgriffy]

14 minutes ago, Pauls said:

A dental student accrues 400k student loan debt then with interest its 600k over 12 years. This will choke you for rest of your life. You pay debt after taxes and interest and your monthly payment will be something crazy like 6000 per month. and you are saying it doesn't matter about the debt you end up with? 600k for dental tuition is insane!! it doesn't make any sense. Try to stay in Canada or a cheap school and keep your debt low. 

Maybe you’re being a little excessive with the “it’ll choke you for life” part. It’s true he’ll end up with a lot more debt if he goes to the US to study but I don’t really think it would be insane to go to the US as a last resort if he really wants to be a dentist (not saying you said that). You also can’t underestimate how much a dentist actually makes and not just reported.

[la marzocco]

 

34 minutes ago, WE WUZ KANGZ said:

Maybe you’re being a little excessive with the “it’ll choke you for life” part. It’s true he’ll end up with a lot more debt if he goes to the US to study but I don’t really think it would be insane to go to the US as a last resort if he really wants to be a dentist (not saying you said that). You also can’t underestimate how much a dentist actually makes and not just reported.

OP, end of the day, you need to be comfortable with the leverage you're loading on. Some people are comfortable with the high leverage position that comes with going to the US for professional school with the expectation of earning that back in the medium term and that is perfectly fine. It is also fine to not feel comfortable.

[WomboCombo]

8 hours ago, Pauls said:

A dental student accrues 400k student loan debt then with interest its 600k over 12 years. This will choke you for rest of your life. You pay debt after taxes and interest and your monthly payment will be something crazy like 6000 per month. and you are saying it doesn't matter about the debt you end up with? 600k for dental tuition is insane!! it doesn't make any sense. Try to stay in Canada or a cheap school and keep your debt low. 

This is assuming they don't specialize. If you specialize, you may need to tack on 75-300K as well (and living expenses and interest from delaying payments for another 3 years)! And this is USD, not CAD.

[JohnGrisham]

On 12/14/2017 at 6:36 AM, WE WUZ KANGZ said:

Maybe you’re being a little excessive with the “it’ll choke you for life” part. It’s true he’ll end up with a lot more debt if he goes to the US to study but I don’t really think it would be insane to go to the US as a last resort if he really wants to be a dentist (not saying you said that). You also can’t underestimate how much a dentist actually makes and not just reported.

The only people going south these days for that kind of tuition are those with well off or middle class parents who will service the debt for them.

 

If you dont have that it is not even possible to go south. 

[JohnGrisham]

On 12/14/2017 at 6:36 AM, WE WUZ KANGZ said:

Maybe you’re being a little excessive with the “it’ll choke you for life” part. It’s true he’ll end up with a lot more debt if he goes to the US to study but I don’t really think it would be insane to go to the US as a last resort if he really wants to be a dentist (not saying you said that). You also can’t underestimate how much a dentist actually makes and not just reported.

Know many dentists. Thing is most students want to stay in the city. Cities are saturated in many cases. You are not making 200k in the city as a new grad. If you think that then have fun.

[longteethgriffy]

50 minutes ago, JohnGrisham said:

Know many dentists. Thing is most students want to stay in the city. Cities are saturated in many cases. You are not making 200k in the city as a new grad. If you think that then have fun.

Never said you were going to make 200k in the city as a new grad I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The debt he mentioned won't choke him for life. Maybe it wasn't meant literally but I didn't wanna scare the poster into thinking his life was screwed if he had to go down. 

[JohnGrisham]

6 minutes ago, WE WUZ KANGZ said:

Never said you were going to make 200k in the city as a new grad I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The debt he mentioned won't choke him for life. Maybe it wasn't meant literally but I didn't wanna scare the poster into thinking his life was screwed if he had to go down. 

I guess my point was, if youre making 80-100k as an associate, then servicing a 400-600k debt, and living costs...its going to be quite some time until youre able to start making any financial or career moves, or save for retirement etc etc. 

BUT to show you im not one-sided, the counter point is, that anyone who actually attends the US already has to have family support(since loans do not come close to covering it) - so chances are they won't have to worry about servicing that debt right away (or at all) in the same way as someone who would normally have to service debt with interest accumulating etc.

So essentially if you have disposable funds at hand, it likely won't effect you either way, and you'll continue on just fine. 

The ones that are at risk of being perpetually choked, are those who's family re-mortgage their house or get HELOC's but cant truly afford to service the debt on behalf of the student. So the student then does have to start making payments post-graduate etc. Hopefully financial checks and balances are in place enough that this sort of situation doesn't happen too often.

 

[WomboCombo]

4 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

Know many dentists. Thing is most students want to stay in the city. Cities are saturated in many cases. You are not making 200k in the city as a new grad. If you think that then have fun.

Know many dentists as well. A region can be "saturated" yet some practices can be doing much better (multiple times better) compared to the one across the block. There are too many variables to determine the success of a practice and the earning potential of a associateship (how many hours are you planning to work? what type of procedures are you capable of performing? how efficient are you as a practitioner? what types of patients is your principal willing to funnel to you? and etc.). 

Additionally, it is quite possible that OP is happy to work in an area of need versus a city. That should also be factored into OP's decision-making.

As for whether one is capable of making 200k in the city as a new grad - it is very unlikely - but go somewhere in need (and I am not talking about in the middle of nowhere) and that figure has been hit on a 5 day workweek. I think a more reasonable target is 150k for an associate who is willing to work in an area of need in their first year.

2 hours ago, JohnGrisham said:

I guess my point was, if youre making 80-100k as an associate, then servicing a 400-600k debt, and living costs...its going to be quite some time until youre able to start making any financial or career moves, or save for retirement etc etc. 

80-100k as an associate... well the thing is that even in California (dubbed "denti-cal"), their starting is at the very worst $350/day (in SoCal) or a certain % of production or collections (whichever is higher). Even in SoCal (IMO the worst dental market in North America), you will still be able to hit $100k as a new grad (leave SoCal and head to NorCal and other areas and you will be doing $450/day and up). Low 6 figures in the first year for a new grad is very realistic in Canada, even in the GTA (assuming full-time).

Regardless, the debt load is monstrous compared to the income for sure. 

It's always good to be informed of the financial considerations before jumping into professional school.

[JeBron Lames]

3 hours ago, Steins;Gate said:

Know many dentists as well. A region can be "saturated" yet some practices can be doing much better (multiple times better) compared to the one across the block. There are too many variables to determine the success of a practice and the earning potential of a associateship (how many hours are you planning to work? what type of procedures are you capable of performing? how efficient are you as a practitioner? what types of patients is your principal willing to funnel to you? and etc.). 

Additionally, it is quite possible that OP is happy to work in an area of need versus a city. That should also be factored into OP's decision-making.

As for whether one is capable of making 200k in the city as a new grad - it is very unlikely - but go somewhere in need (and I am not talking about in the middle of nowhere) and that figure has been hit on a 5 day workweek. I think a more reasonable target is 150k for an associate who is willing to work in an area of need in their first year.

80-100k as an associate... well the thing is that even in California (dubbed "denti-cal"), their starting is at the very worst $350/day (in SoCal) or a certain % of production or collections (whichever is higher). Even in SoCal (IMO the worst dental market in North America), you will still be able to hit $100k as a new grad (leave SoCal and head to NorCal and other areas and you will be doing $450/day and up). Low 6 figures in the first year for a new grad is very realistic in Canada, even in the GTA (assuming full-time).

Regardless, the debt load is monstrous compared to the income for sure. 

It's always good to be informed of the financial considerations before jumping into professional school.

Where did you get these numbers/info from? I am sort of curious. 

[cleanup]

All I'll say is people who take on that amount of debt better really, really, really love dentistry.