salary of dr(med) vs dentist

[Guest DM174]

How does the salary's of medical doctors compare with dentist in Toronto, taking into account overead cost, taxes, etc.Is one proffession considerd more profitable than the other?

thanx

[Guest abigunit]

Dentistry is more profitable, and you start making money sooner because you don't have to do a residency.

[Guest strider2004]

Prove that dentistry is more profitable. In medicine you ALSO start making money after you graduate, during residency.

[Guest abigunit]

Why don't you ask me to prove the sky is blue?

 

I don't have to prove it, the fact is that medicine and dentistry work on a system of piece work, or fee for service. Basic procedures in medicine are held down by a single payer system, dentistry is not.

 

In fact you CANNOT find a single procedure, even a heart lung transplant, that pays more that ongoing orthodontic care for a child. Dr. Sashi will hopefully back me up on this, but I know braces cost $5000-8000. A Cardiopulmonary transplantation is $2484.55, R874 in schedule of benefits of Ontario.

 

Proof Positive.

 

www.health.gov.on.ca/engl...cardio.pdf

 

Tell this person the truth, medicine is underpaid in Canada.

[Guest wattyjl]

wouldn't there be a lot more overhead involved in dentistry? at least, compared to cardiology which is supported publicly?

 

also, 5-8K is for ~2y of braces, 2.5K is for one/a few days (give or take) of a CP transplant.

 

i'm talking about something i don't really know about but i'm not convinced it's as simple as you make it out to be, abigunit.

[Guest strider2004]

Actually, that $2400 quote was for the procedure itself, so a single day's pay. Every 30 min visit to the patient in the ICU would be another $170 for comprehensive, ventilatory care for maybe 7-10 days and perhaps another 2-week stay in the hospital at about $23/5 min visit and now the surgeon and orthodontist(who is also a dental specialist and requires extra training) are tied at around $4500. Voila!

 

But yes, that' a very poor marker of salary. The tried and true method is salary surveys, showing that physicians are STILL the highest paid profession in Canada. Tack on the the respect of others(surveys showing that physicians are the most respected profession, and I think 2nd most trusted behind nursing) and the personal satisfaction from being involved in peoples lives throughout their lives and you hae the makings of a pretty satisfying profession.

 

Perhaps medicine isn't as underpaid as dentistry is overpaid. You may have heard grumblings that the gov't is looking at the increasing cost of dental care and may consider bringing it under the public umbrella at a future date.

 

You don't have to prove to me that the sky is blue. I can however explain to you WHY the sky is blue, if you are curious.

[Guest peachy]

Obviously, it's not as simple as saying that one profession earns more than the other. Medicine is a group of professions, and different specialties make vastly different salaries. Also, how many hours you work makes a huge difference in salary too. Both doctors and dentists who work hard and manage their careers or businesses appropriately will be able to make extremely good salaries ... it seems meaningless to debate whether doctors or dentists earn more!

[Guest abigunit]

That case will take 12-24 hours.

 

The fee includes hospital visits for two weeks after. The ICU doc gets the fee you mentioned. Visits post op are 18.75. Read the surgical preamble.

 

The difficulty involved is twenty times greater.

 

How can you undervalue medicine so much. Besides how many $5000 brace cases can a orthodontist have on the go compared to how many CP transplants a surgeon can have on the go. Because of OR time rationing.

[Guest abigunit]

The trick about salary surveys is the accounting tricks.

 

Dentists incorporate their practices, then pay themselves an undervalued salary to defer tax costs. They then use the capital in their corporations to purchace all the niceties they would like.

 

Doctors have been denied that option in Ontario. You would have to compare the earnings of a dental corporation to the salary of a doctor. That is a significant difference.

 

The question asked to start this was which is more profitable.

 

Tell the truth, dentistry is more profitable.

[Guest Cowboy Mouse]

In spite of my low opinion of abigunit, i cautiously side with him. From my practicing dentist friends, I see that they are earning a nice income compared to my resident friends. Things appear to even out after residency: I know a few newly graduated residents that are finally buying things they've wanted for some time (a house, a change of pants, whatever).

 

However, to the original poster on this thread, I can mention that you'll spend between 6 and 11 years in the poorhouse with a nasty 6 figure debt if you go into medicine. That's why I see medicine as a vocation, not a job. As a doctor, you'll certainly have an objectively enviable income, but this will be overwhelmingly offset by draconian working conditions.

 

You'd better derive tons of pleasure from from the material you study, from the patients you help (but rarely cure), and from the mentors you aspire to imitate. Otherwise, don't bother.

 

For example, I'm having a GREAT day because I've just taught myself to do a really slick friction knot, and I can't wait to go to the OR and try it out.

 

and, abigunit, relax dude.

[Guest strider2004]

The surgical preamble does not mention a two-week hospital visit billing. Don't forget the extra $888 for removing the doner hear-lung. There are also fees to the anesthesiologists, surgical assistants, nurses. The orthodontic fee is all encompassing and takes everyone's wage into account. Are orthodontists overpaid? Yes. However it is a cosmetic procedure and fits supply/demand. If insurance companies were not involved, then dentists would make a lot less money. I'm quite surprised that HMOs haven't gotten into the dentistry business.

Cardiothoracic surgeons are not hurting for money either. Starting salary(SALARY, no overhead) at Queen's is $500,000.

 

 

Actually, physicians in Ontario are now allowed to incorporate as well. However with our tax rate, this is only beneficial if our gross billings are over $300k, which is relevant for specialities but not so much for family physicians.

 

Salary surveys also don't necessarily rely on government tax reporting. This is because you don't have to report your profession on your tax return. They can be self-reporting surveys which would likely be more honest. There are several internet sites which do their own research into salary surveys and they seem pretty independent. They say that a general dentist has the income equivalent to a general practitioner and a dental specialist has the income of a medical specialist. Also, most starting dentists do not start out with their own practice and you either have to BUY your own practice or you have to build it or otherwise work under someone else as an associate.

 

The definition of profitable is also a very tricky term, no? It's also synonymous with rewarding but not quite. Profit tends to only mean money. There are many non-monetary benefits to all professions and obviously while I find medicine rewarding, others may not.

[Guest abigunit]

"The surgical preamble does not mention a two-week hospital visit billing."

 

Strider, please don't lie. This is taken from:

 

www.health.gov.on.ca/engl...surpre.pdf

 

Surgical Services which are not listed as a “Z” code: in addition to the above, the fee for this service

includes the following.

1. Pre-operative Care and Visits

Pre-operative hospital visits for the 2 days prior to surgery.

2. Post-operative Care and Visits

a. Post-operative care and visits associated with the proce dure to hospital in-patient for up to

2 weeks post-operatively, and making arrangements for dis charge.

b. If ap pro pri ate one post-op er a tive fol low-up visit with a pa tient when not or no lon ger a

hos pi tal in-pa tient.

[Guest physiology]

As it stands, the Canadian economy isn't glutted with physicians. However, I can't say the same about dentists. Every local newspaper I look in, I see advertisements for free teeth whitening if I sign on with this dentist or whatever.

 

Don't forget, that the start-up costs for a dentist are extremely high. Their autonomy after dental school is severely restricted by their enormous debt loads (tuition at UBC for dental students is $40 000/year) and by the fact that overhead costs for starting up an office are also jaw-droppingly high. As a result, they have to work out of the offices of another dentist, until they have enough money to buy someone else's practice or start up their own.

 

Yes, orthodontists make a lot of money. But they also have extremely high overhead. My orthodontist runs his clinic like a factory. There are 4-5 dental hygienists, each commanding relatively high salaries, expensive X-ray machines, etc.

 

So all in all, I think it's about the same.

[Guest ctrain07]

Fact is that there is huge variety in what both doctors and dentists make, so it is very difficult to simply say one makes more than the other. However, in my home town of about 40,000 people I know of a family which had two brothers, one was a dentist and one was a family doc. After a few years the doc went back to school to do dentistry because he was extremely enviable of the $$$ that his brother was making.

[Guest strider2004]

Ahhh..see you need to give me a source of surgical preamble, because I was looking at the surgical preamble at the previous link that you gave (which had no such thing). I stand corrected. I'm glad we got that one sorted out!

I also found out that a liver transplant bills (donor + recipient) $2694.85 + 945.60 and a repeat transplant(damn those faulty livers!) bills 3702.15!!

 

So what do you think about what I said involving the billing of the anesthetist, surgical assistant, and other nursing care surrounding the case? In fact if you include the intensivist billing, the total number would be much higher. In fact if you added it all up and charged it to an outside visitor(ie an American) I bet the total charge would be closer to $20,000 than $2000.

 

I'm glad that you sent that new link because I was able to find the DENTAL schedule of benefits that the Ontario government sets out for DENTAL procedures done in the hospital. The largest billing procedure seems to be A LeFort III Osteotomy which is major facial reconstruction at a total of $1980, similar to the billing by an ENT surgeon. This goes to show that outpatient elective procedures should not be compared to emergency procedures, lest we get into plastic surgery and all that stuff.

 

Ahh..to be post-call and have a point to make...

[Guest macMDstudent]

Dentists as mentioned have high overhead. They have to have huge equipement capital costs at the beginning for equipment. The single biggest expense in any organization is salaries and lots staff to pay (reception/billing and hygenists). Plus they have to spend a lot of advertising as mentioned. You have to be more of a marketing type in dentistry it seems to me when you look at the yellow pages and see the big colour ads.

 

Plus you have to like the work! I personally couldn't stand looking in mouth after mouth all day. I would feel like a total sell-out trying to convince people that they need to bleach their teeth or they will be socially unacceptable. How nice is it to graduate from medicine/residency, hang your shingle and have a full practice with no effort. Building a practice in dentistry and most other professions takes time and marketing effort that physicians just don't have to do.

 

One thing that is not being mentioned is that private health professions like dentistry in Canada or physicians in the U.S. are at the mercy of the insurance industry. They spend more time and effort doing their billings, dealing with rejected claims or claims that will not be paid at the rate billed, which means going after the patient to pay the difference cash. Then the patient doesn't want to pay and you have to go to a collection agency, etc.

 

For all its faults, the adminstrative end of having a single payer systems saves lots of time, effort and frustration and streamlines the efficiency of running an office in medicine in Canada. More costs would be required to bill patients and all the separate insurance companies in private health care which drives up the cost overall of providing your service, and you end up writing off a lot of billings when they full cost is not paid.

[Guest DM174]

It seems it will be hard to get a really true answer to this question.All the med students seem to agree that medicine is more profitable, while the dental students think dentistry is.I guess we need a unbiased answer.

[Guest macMDstudent]

Here's the 1996 stats (all I could find, please post more recent if found).

 

Top taxable income by occupation (StatsCan average):

1. Judges $126, 426

2. Specialist Physicians $123,976

3. General/Family Physicians $107,620

4. Dentist $104,433

 

Note average HOUSEHOLD INCOME (includes all wage earners in household) in 1996 was $54,583. Doctors and dentists earned on average about double the average household income singlehandedly.

 

Apparently, it is hard to make money. As my father always said, if it was easy, everybody would do it!

 

Check the link yourselfs:

 

Income by occupation:

www.statcan.ca/english/ce...y12/t2.pdf

 

Average Income:

www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/famil61a.htm

[Guest bcdentalgirl]

"Plus you have to like the work! I personally couldn't stand looking in mouth after mouth all day. I would feel like a total sell-out trying to convince people that they need to bleach their teeth or they will be socially unacceptable. "

 

Shows what you know about the profession.

[Guest Tabeeba]

Hi guys,

 

I don't often post on this site, but I am a med student at Mac and I am a bit upset at the discussion on this thread. There is so much bickering about which profession makes more money. Bottom line is: If you are of the opinion that dentistry makes more money and that is what matters most to you, then drop out of medicine and apply to dentistry. Its a free country, no one will stop you.

Quite honestly, I would be terrified to know that my doctor is bitter and unhappy in their job because they don't make enough money...I would hope that they are in the medical profession for more noble reasons than the purely superficial. So please, just get out of medicine if your main concern is money...that mentality certainly is detrimental to the health of the population.

[Guest Steve U of T]

A virtuous person chooses their profession based on neither the promises of money or respect, but rather the fear that somebody else will do a worse job.

 

(by the way, I should note that I was paraphrasing Socrates, just to lend some credibility to my statement)

[Guest abigunit]

Of the two professions, medicine is rapidly becoming a job where one is a agent of the state rather than an individual with responsibilities to the patient and him/herself.

 

You are free in dentistry, but the government wants to control what you do in medicine.

[Guest endingsoon]

Of the two professions, medicine is rapidly becoming a job where one is a agent of the state rather than an individual with responsibilities to the patient and him/herself.

 

Huh?

 

 

Agent of the State? Because of OHIP and their limitations on billing and paying for certain meds/tests?

 

If you are going to make outlandish comments such as this please back them up with something more than "medicine is rapidly becoming a job where one is a agent of the state".

[Guest NobodyYouKnowDDS]

I just love these debates because when it comes down to it, seems like all that matters in these professions is money. Does it matter who makes more? Averages don't mean anything if you as an individual does not make the average or make beyond the average, especially when the average between the two professions differ by like $3000 Physician 107k vs. Dentist 104k. (ai yo, save money on that diamond ring and already you get 3k back)

 

Dentist has a lot less years worth of training than a doctor who makes a lot (surgeon need 6 year, ortho in USA need 2 year).. General dentist can make a lot too. It's a business, you don't get capped. Overhead may be high, but you would gross high too if you had multiple practices. Physician are capped. So the top dentist might actually make more than the top surgeon/physician even though the average of physician is higher b/c you have dentist who make less than average like your associates etc.

 

Both professions still make NOTHING compared to those top Financial guys and pro athletes. Health professions are just a stable source of income. If you want to be wealthy, your main income CANNOT be from here..but other business activities. I don't even know why you would argue over this. It's almost as if you are getting into the business for money only. But if it is only money then choose dentistry because at least there is a less likely chance you will kill someone.

 

If you are not in med school or dental school yet you shouldn't even talk about this because you might not even get in kakakkaa:rollin

 

and if you are, who cares, you're gonna be rich. What's a few k's here and there?

:lol

 

What good is money if you don't spend and always work for long hours like a surgeon does? Then in that case you know that there is more than monetary reason why people become surgeons. Think about it, it's really inefficient way to make money. You go through like ~12-14 years of training/school on average (3-4 undergrad, 3-4 med school, 6 residency), then u work all the time, on call, no life, HIGH liability.

 

Dentist work 8 hours and can go home....but still need to work hard and have liability etc.

 

You want money? Stick with business ba.

Both profession are prestige, both profession are doctors, both are well respected and earn a good living what more do you want? Who cares who is better and who is worse...people so greedy. Best dentist better than average physician, best physician better than average dentist.

 

 

Personal opinion, people get highly offended because it is an insult to their profession....BUt I thought people become medical doctors just to help people....

 

I became a dentist because I like teeth and also money is good and medicine makes me sick, in anatomy we opened up a body I was totally digusted, too much responsibility, too much dedication, I am helping people...people = me, myself and my family kakkakaka... :lol Respect means jack to me, because to me if you have a nice car people will respect you anyways since society these days so superficial.....(it's a joke, relax dont' get so analytical.)

 

People are just insecure...be happy with what you have, happy people = happy doctors happy doctors = happy patients

[Guest abigunit]

Needed a dentist to say that.

 

Can't have multiple practices as a doctor. Cap vs no cap. Dentists can bill for what their hygenist does, or at least skim some of the earnings. As a doctor your nurse is your liability, costs you money out of billings.

 

Denists have the POTENTIAL to make much more with less time invested in education, without being on call.

 

In addition:

 

If you as a doctor, make a decision, that selects the costs to the system over the care of the patient, then you are an agent of government.

 

If you choose the lesser cost for the sake of your patient, or because you believe the evidence is equivocal, then you are acting as a doctor.

 

It is not what you do, but the way you get to the end-point.

 

It doesn't matter anyways, within twenty years family practice will be so guidelines based that any nurse clinician could easily replace any family doctor. I hear pharmacists are vying to communicate a diagnosis and prescribe too. I'm sure they would also be a cheap source of labour for the government.