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"Family Medicine in Decline"


Guest macdaddyeh

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Guest macdaddyeh

Just watched the news at noon and CARMS stats are out. There was a noon time exposee on family medicine which noted how this year was a Canada wide record low for residency applicants to Family medicine (24%) down from 30% three years ago....slowly slipping...

 

Reasons cited:

1) unglamorous

2) not lucrative ($$$ I imagine)

3) not important

 

Have people failed to forget that family physicians (GP's) are the gateway to the medical system? Yes they are overworked, but who isn't these days?

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Edited to change the title a bit. -Ian

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Guest shutterbug

I agree that family medicine is (should be) the cornerstone of our healthcare system. Given that the majority of diseases facing Canadians are chronic in nature (cardiovascular diseases, cancer, diaebetes, etc) you need a system to manage these individuals on an ongoing basis. More importantly, you are in a position to affect change in the lifestyle characteristics which lead to many of these diseases.

 

BTW do you know what the trend is in other not-as-lucrative fields? If they don't follow the same trend then it says something about the other reasons cited for the decline in family apps.

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Guest Ian Wong

Here's an article in today's Globe and Mail commenting on the above position of Family Medicine. The news is not good AT ALL, and the trouble is that the trend away from FM as a career choice for medical students is continuing. It's also a vicious cycle, because as med students gain exposure to over-worked and unhappy family doctors, they are less likely to want to place themselves in that position by choosing Family Medicine, and this perpetuates the ever-increasing workload and lack of recruitment of this career path.

 

Of the students who do enter Family Medicine, more and more of them are shying away from establishing a full practice with office staff and a fixed pool of patients. More and more are doing part-time work as locums, or taking shifts in walk-in clinics, or using the Family Medicine degree as an avenue towards the 3-year Emergency Medicine residency.

 

Oh yeah, and I moved this thread out of the General Premed forum into the Med Student's forum... :)

 

Ian

 

 

www.globeandmail.com/serv...y/National

 

Family doctors in decline

 

By ANDRÉ PICARD

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail Wednesday, Mar. 5, 2003

 

If you think finding a family doctor is difficult today, just wait a few years: Family medicine has become so unpopular that almost one-third of residency positions for future general practitioners are unfilled.

 

New data show that only 24 per cent of medical students chose family medicine for their residency training this year. And many university hospitals failed to fill even half the spots that were allocated to the training of general practitioners, according to numbers published Tuesday in e-CMAJ, the online news service of the Canadian Medical Association.

 

"There appears to have been a complete disengagement from family medicine," said Sandra Banner, executive director of the Canadian Resident Matching Service.

 

Calvin Gutkin, CEO of The College of Family Physicians of Canada, said the data are disturbing and mean big trouble for patients in years to come.

 

"The future of family doctors being available in this country is in jeopardy," he said.

 

Students' disinterest stems from poor working conditions and the "perception that it's become too hard to become a family doc" because the hours are too long and the prestige too low, he said. There's a feeling that GPs are second-class physicians, compared with specialists.

 

Last year, a poll released by the college suggested that 4.5 million Canadians — about 15 per cent of the population — do not have family doctors.

 

In his report, Roy Romanow, chairman of the Commission on the Future of Health Care in Canada, called the situation "absolutely untenable" and said governments must act swiftly to reform primary care. He said timely access to family doctors is a key to sustaining medicare.

 

Medical training takes place in three phases: academic learning, a period of internships in which students train in a number of areas and residency, where students train on the job in a chosen specialty.

 

This year, there are 484 residency-training positions in family medicine, and 139 are unfilled. At the same time, 115 students are "unmatched," meaning they did not get residencies in their chosen fields.

 

Ms. Banner said the unmatched are unlikely to turn to family medicine but likely will seek specialty training in the United States.

 

Danielle Martin, president of the Canadian Federation of Medical Students, told e-CMAJ that the declining interest in family medicine is due principally to the view that it is a second-class career choice.

 

"It all comes back to the perception that this is not a sexy field," she said.

 

Ms. Martin said that lifestyle considerations are also important: Increasingly, GPs cannot necessarily practice where they choose and, because of shortages, often have to work long hours. Specialists, on the other hand, usually can work regular office hours and earn much more money and more respect.

 

However, Ms. Martin, a fourth-year student at the University of Western Ontario, is bucking the trend and will do her residence in family medicine, saying it is a challenging and rewarding field. But she believes that changes have to be made to make family medicine more attractive.

 

"We have to make it affordable for people to make socially responsible choices, and yes, I consider choosing family medicine is socially responsible because our system depends on it," Ms. Martin said.

 

About half of Canadian physicians are specialists, while the balance are general practitioners and family physicians. However, almost two-thirds of requests for residency training are for specialties.

 

According to Statistics Canada, physicians in this country earn an average of $105,200 a year. Specialists earn, on average, 18-per-cent more than generalists — $116,500 versus $98,700. But the top 5 per cent of wage earners, those who bring in $250,000 or more, are almost all specialists in areas such as dermatology and ophthalmology.

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Guest Ian Wong

Here's the CMAJ article referenced in the above Globe and Mail discussion. They comment that two other specialties (Anesthesia and Obs/GYN) have rebounded in popularity over the past several years. Anesthesia, in particular, has become a "hot" specialty over my med school time in the last 3-4 years. Unfortunately, a lot of that is because of its perception as a "lifestyle" specialty. Ob/GYN is one to watch because I think this is the first year where the competitiveness went up substantially, so it will be interesting to see if this trend continues in subsequent years.

 

Ian

 

 

www.cma.ca/cmaj/cmaj_toda.../03_04.htm

 

Family medicine attracts smallest-ever share of residency applicants

Date: March 4, 2003 Time:9:27 am

 

Three years ago, when the proportion of medical students making family medicine their first residency choice dropped below 30% for the first time, program directors called it "a blip."

 

This year they will have to think up a new word, because the proportion has dropped to 24%.

 

After the first round of the 2003 residency match was completed on Feb. 27, 139 of 484 training positions in family medicine — 29% — remained unfilled, with one-third of the 36 programs filling 50% or less of their spots. "Family medicine has seen a major drop in popularity," says Sandra Banner, executive director of the Canadian Resident Matching Service (CaRMS).

 

Data from the 2003 match tell a depressing tale. For instance, the number of unmatched students — 115 — was 3 times higher than last year, but almost all of them are seeking specialty training. And Banner says few of the unmatched students will seek a family medicine slot in the match's second iteration, since most do not consider it a career option. Many will likely seek specialty training in the US.

 

As well, even though 114 more students registered with CaRMS for this year's first iteration, the number matched to family medicine actually declined by 35, to 296 students. "There appears to have been a complete disengagement from family medicine," says Banner.

 

But not everyone has been disengaged. Danielle Martin, a fourth-year student at the University of Western Ontario and president of the Canadian Federation of Medical Students, matched with the family medicine program at the University of Toronto. "I never wanted anything but family medicine," she says.

 

Martin says there are many reasons for students' declining interest in family medicine, but the perception that it is less prestigious than other specialties has become a major factor. "It all comes back to the perception that this is not a sexy field," she says. "Most of my classmates who did rural medicine electives really enjoyed them, but then they went ahead and chose specialties."

Martin is also concerned about the denigrating comments she heard about family medicine at medical school. "During my clerkship year, one of my preceptors said I was way too smart to be a family doctor. And you'd hear things like 'the family doctor screwed up, and then the patient was taken to a real doctor.' " She thinks student debt is also entering the equation when career choices are being made, with high debt loads encouraging students to seek out higher-paying specialties. As well, some are opting for "lifestyle" specialties that offer more regular practice hours than family medicine.

 

Martin says the combination of lower incomes for FPs and the message that family medicine is the least prestigious medical career is a recipe for disaster. "We have to make it affordable for people to make socially responsible choices and, yes, I consider choosing family medicine is socially responsible, because our system depends on it."

 

Dr. Cal Gutkin, CEO at the College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC), says the college has been developing a response since the problem first appeared about 3 years ago. Attempts so far have included meetings with medical students and a program to bring students to the CFPC's annual meeting. Meetings have also been held with deans of medicine, and in February the college met with government leaders to make them aware of the problem. "We have to act immediately," Gutkin says. "If we accept 24%, then we're accepting that the whole system has to change."

 

Dr. Claude Renaud, former director of professional affairs at the CFPC, thinks family medicine "is under the gun on all sorts of levels" because of primary care reform. "Insecurity has been building for 5 or 6 years because of talk about 24/7 coverage and increased roles for nurse practitioners and pharmacists, and I think students have started to view family medicine as less of an important role," says Renaud, now chief medical officer at the CMA. He thinks the future of generalists is being threatened by "the glamour of the subspecialties," and this holds serious implications for a medicare system that relies on a 40-60 split between primary care physicians and specialists. "If we were to lose the balance we have, the system won't function," he says. "We need the gatekeepers."

 

Although most of the 139 vacant family medicine positions will be filled in the second round of the match, which is open to international medical graduates, Renaud says this year's bleak first-round results shouldn't be ignored. "They show that family medicine is no longer being viewed as an ideal as it used to be," he said.

 

However, the family medicine brain trust can take heart because 2 specialties appear to have overcome rising unpopularity in recent years. This year all 66 positions in anesthesia were filled in the first round of the match, but as recently as 6 years ago, 20% were being left unfilled. And obstetrics/gynecology filled 48 of 49 positions, a distinct improvement over 1999, when 12 of 49 slots were unfilled after the first round. Banner said these results "mark a real turnaround," which may be attributable to the completion of hospital restructuring in most parts of the country.

 

"We've done very aggressive promotion this year," added Andrée Poirier, director of communications with the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada. "Our members were present during career nights, and we sent letters to second- and third-year students. I think these proactive measures have helped."

 

— Patrick Sullivan, eCMAJ

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Guest Ian Wong

CBC Radio ran a program yesterday regarding the plight of Family Medicine. They interviewed 2 graduating med students (one from U of Manitoba, and the other from UWO), as well as Cal Gutkin, the CEO of the College of Family Physicians of Canada . You can download a RealMedia copy of the radio interviews from the links below; the total length of the program is about 20 minutes.

 

Ian

 

 

Here's more information on it:

 

cbc.ca/thecurrent/2003/200303/20030304.html

 

Whole Show Blow-by-Blow

 

The Current for Show March 4, 2003

 

Family Doctor Shortage--medical student panel

 

A falling percentage of graduating medical students across Canada are choosing family medicine as their specialty. This could make the doctor shortage problem worse.

 

Family Doctor Shortage---Doctor

 

Dr. Cal Gutkin says the med students could have a serious impact on the availability of family doctors because it underlines that med schools and governments are not doing enough.

 

Family Doctor Shortage--Fact Board

 

The number of Canadian doctors peaked 10 years ago. It's declined by 5% since according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information. Over the past decade, British Columbia has had the highest ratio of doctors per capita. To maintain that standard BC needs an 300 new physicians every year. Its medical schools can't fill that quota. Right now fewer than 150 graduate every year. There are fewer spots for medical students at schools across the country.Those placements were cut by ten percent between 1993 and 1997 And once they graduate there's no guarantee a doctor will stay and practice in this country. 585 doctors left Canada in 1999, only 34 returned. In the same year a report commissioned by the Ontario government said the province was short approximately one thousand doctors ... a shortage that is projected to increase to almost three and a half thousand by 2010.

 

Listen to The Current: Part 1

Unfortunately, you need Real player to hear the above. (Download it from the right-hand side of your screen).

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Guest Ian Wong

Here's another article out of the Vancouver Sun, again stating some of the dismal statistics regarding entering Family Medicine, and possible reasons for this.

 

Ian

 

 

www.canada.com/news/story...ADFE4CF7A}

 

Shortage of family doctors may worsen as med students flee the field

 

HELEN BRANSWELL

Tuesday, March 04, 2003

 

TORONTO (CP) - Think it's hard to find a family doctor now? The problem may only get worse.

 

The organization that matches would-be doctors to residency positions says the percentage of students who listed family medicine as their first choice in this year's process is the lowest they've ever seen.

 

Only 24 per cent of students opted for family medicine, which makes up roughly 40 per cent of the 1,317 training spots in the country's 36 English-language medical schools for next fall, said Sandra Banner, executive director of the Canadian Resident Matching Service.

 

"Over a 10-year span it's been slowly declining. I think the thing about this year is that it was a significant drop," Banner said from Ottawa.

 

Three years ago, when the figure dropped below 30 per cent for the first time, alarm bells rang throughout the system. But the dip was dismissed as a blip. Since then, the numbers have continued to decline.

 

The first round of the matching process for next fall was completed on Feb. 27. The second round, which will place 116 unmatched applicants and some other students who qualify, is still to come.

 

Some of the remaining students will go into family medicine. But that doesn't change the fact that as a field, the popularity of family medicine is on the wane, Banner said.

 

"There's the issue. Not whether or not we will fill the positions anyway, but rather that the students do not see family medicine as a career."

 

The president of the Canadian Federation of Medical Students finds this evidence worrisome.

 

Danielle Martin is a fourth-year medical student at the University of Western Ontario. She graduates this spring and has secured a residency in family medicine at the University of Toronto for the fall. The idea of being a family doctor is what drew her to medicine in the first place, Martin said.

 

But she believes family medicine gets short shrift in medical schools, where specialties like surgery or emergency medicine are considered more glamorous, more lucrative, more important.

Lectures on most subjects are taught by specialists, a situation that could leave students with the impression that family doctors are little more than gatekeepers between patients and specialists, she said.

 

As well, some of those lecturers display disdain towards family medicine, Martin said.

 

"I got told more than once by specialists: 'You're too smart to be a family doctor.' That's a pretty scary attitude.

 

"If you hear that and you're at all wavering in your decision as to which way to go and the subliminal and sometimes overt messages that you're getting from people is that the smart ones go into specialties and family medicine is for people who can't hack it in the specialties, then that is going to influence people's decisions."

 

Financial considerations increasingly are playing a role, Martin added. Medical students rack up a staggering amount of debt during their long years of schooling and paying that down weighs on their minds.

 

"I don't think there's an epidemic of that yet but I think a lot of people are heading in that direction," she admitted.

 

"I don't think it's because they're selfish or bad doctors, I think it's because when you're facing a $100,000 debt, a lot of things go into your career decisions and finances have to be one of them."

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Guest Ian Wong

Yet another article, this time by the National Post. It's great to see all the attention that this has generated in today's newspapers. I can only hope that this sort of publicity doesn't immediately fade back into obscurity, and that someone starts taking a long, hard look at how to rectify and improve this situation.

 

Ian

 

 

www.nationalpost.ca/home/...D67F50C78}

 

Lure of lucrative specialties endangering family medicine

 

Heather Sokoloff

Wednesday, March 05, 2003

 

Fewer Canadian medical students than ever want to work as family doctors, opting instead for glamorous and lucrative careers as cardiac surgeons or ophthalmologists.

 

Family medicine remains the largest medical speciality, but the numbers are dropping significantly, making Canada's family-doctor crisis even worse.

 

Only 24% of Canadian medical students are seeking training as family doctors or general practitioners this year, down from 30% last year and 40% a decade ago.

 

Dr. Calvin Gutkin, CEO of the College of Family Physicians of Canada, says students shun the profession after learning family doctors are paid the lowest salaries in medicine but work gruelling schedules, averaging 72 hours a week.

 

''Our governments and our medical schools have not stressed the value of family medicine in our Canadian health care system,'' said Dr. Gutkin, a family doctor since 1973.

 

"We need family doctors."

 

Almost 30% of the training positions in family medicine are currently unfilled, according to the Canadian Resident Matching Service, the organization that matches students from Canada's 36 English-language medical schools with 1,317 residency positions across the country.

 

Ontario, for example, needs 500 family doctors right now. But those vacancies will be insignificant compared to what will happen if students keep rejecting family medicine, warned Dr. Douglas Mark, the president of the Coalition of Family Physicians and deputy chief of family medicine at Toronto's Scarborough Hospital.

 

"It will be harder and harder to get a family doctor. People will be going from walk-in clinic to walk-in clinic," he predicted.

 

Dr. Gutkin says even though most of the family medicine training spots will eventually be filled, the drop in interest signals a looming crisis as more and more Canadians will be forced to go directly to the emergency room when they have an injury or illness and wait hours to see a doctor they have never met before.

 

Family doctors feel abused by a health care system that is increasingly demanding they care for growing numbers of patients in an ageing population as well as take responsibly for patients who are sent home instead of being cared for in a long-term facility, he added.

 

Danielle Martin, a third-year medical student at the University of Western Ontario who will enter a family residence training program at the University of Toronto next year, said the profession is given little respect by other physician specialists.

 

The specialists who teach her medical school classes said she was ''too smart to be a family doctor,'' an attitude she thinks causes medical students to believe family doctors end up working as generalists because they could not gain acceptance into training programs for other specialties.

 

''You'd hear things like, 'The family doctor screwed up, and then the patient was taken to a real doctor.' ''

 

Ms. Martin, president of the Canadian Federation of Medical Students, said medical students have little interaction with generalists, even though family doctors are the first to diagnose illness when they meet a patient.

 

''More than 90% of lower back pain is treated by the family doctor, yet when we are taught about lower back pain, we get taught by neurosurgeons.''

 

Another reason is that debt-strapped students are seeking lucrative specialties such as opthamology so they can quickly pay off their student loans, or specialities such as dermatology or plastic surgery that do not demand miserable hours.

 

Dr. Heather Tick, a family physician who has worked in Toronto for 20 years, says many of her colleagues are abandoning their practices to take private-sector jobs at nursing homes or with health insurance companies.

 

'All of my colleagues are burned out," she says. "I don't know one who isn't. Students look at us and say, 'Why bother?' ''

 

A poll for the College of Family Physicians of Canada last October found that 4.5 million Canadians over the age of 18 don't have a family physician.

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Guest Ian Wong

Here's one from the Ottawa Citizen, with some insightful comments not seen elsewhere, such as 80-90% of Family Medicine graduates not immediately starting a practice, but rather doing locums and walk-in clinic work (leading to a delay between when a Family Medicine resident graduates from residency, and when they assume full-time work in the community). This article is a little messed up in that whoever put it on-line accidentally duplicated parts of the article, but otherwise is a really good read.

 

Ian

 

 

www.canada.com/ottawa/ott...D8323B6E47

 

Students reject family medicine

Already needing 500 more GPs, Ontario sees shortage worsening

 

Joanne Laucius

The Ottawa Citizen

Wednesday, March 05, 2003

 

A record proportion of Canada's medical students are saying no to family medicine. And that means it will be harder than ever to find a family doctor.

 

Only 24 per cent of the students made family medicine their first residency choice this year -- a drop of more than five per cent from last year.

 

If the system is to remain in balance, about 50 per cent should choose family medicine in the first round of matches.

 

But this year almost a third of the training positions in family medicine -- 139 out of 484 -- remain unfilled after the first round. And the Canadian Resident Matching Services believes many of the 115 unmatched students will seek specialty training in the U.S. instead of choosing family medicine in Canada.

 

Ontario needs 500 family doctors right now.

 

But those vacancies will be insignificant compared to what will happen if students keep rejecting family medicine, warned Dr. Douglas Mark, the president of the Coalition of Family Physicians and deputy chief of family medicine at the Scarborough Hospital.

 

"It will be harder and harder to get a family doctor. People will be going from walk-in clinic to walk-in clinic," he predicted.

 

About 80 to 90 per cent of newly minted family doctors are filling in for other doctors or working in walk-in clinics, he said. That means that there will be only 20 or 30 new doctors starting family practices in Ontario each year.

 

Even the Canadian Medical Association Journal has taken note, publishing the figures on its Web site yesterday in advance of its next print edition.

 

The factors driving away students are many -- the overhead costs of running a family practice, lower pay than specialists, an increasing administrative load and sometimes the lack of prestige and recognition.

 

In recent years, student interest in family medicine has dropped to alarming levels. The figure dropped below 30 per cent for the first time in 1999. Since then, the figures have hovered around 30 per cent.

 

However, the 2003 figure is a "significant" drop from that level, said Sandy Banner, the executive director of the Canadian Resident Matching Service.

 

"Interest has been eroding," said Ms. Banner. "It's a complex problem. It won't solved easily."

 

Mona Shafey, a fourth-year medical student at the University of Ottawa, has been accepted for a residency in internal medicine, her first choice of speciality.

 

"If you're going to do the work, you might as well get paid," she said.

 

Ms. Shafey has had three placements in family medicine so far. She has noted that there is a lot of frustration among family doctors.

 

"Paperwork is horrendous," she said. "We see physicians sitting there for hours filling out forms. And they're not happy about it."

 

About a decade ago, close to 50 per cent of medical students were interested in family medicine, said Dr. Mark.

 

But high tuition levels and student debt averaging $100,000 is drawing students toward specialties. Family doctors are paid about 55 per cent of what specialists are paid, he said.

 

After overhead costs, the average income for a family doctor is $99,000 with no benefits and work weeks often in excess of 50 hours, he said. "We want to be fairly funded for the education we have."

 

The bodies that represent family physicians already know they have a big problem. A poll for the College of Family Physicians of Canada last October found that 4.5 million Canadians over the age of 18 don't have a family physician.

 

The college is already urging Canada's 16 medical faculties to include more family medicine in the curriculum.

 

But more needs to be done, said college CEO Dr. Cal Gutkin. "Medical schools have to give family practice the prestige, so medical students see it as equal to specialities."

 

He believes the college will also have to put out an appeal to the 115 students who don't have a residency match so far.

 

"They should seriously consider it as an opportunity," said Dr. Gutkin. "We need family doctors."

 

Danielle Martin will start a residency in family medicine at the University of Toronto in July. Despite a $100,000 debt, she's determined to be a family doctor.

 

"The relationship between patients and doctors is not replicated anywhere else in the medical system. It's based on trust," she said. "It's an honour."

 

But those vacancies will be insignificant compared to what will happen if students keep rejecting family medicine, warned Dr. Douglas Mark, the president of the Coalition of Family Physicians and deputy chief of family medicine at the Scarborough Hospital.

 

"It will be harder and harder to get a family doctor. People will be going from walk-in clinic to walk-in clinic," he predicted.

 

About 80 to 90 per cent of newly minted family doctors are filling in for other doctors or working in walk-in clinics, he said. That means that there will be only 20 or 30 new doctors starting family practices in Ontario each year.

 

Even the Canadian Medical Association Journal has taken note, publishing the figures on its Web site yesterday in advance of its next print edition.

 

The factors driving away students are many -- the overhead costs of running a family practice, lower pay than specialists, an increasing administrative load and sometimes the lack of prestige and recognition.

 

In recent years, student interest in family medicine has dropped to alarming levels. The figure dropped below 30 per cent for the first time in 1999. Since then, the figures have hovered around 30 per cent.

 

However, the 2003 figure is a "significant" drop from that level, said Sandy Banner, the executive director of the Canadian Resident Matching Service.

 

"Interest has been eroding," said Ms. Banner. "It's a complex problem. It won't be solved easily."

 

Mona Shafey, a fourth-year medical student at the University of Ottawa, has been accepted for a residency in internal medicine, her first choice of speciality.

 

"If you're going to do the work, you might as well get paid," she said.

 

Ms. Shafey has had three placements in family medicine so far. She has noted that there is a lot of frustration among family doctors.

 

"Paperwork is horrendous," she said. "We see physicians sitting there for hours filling out forms. And they're not happy about it."

 

About a decade ago, close to 50 per cent of medical students were interested in family medicine, said Dr. Mark.

 

But high tuition levels and student debt averaging $100,000 is drawing students toward specialties. Family doctors are paid about 55 per cent of what specialists are paid, he said.

 

After overhead costs, the average income for a family doctor is $99,000 with no benefits and work weeks often in excess of 50 hours, he said. "We want to be fairly funded for the education we have."

 

The bodies that represent family physicians already know they have a big problem. A poll for the College of Family Physicians of Canada last October found that 4.5 million Canadians over the age of 18 don't have a family physician.

 

The college is already urging Canada's 16 medical faculties to include more family medicine in the curriculum.

 

But more needs to be done, said college CEO Dr. Cal Gutkin. "Medical schools have to give family practice the prestige, so medical students see it as equal to specialities."

 

He believes the college will also have to put out an appeal to the 115 students who don't have a residency match so far.

 

"They should seriously consider it as an opportunity," said Dr. Gutkin. "We need family doctors."

 

Danielle Martin will start a residency in family medicine at the University of Toronto in July. Despite a $100,000 debt, she's determined to be a family doctor.

 

"The relationship between patients and doctors is not replicated anywhere else in the medical system. It's based on trust," she said. "It's an honour."

 

Barry Dworkin: How Ontario drove doctors away, page A12

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Guest Kirsteen

Hi guys,

 

Perhaps it's time for a redesign of the front lines of health care. Would it be feasible to encourage and provide more education for nurse practitioners to assume this role in the future? Food for thought.

 

Cheers,

Kirsteen

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Guest tantastic

Although it is most likely true that Family Physicians are the lowest paid, are specialists making that much more these days?

 

I read an article in the Toronto Star two Saturdays ago in the financial business section where in the column, they take real people each week and help them with there financial plans. The article I read was dealing with a 36 year old neurologist who earned $150,000 after overhead and expenses but before taxes. He was frustrated because he was finding it difficult to save very much due to his high mortgage (300,000), loans and lifestlye. He wanted a new sports car and a bigger house (600,000) for a child that was on the way, but the financial planner said no way because he still had 40,000 in school loans and his wife still had 35,000 in loans. The prime concern of the financial planner was that without a pension or any other means to support themselves when he retired, the main goal would be to save for the future and forgoe a Porsche and the bigger house for at least 10-15 years. The planner went on to say it was sad to see so many doctors that didn't plan for the future properly, and it eventually made them have to work until their death or until illness stopped them from working.

 

Anyways I gave too much info about the article (interesting by the way) but the point is, is there really such a difference between 99,000 and 150,000 in the long run and once you factor in income taxes? I was also under the impression that specialists (outside some of the "slacker" specialties like Derm or Rads) have to work just as hard if not harder especially surgeons and ER docs. What are other people's thoughts? Did anyone catch that article? What did you think?

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Guest MayFlower1

tantastic, and others,

 

I found these articles really disheartening and quite sad. I want nothing more than to become a family doctor. While some of the specialties are interesting to me because of my past (e.g., Ophthalmology, Neurology) they wouldn't, I don't believe, bring me the same satisfaction. There are many aspects of family medicine which make it attractive to me...first, the long-term patient contact/continuity of care. As a specialist, you may see someone a few times related to a particular issue...if you're lucky. I would personally find that much less satisfying...I want to help people learn, stay healthy, help them heal when they're not...deal with the psychosocial issues...the whole ball o' wax. The second aspect of Family Medicine which excites me is the diversity of problems one faces...I think I would find it much less satisfying to be narrowed too much... delivering babies all day... reconstructive knee/hip surgeries...etc. Family Medicine really forces you to be broad and draw upon all you've learned in medical school/residency, life and from other patients.

 

I don't personally buy the pay thing. The numbers they are quoting for FM (and for specialties for that matter) seem quite conservative based on people I know. There are a lot of docs out there that aren't making that much money, especially family docs, but in my opinion much of that could be rectified with some good practice managment habits. My wife makes a more than decent living at FM as you may have read in other threads.

 

With respect to the amount of "work" or administration versus medicine...I think that also may be a matter of organization and proper staffing. The docs in my wife's clinic do medicine...the administratrion is the primary responsiblity of the administration and nursing staff. The office also has an individual who transcribes all of the dictations the docs make...rather than writing for hours...they dictate and our medical transcriptionist does the rest. Also, the forms, etc. they talk about...hey, I redesigned all of the forms the office uses to minimize writing...we integrated similar forms...placed check boxes wherever possible...etc., etc., ...a school note takes about 30 seconds to complete...I think you get the idea. The administrative side of any business can be a nightmare if not taken care of properly.

 

I also thing that people may not be fully aware of the challenges specialists face...sure, they're not the same as FM...but they've got their skeletons as well... (pun intended). In my opinion, there is no area of medicine that is simple...just different.

 

In a nutshell...I'm sticking with Family Medicine (should I ever get accepted, that is)...it's my dream job...and I don't really care if people regard it as "glamorous" or not...it's exciting and enjoyable for ME. I'll also likely do an extra year of Emergency so I can be part of the solution for relieving some of the strain experienced by the hospitals...

 

I'm interested to hear about other people's points of view.

 

Peter

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Guest macdaddyeh

I concur with Peter's view (Mayflower) entirely. It is the versatility and broadness as well as the continuity of care that attracts me most to being a GP. I too am not interested in delivering babies all day or replacing knees and hips all day; too narrowly focused and I believe one can slowly lose one's knowledge base if one does not maintain wide exposure!

 

Nonetheless, doctors do have a tough and intellectually challenging job despite their "specialization." I also don't necessarily buy the low pay issue; I've seen the pay stats and some GP's are very handsomely paid--particularly those working FFS with a high client load or those working salary in remote areas who work there primarily for the rural pay structure incentives

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Guest Carolyn

I think you bring up very good points. I was actually one of the few people that almost got lured into family medicine at the end of medical school as opposed to the mass crowd that got lured away from Family medicine at the beginning of medical school.

 

I had the opportunity to finally work in a Family Medicine environment where a) the Doc was HAPPY and passionate about her job and B) they had the administrative support to keep from dragging the docs down... (no dictations so there was still lots of paperwork)... I was in an office involved in the "Family Care Reform" -- it worked extremely well from my perspective but I gather not all family physicians are overly keen on it in Ontario.

 

I realized that I probably could be happy in family medicine. After some really frustrating experiences in family medicine before then, I had all but cut it out as an option....

 

So I applied to Family medicine but knew that my passion truly did lie in emergency medicine and academic emergency medicine at that. While I could have done family medicine and then applied to do a 3rd year of emerg, it still didn't fulfill my passion for academic emergency medicine. I was fortunate to match to my first choice but I am dismayed and concerned with the continued decline of family medicine. I also had this niggling concern about applying for family medicine to emerg but not having a plan to really practice family medicine.

 

I wish students were exposed more often to the type of doc I worked with and likely the types of docs that Peter's wife is and works with. We underestimate the importance of having mentors and being able to visualize what our lives could look like in the future. Given the number of unhappy family docs out there, we are more and more likely to see more declines as students get swayed away from it.

 

There has been some great media attention on this and I can only hope that we will see changes in the future to family medicine which will ensure a happier more respected profession.

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Guest shutterbug

If they include resident physicians then the average for FPs are going to be way down given (1) the vast number of FM residents and (2) that most residents make the same amount of dough.

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Guest strider2004

I too considered FM for a while but feel that although I'd enjoy the continuity of care, I don't think it's feasible to adequately address a patient's problems in the time that you have.

Let's take something like asthma: the guidelines change so frequently that it's actually quite difficult to establish adequate control for all the patients. The drugs keep changing and I don't know how I as a family doc could keep up with all of the new guidelines for all of my patients, especially with so much variety between them.

 

I think it's really difficult as a FP to be comprehensive in regards to medical problems and still earn a decent wage. I think it's easier as a specialist to see a patient, find the problem, fix the problem in whatever time is necessary, and still be able to go home with a decent income.

 

Continuity of care is also an interesting issue. I thought about family medicine because my greatest attribute probably isn't my knowledge, but the enjoyment I get from talking to the patients. It's really nice to know what's going on in a person(nay, family)'s life. But FM isn't the only place where you'd get that. If you're a pediatrician, you'd talking about the first 18 years of a person's life. If you do primary care internal medicine, you're talking about adulthood until death.

 

Sometimes it's nice to think "The buck stops here. I'm the expert opinion and I'm gonna find out what's going on."

 

As for salaries, I think the ones quoted from stats Canada are take-home. $98k for FP, $116k for specialists. Resident salaries shoudn't be included.

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I guess I have never considered working as a FP. It is not that it lacks glamour but I would love to be involved in academics, teaching, working in a teaching hospital associated with a medical facutly and for some reason I don't think that family docs get to that much of that. But I am only in my first year and I could change my mind.

 

And Peter, I though you wanted to be an opthalmologist?

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Guest MayFlower1

Strider,

 

You bring up some very interesting points. First off, I think you're right about the salaries...they must be after tax...although, I would say the specialists we know are making take-home salaries of significantly higher than $116 (one of our friends makes about 140 after tax and another about 250 after tax...sub-specialist...neonatologist.)

 

I will take a somewhat different tack on a few of your ideas, however:

 

I too considered FM for a while but feel that although I'd enjoy the continuity of care, I don't think it's feasible to adequately address a patient's problems in the time that you have.

 

My wife asks her patients to help with the quality of care they receive. She insists that they don't wait for multiple problems before they call to book an appointment...one problem per visit, except in extenuating circumstances. Subsequent problems, unless emergent in nature are seen within a week...emergent problems are seen immediately...we leave several spots open each day for "same day appointments"...by definition, the continuity allows you to address the problems better...

 

Let's take something like asthma: the guidelines change so frequently that it's actually quite difficult to establish adequate control for all the patients. The drugs keep changing and I don't know how I as a family doc could keep up with all of the new guidelines for all of my patients, especially with so much variety between them.

 

My wie is constantly going to conferences...has established a "PBL" group with several of her friends which meets twice a month...is constantly reading new guidelines, etc. There's no doubt that it's a lot of work to keep current given the huge volume of new stuff...but, again, the continuous learning is one of the things that really attracts me to FM.

 

I think it's really difficult as a FP to be comprehensive in regards to medical problems and still earn a decent wage. I think it's easier as a specialist to see a patient, find the problem, fix the problem in whatever time is necessary, and still be able to go home with a decent income.

 

I apologize, however, I strongly disagree with you on this point. I think there are many people who struggle to make a decent wage at FM...but that's due (often) to lack of attention and familiarity with good practice management. If you aren't making 100K take-home after overhead, taxes then there's something you can do to improve...

 

Continuity of care is also an interesting issue. I thought about family medicine because my greatest attribute probably isn't my knowledge, but the enjoyment I get from talking to the patients. It's really nice to know what's going on in a person(nay, family)'s life. But FM isn't the only place where you'd get that. If you're a pediatrician, you'd talking about the first 18 years of a person's life. If you do primary care internal medicine, you're talking about adulthood until death.

 

Thanks so much for pointing this out...I never really thought about continuity from this perspective...I guess it's ignorance with respect to what many of the specialties and sub-specialties really do.

 

 

Sometimes it's nice to think "The buck stops here. I'm the expert opinion and I'm gonna find out what's going on."

 

This I would like to wholeheartedly agree with...although I can't ;) As a FM, it would bring me huge satisfaction to know that I referred a patient to a specialist and it was the right thing to do...I have no ego when it comes to multi-disciplinary work/care...that's the value of it...

 

Anyway, thanks for the perspective...it's great to see diversity.

 

Peter

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Guest strider2004

Peter,

 

I hope we have more people like you going into medicine.

 

I think there are many people who struggle to make a decent wage at FM...but that's due (often) to lack of attention and familiarity with good practice management.
one problem per visit, except in extenuating circumstances.

 

This is the point with which I have a problem in family medicine. Because of fee-for-service, family physicians have to see a person multiple times for multiple problems. This makes absolutely no sense to me - it is such an inefficient way to handle things. In terms of total time spent, there may be no difference between addressing one problem at a time and handling all the problems at once. In fact, it is more efficient for the patient to handle everything at once. However, a family physician can't do that in our current system. Why are they paid per visit? Everyone else in the world is paid by the hour. Ophthalmologists were able to take advantage of this with increasing technology so suddenly 1hour surgeries billing $800 only took 15 minutes for the same amount of money. Meanwhile, FPs were left in the dark. Only the recent fee schedule readjustments made things a bit better.

 

It also might make some problems more complicated. I once saw a person in an internal medicine clinic. He had multiple pains over his body - chest pain, joint pains, recent weight gain, balance problems, lightheadedness, etc. These symptoms can all be explained by hypothyroidism, but if you address each problem one by one, you might miss the big picture.

 

Overall, I think the system has to change. Fee-for-service is making work difficult but any other funding plan would only lengthen waiting lists. Some hospitals already have alternate funding plans (Kingston General, Calgary is thinking about it) but common sense dictates that it would only make people work less. Get paid the same no matter how much work you do? Who wouldn't work less?

 

I do like the Family Health Network but not many family docs like it apparently. Peter, has your wife spoken to the OMA about it?

 

Alex

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Guest MayFlower1

Alex,

 

You are SOOOO right on with your observations...my comments were more with respect to "how to optimize given current billing constraints". There is no doubt about it...if a patient has an emergent problem...they have to be seen...billable or not...HOWEVER, given the constraints of current billing legistlation...and given that docs should be compensated for their huge investment in time/money, etc...patients must be "shaped" to ensure they make the best use of the docs time...and that they take the best care of themselves that they possibly can...that means not waiting to see your doc once several big problems arise...it means being proactive and ensuring things are taken care of when they arise. Patient education is also key to this whole equation...what is emergent? what isn't? when should you call and wake us up at 2:00am on a sunday morning? why have you waited three months to call us on a sunday morning when you have chest pain? Why are you calling us at 2:00AM on a sunday morning because you need a new prescription? didn't you realize you were running out?

 

The point of this is...that medicine is a 2-way street...docs have to be there for their patients...but patients also have to be there for themselves...

 

This is the point with which I have a problem in family medicine. Because of fee-for-service, family physicians have to see a person multiple times for multiple problems. This makes absolutely no sense to me - it is such an inefficient way to handle things. In terms of total time spent, there may be no difference between addressing one problem at a time and handling all the problems at once. In fact, it is more efficient for the patient to handle everything at once. However, a family physician can't do that in our current system. Why are they paid per visit? Everyone else in the world is paid by the hour.

 

Here! Here! I couldn't have said it better myself...it would likely also save the government some money as well...docs should be paid for the time they spend with patients. It's very sad, mostly for the patient, that the current system doesn't compensate docs for dealing with multiple problems during one visit. We eat about 5% of potential revenue on this one...when a patient comes in with an emergent problem they are seen whether or not we can collect. What's really sad is that there aren't very many other professions which will work for "free" like this...and there's no good reason why docs should have to either... I don't believe the CHA says that docs shouldn't be paid for service anywhere... why don't they reconsider how billing works? Perhaps Romanow will have some impact on this...although, I didn't read anything about this particular possibility (i.e., pay docs for time rather than procedure/visit).

 

It also might make some problems more complicated. I once saw a person in an internal medicine clinic. He had multiple pains over his body - chest pain, joint pains, recent weight gain, balance problems, lightheadedness, etc. These symptoms can all be explained by hypothyroidism, but if you address each problem one by one, you might miss the big picture.

 

No doubt about it...I wonder whether the doc checked to see whether the patient's finger was broken? ;) (every time they used their index finger to point to a problem they experienced pain...it was actually the finger that was broken...but it took 12 visits to narrow it down to that!)

 

I do like the Family Health Network but not many family docs like it apparently. Peter, has your wife spoken to the OMA about it?

 

Alex, I believe the Family Health Network is not well received by docs...I must admit I'm not sure why...I think it has something to do with the fact that they would literally be "interruptable" 24 hours a day, depending on how the system is set up. Also, I believe the idea is that you would get a certain amount of money for each patient, regardless of how much care was involved...and the biggest problem (I believe) is that I think patients are assigned to networks...causes the docs to lose control and potentially end up with a bunch of butt heads rather than a more normal distribution...but I'm kinda in the dark with this one.

 

Take care,

 

and thanks for the great discussion!

 

Peter

Alex

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Guest strider2004
No doubt about it...I wonder whether the doc checked to see whether the patient's finger was broken? (every time they used their index finger to point to a problem they experienced pain...it was actually the finger that was broken...but it took 12 visits to narrow it down to that!)

 

I think I heard that joke before. Is this a true story?

 

I must admit I'm not sure why...I think it has something to do with the fact that they would literally be "interruptable" 24 hours a day, depending on how the system is set up.

Ruth Wilson, creator of FHNs, talked to us one night at Queen's(she's on faculty). The math seemed to work out by still the response rate was only like 4%. Originally they were going to penalize you every time your patient went to another doc but everyone was against that. The good thing about the plan was that they planned to make better use of nurse practitioners. It makes sense.

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Guest MayFlower1

strider,

 

Yes...that was a joke :lol

 

I really love the idea of the nurse practitioner taking more responsibility. In fact, I really like the idea of having a network of docs who all work together and communicate closely with one another with respect to various patient's needs...what I am less keen on is some of the details which have caused only 4% of docs to sign up for this type of medicine.

 

The idea that if a patient seeks another doc you get penalized is ludicrous...patients do this all the time (although, not in my wife's practice ;) )...if you can't see them immediately they often go to a walk-in. This completely messes up the continuity of care thing. Perhaps they should penalize PATIENTS if they break stride like this? ;)

 

Peter

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Guest Biochem10

I have to admit I'm guilty of going to see numerous family doctors!! A couple of reasons, first, being in school in Montreal means that I'm away from my family doctor, so I go see a doctor at the University Health services. Second, even when I'm at home my family doc is usually very busy, so if it's something that needs attention immediately I usually pop over to the walk in clinic that is conveniently located across the street from my house. Anyway, I know this practice is not a good one, as my test results and medical history are scattered over 3 places. Another problem were my frequent moves, I just haven't been in one place long enough to develop a consistent relationship with a family doctor. Anyway, after reading some posts on this board I realize what a frustration this must be for these doctors, so I resolve that after I leave Montreal I will permanently station myself and get a family doctor that I can have for years to come. I think that part of the problem is location, most people chose a family doctor based on convenience, but then don't always feel a loyalty to visiting that doctor regularly.

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Guest shutterbug

I've lived in about 5 cities in the last four to five years. It's so much easier/practical to pop into a clinic than to go to another city to see your family doc. Maybe an electronic health record could solve some of the problems with your records being scattered everywhere.

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Guest MayFlower1

great point shutterbug...one centralized file would most certainly make it better...but then again, a walk-in clinic doesn't know your history...some of your personal psychological and physiological quirks, so to speak...they can't possibly know you at this level...this is where, I believe the walk-in clinic ultimately fails...but this is my opinion.

 

Peter

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