salary of dr(med) vs dentist

[Guest endingsoon]

You could argue that a lot of what a family doctor does could be done by a pharmacist or nurse; certainely dealing with diabetes or hypertension is largely based on guidelines.

 

However, I just don't see the GP being phased out that easy. Pharmacists are not diagnosticians; sure they can treat known disease, but they aren't going to sit there and sort through the patient with lymphadenopathy to figure out whats going on.

 

However, if you have a patient with CAD or CHF a pharamcist can do a great job of manging them medically.

 

I can see some chronic care and 'easy' issues such as CAD/CHF being outsourced to other professionals, but I just don't see the GP being outcast that easy.

 

As for your comment about agent of the state, I can where you are coming from. There is a reason we give ASA and not Plavix to prevent CVAs and ignore the CAPRI trial, b.c the gov't says we have to fail the cheaper alternative first. So, yes we do become agents of the system. However we do still have plenty of dignaostic freedom to explore patients and treat them as best we can, albeight with some gov't regulations.

[Guest abigunit]

Editorial board, Toronto star, one paragraph of article about healthcare.

 

----------------------------

 

I was a pharmacist before I retired and over the course of my professional life I must have advised thousands of people about their minor ailments, coughs, colds, allergies, hemorrhoids, headaches, etc. That is the bulk of the work done by general practitioners. You cannot lower the fee for general practitioners but you can, over a reasonable period of time, phase out the simple work they do, and replace them with nurse practitioners and pharmacist practitioners at a much lower cost.

 

______________________________

 

The background is that this guy claims that the costs in the health care system are driven by the GP. Policy makers, with no medical education, see this and say, "Hmm, he's right, those darn docs are expensive."

 

BTW, the guy who wrote this owned 10 Shopper's drug marts at one time. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Guest MacStudent]

Hello all,

 

I'm not hear to say that doctors make more than dentists or vice versa.

 

However, having worked at both a family practice with physicians who have been in the field for a long time as well as in a dental clinic with dentists who have been in the field for a long time, I can say this much from my observations: The bottom line really is money. Maybe it was just the docS or dentS that i've worked with, but at the end of the day, I can assure you that they were more interested in their billings than in following their treatment plans for their patients. My only solace is that there are exceptions to every rule.

[Guest abigunit]

Exactly, it has to be about money. I do not deny there is altruism and professionalism.

 

But lets get real, would you go into medicine, pay the tuition you are paying now, sacrifice as much as you are if there wasn't some financial benefit at the end.

 

Saying you'll always have a job is silly, as mentioned before and on other threads, there are tons of vocations that will guarantee employment.

 

In medicine you get paid reasonable well, although comparatively the remuneration is significantly depressed when compared to other developed nations. Some doctors in european countries snicker at Ontario's $17.30 for a minor office visit.

 

What's minor you ask?

 

Let's see what the Ontario schedule of benefits says...

 

" a brief history and examination of the affected part or region or mental or emotional disorder"

 

To my mind, evaluation of a sprained ankle and a prescription for pain and a device of some sort (tensor bandage) gives you $17.30. And I hope you didn't mis diagnose, you could get sued. After the costs for that visit, ie the 30% taken by your family health group (FHG), down to 12.11, then tax, assume 50% tax in Ontario, you get six bucks, give or take a buck.

 

In Bermuda, same diagnosis, non life threatening problem, $100 please, this happened to me.

 

You could look at this two ways, people are abusing the system and only really sick people should waste our health systems time, or realize that family medicine sucks.

 

BTW most specialties have these kind of underpaid codes too.

[Guest marbledust]

blah blah blah

:rollin

[Guest macMDstudent]

Here's a question: is there any evidence to suggest that higher physician incomes result in better population based health outcomes?

 

I don't know if any studies exist, but from tidbits I've "heard" would suggest otherwise. The country with what is probably the highest average physician income, the United States, has poor overall health outcomes. Scandavavian countries which have very high taxes and physicians earn very average incomes have better health outcomes on a population basis because of better access to health care, better social services and very little poverty.

 

Other than making physicians happier, does paying phyicians more "fix" the health care system?

[Guest abigunit]

I think it prevents migration and I think its about getting people to go into family practice.

 

Scandinavian countries are difficult to compare with Canada, but this link suggests that they make good money at 38 hours per week in the office. Very hard to do in any Canadian primary care model.

 

collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100...1/0045.htm

[Guest macMDstudent]

I have a few friends who are family docs and have switched to a Family Health Network on a capitation system from fee-for-service. They only work 3.5 days a week in their clinic and have increased their gross by 40% since switching and now take six weeks off every year. They also do some surgical assist in their time away from clinic, as well as some hospital work but rarely work more than 40-50 hours a week total work hours. They are very happy with the arrangements and how much money they are making now and see nothing onerous about the contract they signed. In fact, they feel that they practice better medicine now in this system, especially tracking preventative health visits for all their patients to ensure that they can collect the bonuses each year.

 

Judging by what they tell me, this system does seem good for family docs. It the fear of the unknown that is scaring a lot of doctors but those that switch are happy based on my experience.

[Guest medikeen]

macMDstudent,

 

Do the patients have to sign a contract that says they are only the patient of that team. I was presented with this kind of contract recently by my family doctor. It kinda felt like I was being coersed so she could make more money. Being young and healthy, I had not ever seen much of her and I didn't sign it because wherever I get into medical school, I get the impression that this group is my only source of health care. Now I don't have a family doctor at all because I am not part of the group.

[Guest macMDstudent]

There are benefits to the patients in a Family Health Network, it is not just so the doc makes more money. They are supposed to make more money as a trade off for being more available (either themselves or a colleague MD in the group) 24/7. Patients are given a "private" telehealth number that only enrolled patients have access to. RN's take the calls and if the RN thinks the person should speak to a MD they will be connected and the MD will decide if the patient needs to be seen. All the MD offices that are part of the FHN are supposed to be linked by Electronic Medical Records so when you see any one of the doctors in the group, the doctor will have access to your medical record and know your past medical history, medications, allergies etc. The benefit also is to the government to know that people have a doctor and to prevent "double doctoring" which drives up health care costs. It should also help prevent medical errors when patients see different doctors and the patient doesn't remember all their medications and health problems. This is a very common problem when people get all their health care from walk-in clinics and ER's all over the place. It really is to your benefit to have a FP/GP who oversees your medical care.

[Guest NobodyYouKnowDDS]

online.wsj.com/article_em...m4,00.html

 

From wallstreet journal.

[Guest macMDstudent]

Thank goodness for people's vanity. That Wall Street Journal shows thats how dentists are making the big bucks now, but on the basis of cosmetic procedures. I alluded to this earlier in the thread.

 

Its sad, but I have seen MD's caught up in "medical esthetics" that are making more money with their laser hair removal, Botox injections and glycolic facial peels than they do with OHIP billing. The competition is fierce in plastic surgery and dermatology to compete for the private money in this lucrative field. Family docs who are fed up with the system are moving into these fields too.

 

How much will the market bear?

[Guest marbledust]

The competition is fierce in plastic surgery and dermatology to compete for the private money in this lucrative field. Family docs who are fed up with the system are moving into these fields too.

 

I agree this is a disturbing trend. While I was shopping last weekend I came across a brand spanking new practice offering a whole whack of purely vanity procedures. What really struck me was that it was a group of family docs who had quit their practices, took a bunch of courses and training (most short term type of things in the US) and reinvented themselves. Not a derm or plastics surgeon among them.

 

Great for them, I am sure they are making a lot more money and working a lot less. Kinda @#%$ for their former patients though. Unless, of course, they want an injection or peel or whatever else...

 

By the way, it was a very swanky office. Almost like something out of Nip/Tuck

:lol

[Guest NobodyYouKnowDDS]

one word: OWNED.

[Guest marbledust]

one word: OWNED.

 

??

[Guest studentz]

My old orthodontist made a friggin killing. He kept everyone's initial mold in a box, and had hundreds if not well over a thousand of those little boxes.

 

Agent of the state is a bit extreme. In the US, physicians are agents of HMOs and have much more restricted practices than in Canada's "socialized system". HMOs routinely use cost-effectiveness as a measure of the physicians worth to the company and hiring/continued employment can be based on that alone.

 

I do, however, think physicians are undercompensated here to a certain extent because of the taxes and opportunity cost of becoming a physician. At my Queen's interview, I was discussing incentives for rural medicine and mentioned that many doctors graduating today will pay interest on their loans in excess of the total loan amount of doctors who graduated in the 80s or early 1990s. That debt load can be horrendous when you consider that residents aren't paid jack and many people want to get housing, a car etc that adds further debt. This isn't the profession to get into if you want to get rich, unless of course you do cosmetic plastics, derm or Lasik surgery.

 

As for Queen's heart surgeon's, how many are they hiring? I don't even think Queen's had a cardiac surgery residency position last year!

[Guest Littlebantha]

Does anyone have that link to UWO that had all the of relavent salary info for dents?

[Guest snoop99]

Money arguments are so boring.

 

Doctors are above average, not rich, you have to touch millions to be rich, not thousands to be well off like doctors/dentists.

 

But I guess not everyone has that new invention, or can sing/dance/rap/act, or that stuff just doesnt appeal to them.

 

My choice was easy, I like shopping for toys to give to kids, so I choose dentistry so I can give a toy to kids like transformers or glow in the dark @#%$.

 

Last point, rookie NBA salary 300,000, Shaq salary 30 million

You want to argue who makes more? Just be the SHAQ of medicine, or the SHAQ of dentistry, guaranteed you will make more than 99.9% of dentists or doctors if that is all that important to you

 

Peace out meds/dents. It feels so weird coming to the premed forum, I dont even know what is on the MCAT lol.

[Guest cheech10]

But I guess not everyone has that new invention, or can sing/dance/rap/act

 

The vast majority of rich people got that way because of inheritance, not one of these methods.

 

Just be the SHAQ of medicine, or the SHAQ of dentistry, guaranteed you will make more than 99.9% of dentists or doctors

 

Just how would someone be a doctor/dentist in the mold of Shaq? You make what you bill, +/- an amount depending on your business accumen, but even this won't break you out into the millions unless you make some crazy investments.

[Guest snoop99]

Of course not Cheech

 

I meant "shaq" in terms of making 500K as a doctor/dentist vs 80K which might be average, therefore making all these debates and complaints useless.

 

Really? Inheritance is that huge? I know if your parents were established since 1880 say, now that small business is huge, and you inherit billions, but imo lots of people are self made such as singers, actors, rappers, dancers, inventors, financial analysts, news personalities, whatever right.

 

Basically I'm sayin, you can make tons in anything you do, just be the best if thats important to you, but have fun too.

[Guest marbledust]

Money arguments are so boring.

 

I agree :rollin

[Guest cheech10]

I think Maclean's had an article on the rishest 100 Canadians, and ~65% got there via inheritance, IIRC.

[Guest RubberDamDents]

I think perhaps the key point is that both professions make a goood amount of money. Nothing compared to Shaq or Bill Gates...So people are just analyzing who makes more which is arbiturary since it varies among the individual. Averages don't mean much if you are a doctor and starving due to gambling debts or a janitor and wealthy. To say money isn't important would be naive. I was wondering if we can just say, both professions make a good amount and just leave it at that. No need for hierarchy.

[Guest noncestvrai]

What about inheritance as far as medicine?

 

I would think that in my class close to 60-70 % of people have relatives, if not parents, in medicine. To me that's kind of a concern, but then maybe not, maybe they make better doctors...

 

What do you guys think?

 

noncestvrai

[Guest snoop99]

It is easier for ppl to become what their parents are

 

If your pops or moms is a doctor/dentist, you know from day 1 at college you will be one, what the mcat is, what letter to get, etc etc. Plus your parents may want someone to take over their practice so you're set when you're out and they can retire. That's a sweet deal to be in.

 

It's no different that kids of actors who become actors, or ashlee simpson(sis of jessica), or aaron cartor (bro of nick)

etc etc etc, you can get examples in 100's of fields.

 

Why NOT? YOu have a person on the inside, valuable info, and if you like the work, go for it if your're parents do it. But if you're the first one in your family to be a doc/dent/actor/singer it's always that much sweeter, it's not as much expected, even though it's an accomplishment for anyone, but to me it is a bit sweeter, you know what i'm sayin? Not to take anything away from thoze with parents in the loop.