UBC sent out wrong statistics in letters for some!

[Guest BrainDrain]

theWonderer and Ian,

 

Those Stanford Med stats are very interesting in that it clearly demonstrates how the elite schools in the US are fighting for the "cream of the crop" in terms of applicants. There is a constant struggle between the top schools in order to recruit the best applicants and by looking at this report, it shows that the Stanford admissions committee is certainly accountable to a higher body (senate), thus they can't really do things "behind closed doors". In addition, the best applicants usually get multiple acceptances to choose from, with various schools wooing them with full scholarships. Very similar to what goes on in US college sports, the best schools need to attract the best recruits in order to build a successful program and they are ultimately accountable to the school, the alumni and fans.

 

UBC on the other hand differs from this philosophy in some aspects. Firstly, their applicant pool consists mainly of BC residents who apply to UBC and only UBC. In some ways UBC does have a monopoly in that they are not too worried about competing with other schools to recruit the 90%+ student with multiple acceptances. Secondly, what if UBC admissions was accountable to a higher body? (i.e. the provincial gov't that provides most of their funding)

 

I have nothing personal against UBC admissions because I have never applied but like theWonderer, I have friends who have 90%+ (and multiple acceptances) and have showed me the stats sheet that came with their UBC rejection letter (which by the way is a sad display of a school trying to put some objectivity into the process). That sheet tells the rejected applicant their percentiles but does not present how those numbers factor into the final decision to accept/reject. And to show how insignificant numbers are in the process, UBC even states that although their database gave out wrong percentile scores, those wrong numbers were not used in the final decisions. No kidding...no numbers were used in the final decision!

 

BrainDrain

[Guest maniac]

Aren't we beating a dead horse here? All these things aside, we will never be able to change the decisions made by the ad com. Can we please get on with other more important things?

 

Sorry, just had to add my $0.02.

[Guest Ian Wong]

BrainDrain,<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Firstly, their applicant pool consists mainly of BC residents who apply to UBC and only UBC.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Where did you get this from? I've never heard of this until Thewonderer proposed it. I think the truth is the opposite; most people who apply to medical school are NOT naive enough to apply to only one school. Putting all your eggs in one basket, especially when the statistics over the last several years have shown an 80% overall rejection rate for all applicants, makes applying to one school not a smart decision at all.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> In some ways UBC does have a monopoly in that they are not too worried about competing with other schools to recruit the 90%+ student with multiple acceptances.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->You just contradicted yourself right here. If those 90+% students have multiple acceptance letters, then UBC *is* competing for their acceptance letter. Just look at all of Thewonderer's friends who have apparently ended up at other medical schools. UBC was competing for those students to (we interviewed them, after all), but ultimately these people went elsewhere. That's our loss, and their loss too.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote>Quote:<hr> Secondly, what if UBC admissions was accountable to a higher body?<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->??? We are. Do you think the funding from the medical school, and the need to be re-accredited on a regular basis by the ACMC just goes right through without analysis? Even the funding of the Northern Medical Program expansion hinged on the government's approval. I'm frankly a little stunned that you think the UBC medical school isn't an entity that is subject to regular scrutiny, particularly in light of the current BC physician crisis and the fact that UBC med school is a prime source of BC physicians and sole provider of BC medical graduates. Each medical student costs the BC government over $50,000 per year to educate. They're looking to recoup that investment.

 

On the entirely different subject of US med admissions, there are so many more applicants per school that using numbers is the only practical way to weed people out. It's not surprising therefore that the most competitive medical schools would boast applicants with higher GPA and MCAT scores. They've got a much larger pool to draw from, and all the incentives in the world to get applicants with high numbers so they can show off those statistics at the next university fair in order to attract the next generation of applicants with high numbers and fat wallets. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think a medical school which isn't coerced by this mentality has the potential to look deeper than the numbers to assess the other aspects of each person's application.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest BC guy]

Ian, you wrote that "UBC was competing for those students too............but ultimately these people went elsewhere". From reading the posts here I was under the impression that those 90+ GPA applicants went elsewhere b/c UBC did not accept them, not b/c they wanted to go elsewhere. If that is the case, then where and when is UBC competing for these 90+ applicants? Just giving them interviews with no acceptance hardly qualifies for competing with other schools for them. Why interview them at all? b/c these 90+ people qualify with the set criteria for receiving an interview i.e. enough EC etc etc.

Just looking at the stats for UBC, the chances for admissions for applicants with 90+ is almost nil. My thoughts: this is just a fact of life with the current UBC med admissions and/or deanery and since they are given this job, it is their prerogative to reject 90+s if they so wish. Just accept it b/c the stats for the GPAs given for the past 5 years or so tells you that things will remain status quo.

[Guest candybits]

BTW, I'm new to this forum entirely, so hello everyone!

 

I actually received a rejection letter from UBC whilst I was abroad (and my bf opened it up for me and told me the sad news..). I was very much frustrated and didn't even bother to ask my bf if there was any statistics sheets included or my personal performance ratings for that matter. He just assumed I didn't want to listen to the rest of the rejection letter after the phrase "we regret to inform you..." and kinda chucked the letter away. So I gathered actually made an overseas call to UBC from Asia to ask the admissions personnel myself. To my surprise, they informed me that I've been accepted and was wondering why I haven't signed and returned the acceptance agreement form.

 

Of course, you can realize how surprised I must've been by this news! I ask them when they sent out the acceptance letter, and it was something like 3 weeks ago, and my bf, who was sort of taking care of my mail, swears that nothing came in the mail from UBC. They agreed to send me another duplicate copy of everything, and shortly it did come in the mail. I was so exasperated by this whole experience, not to mention my rather *troubling* interview with one of the doctors (after which, I submitted an official letter of complaint.)

 

I've also been accepted by McGill shortly after, and finally made up my to attend McGill instead, but just to wanted to share with you guys something as disastrous as my experience did happen!!

[Guest Thewonderer]

Ian has brought up some issues that were (I agree) beaten to dead horse (or pulp) in the other thread. I pretty much gave my answers to those questions in the other thread already. I will spare you guys from reading them again.

 

However, my whole point of the past couple posts is to point out how the admissions might have been different back then in 1996 or 1997 compared to 2000 and 2001. Ian thinks they have not changed much over the years, while I think it certainly has. The numbers are there. You all can take whatever interpretation you want from them.

 

My other point is to bring out the Stanford internal report which I find is quite interesting!

 

Cheers!

 

Now, just pretend that Ian and I have never posted and carry on with your conversation

[Guest JeansAndATshirt]

One thing that I would like to add, as an accepted applicant, is that one thing UBC could improve upon is their "attitude" toward applicants.

 

It would be nice if everyone knew, not just select vancouverites, friends of previous applicants or adcoms, or 2nd time applicants, that interviewers would purposely be a$$holes to see what you're made of.

 

The worst part though, is the rejection letter. It f@#king hurts. Unlike other Universities, which write their letters as thank you's for applying, UBC chooses to bluntly state: your file has been reviewed...we are unable to offer you a place. It is almost confrontational. Well, that's how my friend felt towards it... and I agreed with her.

 

I was accepted by UBC, and I'm happy to be going there. I personally like how non-academic criteria matters. I don't like the UBC attitude however. I have some optimistic confidence that the students aren't that bad, that's why I'm going there - but I can totally understand why some people are sour.

 

UBC doesn't just compare numbers from your grades...they size up your whole life. Jet fighter pilots are better than plain nerds. Olympic athletes are obviously better people than those who participate in intramural sports. People invest a lot emotionally into these applications. It's hard to dissociate yourself from it when they didn't just size up your academic grades on a page.

 

I don't know what most people give as their reasons for choosing other schools over UBC, but from the people I know it has to do with their elitist attitude. A friend of mine told UBC she chose Calgary instead because they offered her a scholarship. UBC told her getting accepted to UBC is like getting a scholarship elsewhere. It's sad.

[Guest Beaver]

Again

 

Its probably a good school, as in my opinion a good school is defined by a great group of fellow students.

 

But as far as the faculty and the school itself, I would have to agree with you. I know of 3 people who will turn down UBC to go to other schools because they experienced the same vibe as you encountered. I myself Kind of felt as though I was being made to feel not worthy of the school. I remember chatting with an a faculty member the day before my interview and he was cutting up my research and the fact that I did a Phd from Toronto. In the interview I got a lot of slack for not trying to make the Olympic team. Its fine to apply pressure and see how one reacts but to spend 18 minutes (I looked down on my watch I couldn't believe it) on the Olympic hockey thing was frankly unprofessional. Fine if you must badger people about nonsense spend 8 minutes and use the extra 10 minutes to find out about some of the activities that I have done which ARE RELEVANT TO MY POTENTIAL SUCCESS AS A DOCTOR.

 

Like I've heard others say, it ain't never gonna be Harvard so why bother with the elitism. I really felt as though they were trying to find anything to mark me down for rather than trying to learn about me and get a sense of the positive aspects I could bring to medicine. It was totally different from my experience at all of the other schools I interviewed with.

[Guest Mocha]

Hi Candybits,

 

I was wondering if you could give a bit more info. about your interview experience. I too had a very *interesting* interview with a doctor and was contemplating on complaining then...but I didn't b/c I thought it might be one of those "stress" types of interviews. After receiving a rejection letter stating that my percentile was 97 for the interviews and then having it changed to a much much lower score (try a drop of 60 percentile points), I would really appreciate your thoughts on the interview and what happened after you complained before I go to see the admissions personnel.

[Guest candybits]

Hi Mocha,

 

I know I took an incredible amount of time to reply a post, but I've been travelling, relocating, moving for the past month or so and I haven't had the chance to get online.

 

Although this is all in the past, I'd still like to share my own experience with the interview process at UBC and inform some of you of how ludicrous it really was. To tell you a bit about my interview experience, it was with an "Asian doctor" of the same ethnicity as I am, and who happened to have the exactly same last name (which is really a common name, btw) on top of that. The first thing he said to me when I entered the room was, "Do I know you?" I guess he asked the question because of the impartiality issue, so I firmly answered "No" because he indeed was a complete stranger to me. Then he kept nagging on me on this issue for like 10 minutes saying stuff like, "Do I know your parents? I think I've seen you somewhere at church..." blah blah blah. This got to the point that it was getting really unprofesisonal, and I told him that I would really appreciate if he'd just carry on with the interview.

 

Most of the interview relied heavily on my ethnic background, and he was asking questions like, "Do you speak ***** (the language of my ethnicity)?" I answered "yes." He goes, "Well, I don't." Did I care that he didn't speak it? Ummmm NO?!?!?! Then he goes, "Do you go back to visit *** (country of my origin)?" I answered yes, since my parents have moved back there for good and I do go back every summer to spend time with them. Then he proceeds to ask me this really inappropriate question, "Well, if you do speak the language and your folks acutally live there, I don't see why you don't go back there to study medicine? I think that'll suit you much better." I was so shocked by what he said and so very offended that I didn't know what to say for a moment. He basically made comments regarding how he has seen so many Asian kids trying to get into med school without really knowing what it's all about for the money, prestige and most of all, the pressure set upon them by their parents. This verbal attack went on for quite some time, and I just about had it, which is why I went straight to the payphone to make a phone call to the admissions office to make an official complaint.

 

I'm sure some of you had some really unique and interesting interviews at UBC, and my expeirience by no means is representative of the quality of interview process as a whole at UBC. But I was simply abhorred by this one doctor in particular, who displayed so much hatred against the people of his own ethnic background.

[Guest wierded out]

First of all: that smacks of racism. If you go to Brock Hall to the second floor, you will find the Equity office. Please, for all our sakes, lodge a complaint with the University itself. You deserve better!

[Guest candybits]

Umm, I already did.. but thanks for your passionate input anyways.

[Guest D]

Hey,

What was their problem with you doing your PhD at U of T? As far as research reputation and funding, U of T beats UBC hands down.

 

And what did they say about the Olympics? I thought it was just an example of something that would be a bonus if you had it. For them to actually make a big deal out of you NOT being in the Olympics is nothing short of a disgrace. Did any of them participate in the Olympics? You're applying to medical school for goodness sake, not for a position on a professional sports team.

 

As you said, the elitist attitude is pretty stupid on their part since anyone into that sort of thing would never pick UBC anyway.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

My understanding is that U of T and UBC actually run pretty close in terms of the esteem with which academics hold their undergrad and grad programs, and their med school's 4.85 score on the Gourman report is pretty close to U of T's 4.90 (as long as you don't think the gourman is full of bs). In fact, for a number of programs of study (particularly molecular biology - there's a lot of progressive research and commercial contacts with west coast biotech companies,) I've heard a number of reliable sources argue that UBC beats U of T.

 

Of course the last time I checked this stuff out for myself was 1997, when I was applying to undergrad schools.

[Guest JSS02]

The Gourman Report is full of BS. He wasn't clear with the criteria used, and many people feel it's even MORE flawed than the US News rankings.

 

Besides, how accurate can it be if UWO meds isn't at the top?

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Nice one JSS02.

 

I hope Ian doesn't go and blacklist all us UWO students from the board. . .

 

BTW - you going to sign up to be a moderator or what?

[Guest Beaver]

Well I guess its all water under the bridge......but it wasn't the best experience I've had. I actually felt embarrassed for them and their lack of professionalism. I see by some other posts that they even managed to stoop lower and generate some good ol' fashioned racism during their interviews. I guess I got off easy, only having to field questions about why I sucked so badly in hockey that the Canadian Olympic team wouldn't even want me.

 

As far as UofT as a research institution, hands down it is reputed to be the best. If you are considering medical research or graduate study, go for UofT. Internationally it holds up to the top schools of the world. There is more grant funding and top notch cutting edge research going on that rivals all of the other Canadian schools put together. UofT has had more discoveries and more drug developments than all of the other Canadian schools combined. It has garnished the respect of the international medical community and thus receives tons of great funding both private and public. Anyways there's my UofT pitch

 

If you go to the US, UofT will get you recognition instantly, If you say UBC they will ask you ......UBC? Is that near Alaska.

[Guest UWOMED2005]

Hey Beaver. . . haven't seen you post in a while. What have you been up to? What made you choose this moment to make your grand return? You used to post here a lot but I haven't seen you post at all since you got into U of T. I also noticed this was one of the first posts you didn't address me as 'Mr. Rader.'

 

I wouldn't be so confident most American schools have heard of U of T. In Switzerland at the least, they've heard of McGill and l'Université de Montréal (because of the French link), but I'm sorry to burst your bubble but noone here has heard of U of T. I've heard the same thing for the US - more clinicians have heard of McGill than any other school.

 

Not like it really matters. At least here in Switzerland, doctors realize that the reason they haven't heard of U of T or Western or Queen's is because THEY DON'T LIVE IN CANADA. Much the same as I have no sense of the quality of the various Swiss medical schools. As for the US, I'd never heard of the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis until they sent me some recruitment material, but does that mean it's a bad school? I realized it must be a pretty good school as it's usually top 10 on any ranking scale I've seen, and has among the highest MCAT and GPA acceptance averages for American Schools.

 

At least here in Switzerland, they seem to be more interested in what COUNTRY you did your medical training in as opposed to what school. There's too many freakin schools out there to tell the difference between them. So yeah, they might have heard of McGill but when I say I'm at a Canadian school, they're pretty much generally just impressed with that. If anyones uncertain, I just go into a couple of details about the program, or try to refer to the Gourman ranking (which noone has heard of, BTW.)

 

I would hope the same goes for American residency program directors and Hospital administrators, though admittedly with the wide disparity in quality of education in the US I'm admittedly not as confident. Certainly though, Canadian doctors have NO problem as a whole finding jobs in the US. . . much to the dismay of their overworked colleagues and the Canadian public. Anyways, if a residency program director is someone obsessed with your school ranking and schools he's "heard of," there's a good chance he knows little about the Canadian schools as a whole and would choose some from the University of Texas (which I think is an upper-middle tier school, but I'm Canadian so don't really care) instead of even the U of T grad.

[Guest MD2006]

Hey guys, just to pop in on the discussion, I've been working with MD's in various medical schools here in Boston for the past two years, as far as clinicians go, the only school that they have heard of from Canada is McGill. Everytime I tell someone that I'm going to medical school in Canada, their reply is "Oh you're going to McGill". Not to say that this is true of everyone but this has been my personal experience. On the flip side, those that I know on the academic side of medicine (PhD, MD/PhD's) have knowledge of other schools other than McGill, such as UBC, U of A, U of T which publish a lot of academic science.

 

I think that what UWOMED2005 said is true, the only reason they haven't heard of other schools is because they don't live in Canada. Just like we don't live in the US, I personally hadn't heard of the Univeristy of Washington in St. Louis (which is ranked first in primary care over Harvard, Stanford etc.) until I moved here. I think it pretty much depends on the "community" in which you're involved.

[Guest JSS02]

Hey Mr. Rader (making up for Beaver's forgetting to call you that ), I agreed to become a UWO moderator. I should be getting access to the mysterious "Moderator's Corner" sometime this week, and find out what you guys are saying about the rest of us.

 

BTW, I've also heard a few times that McGill is the only Canadian school where you have a similar chance to get a good American residency as if you had gone to a U.S. school. Is it because McGill is the only school here that's as good as an American school? Of course not. One reason for this is because McGill takes a (relatively) large number of Americans every year. Clinicians don't know much about the other schools here. Those involved in medical research probably do know about U of T, and maybe UBC/UA too.

 

WashU in St. Louis is supposed to be a big name for research. But I guess most clinicians and the general public both in Canada and the States don't know much about it. They'd be surprised that it's ranked in the top 5 med schools. Of course, some of these people would also think that Princeton has one of the top 3 medical schools in the country.

 

And Beaver, sorry to hear about UBC. What did they expect you to do, apologize for not being Mario Lemieux or Paul Kariya? Sheesh.

[Guest Beaver]

Sorry Mr. Rader,

 

I was posting in response to D whom I just address as D

 

I hope all is well in your world!!!! As I see by the board, you've been up to some pretty excellent things!

 

Mr. Rader, I'm in total agreement with your post, and UBC is a very excellent school both research and otherwise as are all the Canadian schools. I just felt like a little sweet revenge on a UBC faculty member who made my Phd from Toronto seem equivelent to a degree I ordered through the mail or the internet for $500.

 

Anyways, about where I've been, I was headed to Ottawa for some camping etc, but ended up going to (ironically) BC to Lions Bay for some equally excellent sailing/fishing/camping. With the super saver seat sales these days, it was only a few bucks more than Ottawa!

 

Take care Mr. Rader, I'll be back posting now that I'm out of the wildnerness. It was great to hear about all of the facinating details (on another post) regarding your trials and tribulations in Europe

 

the beav

[Guest UWOMED2005]

No worries. . . just almost didn't sound like you. You should really think about registering the name "Beaver." Hope you enjoyed Ottawa!

 

Later,

 

"Mr." Rader

[Guest onus]

i did my undergrad in the states and all my friends from across the US never heard of UT. the only school they kenw of was McGill. The reasons why they have heard about McGill is that, in addition to the American medical students, a large population of Americans go there for their undergraduate education... without being rude, most of them go because they could not get into better schools in the US. So you have quite a large population of McGillers in the states regardless... particularly in new england and the rest of north eastern us...

onus