mac_attack Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Is anyone else bothered by the fact that for some schools, certain traits like Aboriginal decent or being a francophone give you a boost for getting into med school. For instance, look at Ottawa, the differences in cut-off are like 3.4 and 3.8!!!! I thought Canada was a land of equal opportunity for all. What about others, like immigrants who maybe moved here from an non-English speaking country, learned the language, excelled through school past many English speaking students, have to work 2 jobs to get through school, etc. If we're going to give special considerations to one group of people we should do it for everyone. I am appalled that medical schools decrease cut-offs for certain people based on race. Aboriginals in Canada do not have it as bad as people think. I worked in a community last summer in Manitoba and I'm telling you, they get a lot of special privileges, don't pay taxes, have the option of sending their kids to special schools for free, and many other things. The biggest problem facing the communities is basically laziness because they are handed everything and they expect others/the government to take care of everything for them. I think it's time to stop feeling sorry for them and allowing them to be stupider. Umm I know I will get a lot of stones thrown at me but if you could at least read my point before you reply that would be appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 I understand your frustration, but I really think you need to think before you speak. "Aboriginals are stupider or what" <--- that is a very racist comment, and just because you feel that other groups should be given an extra chance at getting into med school, it doesn't mean you need to lash out at a group. Honestly, I hate when I see posts like this. This is the system we live in, so just put up with it. Sitting here and *****ing about it isn't going to do anything. Honestly, have you haven't even applied to med school - stop wasting time thinking about things that are not going to change, and instead, think about your own application and how you can improve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
degoo_ Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Its such a complex issue. There are many (good) reasons for why it is set up like it is. As Law said, that's the way it is today, so you better get used to it. I don't think you should draw large conclusions based on your experience with one group in Manitoba. The biases exist everywhere. If they aren't racial, then they are regional. If not regional, then they are age-based. But rest assured, if you work hard enough, it won't matter where you are from, what your age or race are. I hope the title gets edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyMax Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Hey, Wow, this post is so incredibly narrow-minded that I'm not even going to bother to respond. Just be sure to voice these opinions at your medical school interviews (assuming that you get one)- I'm sure that they will score you tons of points with your interview committees! I sincerely hope that you never become a medical student with that attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
degoo_ Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Don't chastise him like how he chastises others. Surely he can question why the requirements are set up how they are. The manner in which he is doing it is the problem though. I think its because aboriginal people will more likely return to a rural community and provide essential primary care there. There has to be some incentive for them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyMax Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Hey, I think that as The Law stated earlier, the OP really needs to think before s/he speaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
degoo_ Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 definately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 mac_attack, you have made a number of points in your post, and before I address any of them, you may want to consider editing this post because its extremely offensive and bordering racist. You have the right to an opinion, but you also have the responsibility of presenting it in a way that doesn't do harm to others. You may want to revise the way in which you present your ideas. Also, that title, seriously, there are many other ways of getting readers attention. So, why are admission standards lower for aboriginals than for you are me? Simply stated, because they represent a huge part of society, but an extremely small sector of the medical and other professional fields. Those praciticing medicine should represent the population it serves so that everyone can feel comfortable engaging approaching and practioner and engaging in a relationship with them. Because of the historically poor treatment and racist attitudes that the Canadian government and peoples have dealt the aboriginals, this is a way to ensure that they have the chances the incentive, and the legitimate opportunities to be a part of the medical field. Canada is a land of equal opportunity, at least that's one of the values it tries to promote (hidden racism aside) we try not to go out of our way to be racist. By ensuring the aboriginal peoples have an opportunity to be part of the field and strongly encouraging it as so many school try to do, it only gives support to that creed. We have recognized the consequences of injustices of the past (even if we continue to propogate some further injustice today), but we are try to correct it. This is one of the ways. Aboriginals have it a lot worse than you think. Just because you went to one community last summer, doesn't mean you can speak for the whole. The numbers give a very good story. The disease, prevelance of TB, diabetes, addiction, illiteracy. It is in start disagreement with the rest of the country. If the aboriginal people didn't have it as bad as you think, why would we need an entire ministry dedicated to their progression. Seriously mac_attack, I honestly hope you are just trying to start some debate because if you honestly feel this way, how are you going to treat your aboriginal patients. One of the worst things is a non-trusting relationship between a doctor and their patient. One that trust is broken, the patient no longer feels comfortable seeking medical advice from you, and could potentially turn them off from seeking medical advice from another physician as promptly as they should. I think you are viewing the situation incorrectly. Before you make an evaluation, you need to consider to the best of your abilities both sides of the picture. I think you are making judgments as an outsider as so many Canadians did before us and that's why Aboriginal people are as marginalized as they are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Thank you for changing that title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 There are very, very few aboriginal medical students and doctors. Given the tiny number it ends up having absolutely no real effect on your own medical school application. So it seems rather petty to me to complain about the supposed unfairness of this policy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UBCGuy Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Original Poster, I understand your frusteration, and in many ways share your frusteration, but I have to agree with the rest of the posters in saying that your analysis of the situation is far wide of the mark. Personally I don't believe in having different cutoff for aboriginal peoples both in med school and undergraduate but that is not neccessarily because I think it is unfair to me, a middle class, white, well highschool educated, I think worldly young man (sorry if I sounds like I am tooting my own horn here) but because I think it is unfair to aboriginal youth. Instead of holistically improving their situation in a way that would allow them better pre-university education, in a way that would benefit all youth, we lower the cutoffs to increase the numbers to a level that gives us a sense of satisfaction. In my opinion a false sense of satisfaction. It is terribly ignorant to say that this is a lazyness problem. I think you would be wise to reconsider your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmarks3452 Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Aboriginals in Canada do not have it as bad as people think. I worked in a community last summer in Manitoba and I'm telling you, they get a lot of special privileges, don't pay taxes, have the option of sending their kids to special schools for free, and many other things. The biggest problem facing the communities is basically laziness because they are handed everything and they expect others/the government to take care of everything for them. I think it's time to stop feeling sorry for them and allowing them to be stupider. You're obviously not a minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneliz Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 The different cut offs for different groups of people are not designed to give anybody a 'free ride' or an unfair chance. They are not designed to punish those in the higher cut off categories. Nor are cut offs the mark of a good or potentially good physician. If you think that somebody with a 3.3 GPA is 'stupider' than somebody with a 3.6 or a 3.9, I guess that is your opinion. However, getting a 3.0 is still an achievement. We are not talking about letting in failing students here... or recruiting out of grade 9 with no pre-reqs. The reason that universities set different cut offs is to attract and accept students from a variety of backgrounds. Having diversity in your medical school class is important... but not to make the social scene more exciting or make people 'wordly'... it is about where these people are eventually going to practice. (Which would be the point of educating them to be physicians in the first place). Research has shown that people are most likely to practice in the area a) in which they grew up or in which they trained. Seeing as many of you would not be first in line to go practice on a remote native reserve filled with quote 'lazy' people.... these reserves need to get doctors from somewhere.... and the best place to get them from is by educating their own people to be doctors rather than importing a white or other race person that doesn't understand the culture, is biased against them and doesn't want to be there. So that is why there is a different cut off... not to make the university 'feel' good that they have x number of native students... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neutral Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 The different cut offs for different groups of people are not designed to give anybody a 'free ride' or an unfair chance. They are not designed to punish those in the higher cut off categories. Nor are cut offs the mark of a good or potentially good physician. If you think that somebody with a 3.3 GPA is 'stupider' than somebody with a 3.6 or a 3.9, I guess that is your opinion. However, getting a 3.0 is still an achievement. We are not talking about letting in failing students here... or recruiting out of grade 9 with no pre-reqs. The reason that universities set different cut offs is to attract and accept students from a variety of backgrounds. Having diversity in your medical school class is important... but not to make the social scene more exciting or make people 'wordly'... it is about where these people are eventually going to practice. (Which would be the point of educating them to be physicians in the first place). Research has shown that people are most likely to practice in the area a) in which they grew up or in which they trained. Seeing as many of you would not be first in line to go practice on a remote native reserve filled with quote 'lazy' people.... these reserves need to get doctors from somewhere.... and the best place to get them from is by educating their own people to be doctors rather than importing a white or other race person that doesn't understand the culture, is biased against them and doesn't want to be there. So that is why there is a different cut off... not to make the university 'feel' good that they have x number of native students... Ditto! Also, consider the tax waiver and certain free education as a small renter's fee for occupying their land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince99 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Is anyone else bothered by the fact that for some schools, certain traits like Aboriginal decent or being a francophone give you a boost for getting into med school. I thought Canada was a land of equal opportunity for all. I am appalled that medical schools decrease cut-offs for certain people based on race. The biggest problem facing the communities is basically laziness because they are handed everything and they expect others/the government to take care of everything for them. I think it's time to stop feeling sorry for them and allowing them to be stupider. To this topic I must respond. MacAttack, for my sake and all others on this board, I suggest you do some research before you state an opinion. In addition, I hope that your experiences in medicine will change your attitude. If not I sincerely hope you don't practice medicine with that disturbing attitude. To respond; The reality of the situation in Canada is that many Aboriginal peoples(First Nation, Metis and Inuit, 1982), are at a significant socioeconomic disadvantage as a whole. Therefore, there needs to be procedures in place to increase the chances of Aboriginal peoples succeeding in post-secondary studies, including medicine. Whether this is increased funding or lower cutoffs, so be it. To say that a person with a 3.3 GPA will not be as good of a doctor as a person with a 3.9 GPA is absurd and incorrect. A successful physian is a well-rounded individual, bottom line. A 3.3 GPA is still incredibly good, and qualifies and individual as academically competent. However, in Manitoba especially, the biggest reason Aboriginal peoples should receive special consideration is that there is a tremendous demand. ~25% of the population is Aboriginal, and only 1-2 % of health care professionals are Aboriginal. We need to increase the number of Aboriginal health care professionals. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboDC Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Amen mac_attack, finally you say what is on everybody's mind! Just kidding... you sound like a pretty bitter person but I can see you point. Ideally, I want my doctor to be there and his or her own merit but there are other factors that come into play here. I personally agree with admission policies that allocate spots for people of Aboriginal or French Canadian descent to increase the number of doctorsso that they can practice in these communities and been an inspiration to their people. My only concerns are as follows... Why only Aboriginals and French Canadian? What about Hispanics? What about African Canadians? Why not people with disabilities? Why did they decide to draw the line there? I'm guessing it is for historic reasons as well as a numbers game but seriously, there are many minorities out there, why do these two groups get preference over others? My other concern is about people that qualify as a part of one of these groups who clearly are only interested in abusing it in order to get in Medicine. They do not care about representing their people or helping out their community. They use their 'status' as a stepping stone to get in and abandon their responsibility to their people once this has been accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgray2 Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 one argument is that the purpose of having aboriginal quotas or affirmative action is to increase the number of aboriginal doctors available to treat aboriginal populations. i am curious to know whether they are bonded in any sort of way to work in aboriginal communities afterwards to ensure that the aim of the affirmative action policy is working. does anyone know? there's a girl that i know who is from one of the territories (i forget which) who is on full scholarship (non-aboriginal, i think). however, she must go back and practice for a certain # of years in the territories or else she will have to pay it all back to the government. this makes sense to me. sure, research may suggest that they will go back to their communities, but why take the chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince99 Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 My other concern is about people that qualify as a part of one of these groups who clearly are only interested in abusing it in order to get in Medicine. They do not care about representing their people or helping out their community. They use their 'status' as a stepping stone to get in and abandon their responsibility to their people once this has been accomplished. TurboDC you raise a valid concern. In general, prospective medical students are of sound moral and ethical character, for the most part. In other words, I doubt anyone would ever abuse the system. "Representing their people" and "helping out the community" as a physician is a vary vague reference. An Aboriginal physician can "represent his people" by being a role model in both the urban or rural community OR in many other ways. The reality today is that greater than 50% of Aboriginal peoples in Canada live in urban areas. The idea that upon graduation, an Aboriginal doctor must work in rural communities to serve his people is innacurate. Note: Even if an Aboriginal doctor did not directly work with Aboriginal patients, he'd still be a role model for younger prospective post-secondary education students and for both the Aboriginal and Canadian communities as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 I'm happy that there is debate on this. It is a rare thing in a world swooned in a trance of political correctness. Yeah, I agree that people are entitled to their opinions... but they should remember to present them in a respectful manner. I too have wondered, why just rural, why just aboriginals? Who should decide which group should get benefits, and who shouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimmyMax Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Hey, How come Francophones have been left out of this debate thus far??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuantum Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 I don't know. However, I think the Aboriginal people are especially unique because of the immediate conditions affecting this group. Looking at the history (its very reminiscent of the post-colonial disarray that many African countries currently find themselves in). Also, the shere population size and impact on this society and the fact that its not reflected in the medical profession should be addressed. I mean, the number of Francophone physicians is probably not in agreement with the number of exclusively Francophone people in our society, and that is something that is also currently being dealt with. Take CNFS at Ottawa, that's a start. It's probably not enough (I think MB should also have one because of its large Francophone population) but it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muchdutch Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 From my understanding it's not like Aboriginal people (ditto with rurals and francophones) are 'pushing you out' of your spot in med school. They set aside a certain number of spots for these candidates over and above the class quota to be filled with these applicants. If they can not find a suitable candidate, then they go unfilled (please correct me if I'm wrong). So I would mostly focus on my own application if I were you. In life there will always be someone who has a seemingly unfair advantage over you - they know the right person, they are the right race/gender/height/weight/size/shape/color etc. There is no escaping this, and if you can't learn to move your focus past these areas, you may be disappointed and upset more often than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonesRN Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 In life there will always be someone who has a seemingly unfair advantage over you - they know the right person, they are the right race/gender/height/weight/size/shape/color etc. There is no escaping this, and if you can't learn to move your focus past these areas, you may be disappointed and upset more often than not. Exactly. Que sera sera. Tones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDoc Posted January 31, 2007 Report Share Posted January 31, 2007 Exactly. Que sera sera. Tones Que sera sera. That's one of my favourite episodes of House title. Anyways, I've heard of people getting full scholarships from the government to study medicine, and then become a family physician, and then practice family medicine in the province, or wherever, for a certain number of years. They make you sign some contract or something, which I think is great. Some people, genuinely want to be family physicians, and that is an awesome oppurtunity for them. There is a shortage of doctors in rural areas. I've heard alot of people complain how unfair it is to give students in SWOMEN communities lower MCAT breaks and such at UWO. An MCAT is a great predictor of success in medical school, but it doesn't necessarily define the kind of physician you will make. Aboriginal people need medical care too. Alot of Canadians don't understand/care to understand what the aboriginals are going through. For example, polluted water, third world country living conditions, and the like. It's not fair that some settlers decide to show up in 1608, and then rampage wild on the land. Most of the time, we sweep the responsibilities we have as human beings under the rug. Out of sight and out of mind. Lock them up in reserves, and it's the h-oasis up in the rest of Canada. Clean water, nice paved roads, snow removal, and not to mention that wonderful pollution that we aren't doing anything about(watch "An Inconvenient Truth" GREAT MOVIE). It's disgusting that we have third world living conditions in a country that is supposed to be land of the free, and we have our own version of concentration camps called native reserves. Not every reserve is that bad, but these conditions exist. So what's wrong with letting aboriginals into medical school with a lower cut off? In my opinion, absolutely nothing. We can't keep ignoring the problems of today, with temporary solutions. "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing, and baffling expedience of delays is coming to a close. In its place, we are coming to a period of consequences." - Winston Churchill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince99 Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Aboriginal people need medical care too. Alot of Canadians don't understand/care to understand what the aboriginals are going through. For example, polluted water, third world country living conditions, and the like. It's not fair that some settlers decide to show up in 1608, and then rampage wild on the land. Most of the time, we sweep the responsibilities we have as human beings under the rug. Out of sight and out of mind. Lock them up in reserves, and it's the h-oasis up in the rest of Canada. Clean water, nice paved roads, snow removal, and not to mention that wonderful pollution that we aren't doing anything about(watch "An Inconvenient Truth" GREAT MOVIE). It's disgusting that we have third world living conditions in a country that is supposed to be land of the free, and we have our own version of concentration camps called native reserves. Not every reserve is that bad, but these conditions exist. So what's wrong with letting aboriginals into medical school with a lower cut off? In my opinion, absolutely nothing. We can't keep ignoring the problems of today, with temporary solutions. Good points! The issue needs to be adressed, and the first step is to increase the number of Aboriginal health care professionals using any means possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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