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Aboriginals and preferential treatment in the medical school admissions process


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From my understanding it's not like Aboriginal people (ditto with rurals and francophones) are 'pushing you out' of your spot in med school. They set aside a certain number of spots for these candidates over and above the class quota to be filled with these applicants. If they can not find a suitable candidate, then they go unfilled (please correct me if I'm wrong).

 

So I would mostly focus on my own application if I were you. In life there will always be someone who has a seemingly unfair advantage over you - they know the right person, they are the right race/gender/height/weight/size/shape/color etc. There is no escaping this, and if you can't learn to move your focus past these areas, you may be disappointed and upset more often than not.

 

Exactamundo

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This issue is one that just five or six months ago, I wouldn't have had a single idea about. In fact, back when I was naïve to the condition and many aspects of the history of Aboriginal peoples, I wondered a lot of the same things that were posted in the initial post. I was raised in a religiously sheltered home and had never had the chance to get to know personally people in the gay/lesbian/bisexual/transvestite community, people of other racial descent, or people of other religious beliefs, Aboriginals included.

 

Now that I am in a medical school class I have been blessed to get to know some people of Aboriginal descent. I have only begun to address some of the misconceptions I had.

 

Everyone has a basic understanding about the "we're on their land" concept. However, poor treatment of Aboriginals has occurred more recently than you might think. Lack of the most basic human needs (ie. clean water) on Canadian reserves has happened only a few months ago, with the Canadian government directly to blame. But most people know about that too. One of these things that I had no idea about just a few months ago concerns the residential school system. In the last few months I have been horrifed to learn about this despicable part of Canadian history. A description can be found at CBC Archives or on Wikipedia. I have heard stories of Aboriginal students abused in every way, from being forced to use only the English language, to being forced to sleep in human excrement under outhouses. I began to realize that for these horrors, any amount of money in the world wouldn't fix or help having to grow up with parents or grandparents who suffered through this and are still emotionally scarred by it. Then I found out that people I know were old enough to have gone to these schools. The last one closed in 1996, during your lifetime.

 

Another misconception I had was about the medical school admissions standards for Aboriginal applicants. I've been in your position, so you might be surprised - as I was - to hear that Aboriginal applicants don't 'have it made' as much as I thought they did. Yes, while some medical schools have different requirements or admissions subcommittees for Aboriginals, still a huge percentage of declared Aboriginal applicants are turned away each year. I can't find the exact numbers, but unlike how I first thought it was, being of Aboriginal descent isn't a 'free pass' into medicine. Therefore, I believe that anyone who thinks that Aboriginal students might use their 'status' to 'abuse the system' or 'skip the queue' needs to realize that this isn't easy to do. Aboriginal applicants will be interviewed on ethics and integrity just like every other medical applicant there is, and don't try to tell me that there are no other medical applicants who have ruined other peoples thesis experiments, misconstrued themselves, or told a lie just to get into medicine. Admissions offices have filters for these bad seeds, and they come from every background.

 

One of my most memorable classes to date was held in an Aboriginal longhouse. We had an Aboriginal physician and speakers from the Aboriginal community talk to us about Aboriginal health issues. We learned some basic things like the medicine wheel, which relates to the four directions of life (more on that at http://www.diabeteshealingtrail.ca/traditionalhealing.html). Good health, according to Aboriginal tradition, can be achieved by finding balance between the four areas. Knowing things like this, they told us, will help us relate to our Aboriginal patients even better in the future.

 

I felt honoured a few weeks later when my Aboriginal friend's father was telling me about a man of whom he thought very highly. "He's very balanced," he told me. I knew exactly where he was coming from. I couldn't help but smile and realize that I had finally learned something of real meaning in my medical school class.

 

You're not the only person who doesn't understand these things fully. I didn't. I still don't. One of my Aboriginal friends has even told me that she has had people ask her to her face, "Why do you people get it so good? Why don't you have to pay taxes, etc." and the pain that a misinformed question like this causes is horrible, and could be avoided if we simply overcame our misunderstandings. I still have a long way to go, and am hoping that I didn't say something ignorant or offensive even in this post. But give me credit for trying to increase my awareness, and while you may have offended some people in the way you phrased your comments, I hope you're going down that path as well.

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I really enjoyed reading your post, Vitum_Medicinus.:) I stayed out of the debate because I have very little knowledge about Aboriginals and their particular needs (I've only been in Canada for about 8 months), but I find your humility and willingness to expand your horizons and overcome your prejudices to be very commendable even if I can't quite judge the accuracy of everything you stated due to my own shortcomings in this area.

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A cheer for Vitum (who also writes a pretty good blog) for saying what needed to be said here.

 

I ask: does anyone really believe that someone who is abjectly unqualified would get into medical school in this country? I seriously doubt it.

 

Canada's record on the treatment of Aboriginals is atrocious. Our "reserve" system was the basis for the township system of Apartheid, which speaks to how "easy" those on the rez have it. Time to face the music and stop being so hypocritical on the human rights violations that this country has committed and continues to ignore.

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I have only read the first post, so forgive me if my response may no longer be in context. First of all, I think the initial poster needs to seriously think whether they are suited to be a doctor.

 

Secondly, given that these medical schools offer but a few seats to aboriginals, why are you so upset? They are not the ones taking your seat, other more competitive applicants are. I think it is a good thing the admission requirements are slightly lower for aboriginal applicants, as there is a greater shortage of doctors in the communities they represent than other areas.

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  • 4 weeks later...
As a francophone, I would like to make a point. Being franco-ontarienne, I have only one choice for medical school, if I want to continue my studies in french. That is the University of Ottawa --- 40 spots total.

(Medical schools in Quebec don't accept Ontario residents)

 

I would ask those of you who think that is an "unfair advantage" for me, to consider how many spots total across Canada are open to you.

 

Probably more than 40.

 

Yes, definitely more than 40, but how many more english speaking applicants are there? WAY more.

 

Everyone feels that their situation is unfair and that they are at a disadvantage ...you gotta work with what you have and hey, at least an opportunity is better than no opportunity at all. Grass is always greener...

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As an aboriginal person and former RN now in my 3rd year of medicine, it is extremely disappointing to see that negative attitudes towards First Nations people continue to persist (due to lack of education regarding the history of Canada’s Aboriginal peoples). There are a number of misconceptions that I would like to take the opportunity to clear:

 

First of all, Aboriginal people DO pay taxes. As a ‘status indian’ who does not live and work on a ‘reserve’, I am required to pay regular taxes and income tax just like everyone else. The only time I would not have to pay tax is if I were to live and work on a reserve.

 

Secondly, although I qualified for education grants, there can be waiting lists for Aboriginal students to obtain such funding. I did not want to be placed on a waiting list for funding so I applied and obtained student loans like many Canadian students.

 

Thirdly, despite a competitive GPA, originating from a remote northern reserve, healthcare experience working in both urban and rural/outpost settings, I was not accepted into medical school until my 2nd attempt...I believe I tanked my first interviews by not consistently making eye contact which is considered rude in my local culture.

 

It is vital that health professionals possess an understanding of how assimilation and acculturation have resulted in the present conditions and barriers faced by First Nations people. The process of colonialism and the operation of residential schools have created legacies reflected in high suicide rates among First Nation youth, as well as a high incidence of substance abuse, family violence and alcoholism. My father was taken away from my grandmother and placed in a residential school when he was only 5 years old. He remembers being made to feel that he was less than human, he was punished for speaking his native language, and he was not permitted to speak to his older sister who was also placed within the same school. In many of these schools, males and females were not allowed to have contact with one another. As a result, these children grew up not knowing members of the opposite sex. This in turn had long terms effects on establishing 'normal' relationships with members of the opposite sex as well as the lack of opportunity learning about what it means to live within a ‘family’. There now exists a ‘cycle of abuse’ in many remote reserves. I have had my share of experiences working as an RN in many of these reserves.

 

As an Aboriginal healthcare professional, I belong to a very small group which continues to grow thanks to some of the opportunities now available. I do not believe that my experience has been more difficult than many who have worked and made sacrifices in order to fulfill their dreams. However, I once quit highschool because myself and others from my reserve were routine targets for racial slurs and comments. This does not do much for a young person’s self esteem when they are in grade 9 and having to leave a home community and family in order to attend secondary school. As the first person in my family to gain a degree, I remember struggling to overcome an underlying lack of self-confidence. At times, a career in medicine seemed far beyond my reach. Though my path has led me to consider some rather painful issues, it is necessary for myself and others of Aboriginal ancestory to actively engage in reclaiming our traditional values, practices and sense of self. Regaining a pride in my heritage has provided me with the strength to grow along the path of the direction I seek and that I do possess the drive and ability to be a successful physician. Further, I want other Aboriginal people to realize that certain career aspirations are not beyond their reach.

 

Aboriginal physicians are needed in the drive to improve the health status of Canada's First Nations. I believe that it is necessary to focus on education and the building of community empowerment in order to resolve some of the health related disparities. When I envision myself as a physician, I see myself in the role of advocate with a major focus on providing, through leadership, whatever assistance is required to enable my community to build its own health capacity. By strengthening the presence of native physicians and nurses, we can help to improve that health status of 'First Nations' by encouraging active participation in a process of collective transformation that is reflective my people......who have their own values, visions and aspirations.

 

I apologize for my ‘long windedness’.

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Hey,

 

No apologies necessary! Thank you for the very informed and insightful post about the challenges surrounding aboriginals in this day and age. It's nice to hear the real story rather than a bunch of posters whining about how it's unfair that certain groups seem to get preferential treatment.

Many congratulations are in order for your taking on these challenges and overcoming them in gaining acceptance to medical school. You are truly an excellent role model for your community! Best of luck in your studies! :D

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Did anyone notice the OP never engaged in discussions in this thread? Based on some of his/her previous posts in this forum, I would say he/she just enjoys getting a kick out of having people riled up with controversial issues and is borderline trolling. As to how he/she really feels about the issues, who knows?

 

Some very good thoughts expressed in the thread though.

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NorthernRNMD, I just wanted to say that yours was one of the most eloquent, thoughtful and thought-provoking posts I have seen around here in a while. The best of luck to you in your medical education - it sounds like you certainly have your priorities straight, and know why you're there. Thank you for that.

 

m.

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  • 1 month later...

now I have had myself at times thinking of the flaw in the aboriginal situation... as I know of some certain situations...

 

I do believe that if you were brought up, experienced the culture and have background in a rural setting or on a reserve, by all means I think the different pools for aboriginals should be established as most likely they will be going back to practice medicine where it is needed.

 

However, what I didn't see was people discuss those not from reserves... I know of many people who are as well as ridiculous as this may sound... virtually 1/16th aboriginal and have aboriginal status... while living in a mansion in suburbia driving beemers.... and the way for them to have a letter to get into this pool is "ya ill probably just volunteer at some metis place to get a letter from them if i need it." Hopefully this does not come across as ignorant but people who claim status that do not even know what it means to be aboriginal are gutless ... as probably they have even taken spots away from the aboriginal applicants who actually are 'aboriginal'

 

hopefully admissions sees through the deceit that can come out of this process...there is always going to be a lack of integrity on both ends of the application spectrum

 

this was just my two cents

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now I have had myself at times thinking of the flaw in the aboriginal situation... as I know of some certain situations...

 

I do believe that if you were brought up, experienced the culture and have background in a rural setting or on a reserve, by all means I think the different pools for aboriginals should be established as most likely they will be going back to practice medicine where it is needed.

 

However, what I didn't see was people discuss those not from reserves... I know of many people who are as well as ridiculous as this may sound... virtually 1/16th aboriginal and have aboriginal status... while living in a mansion in suburbia driving beemers.... and the way for them to have a letter to get into this pool is "ya ill probably just volunteer at some metis place to get a letter from them if i need it." Hopefully this does not come across as ignorant but people who claim status that do not even know what it means to be aboriginal are gutless ... as probably they have even taken spots away from the aboriginal applicants who actually are 'aboriginal'

 

hopefully admissions sees through the deceit that can come out of this process...there is always going to be a lack of integrity on both ends of the application spectrum

 

this was just my two cents

 

I am not Aboriginal at all (not even 1/16th or anything) but I think you may be misunderstood in the purpose of having spots reserved for a maximum number of Aboriginals each year.

 

Aboriginals are highly underrepresented in the medical profession. This is a problem because they are one of the largest populations in Canada that access health care resources (I believe the elderly and children are the most). It is important for people to have someone they can relate to when they seek medical care, because the fact is, people trust others who are more like themselves than different. Now, this is beyond a person that just looks like them, but if a person can actually self-identify (regardless of whether they grew up in suburbia driving a beemer). All we need is someone that can act as a role model that is able to show other Aboriginals that the medical profession is not some distant land they don't have access to. Medicine is a helping profession and I think admissions committees are trying to improve the Aboriginal situation by producing doctors that are able to self-identify with the population regardless of their upbringing.

 

Consider this, imagine an Aboriginal person who grew up in downtown Toronto. Their parents were victims of the residential school system and they have lived on and off the street for the last 10 years. They were able to improve their life and make it to university and now they are interested in medicine. This person has certainly had a hard life, but because they grew up in downtown Toronto they have no idea about Aboriginal culture or reserve life. Would you say this person is suitable or not to claim special consideration as an Aboriginal...even though they know practically nothing about Aboriginal culture?

 

It is not about how you grew up, or what degree of culture you have socialized upon you, it is about whether or not you and those coming up behind you can take the initiative to do something about the lack of Aboriginal people in the medical field. Self-identifying, to me, is a start to motivating the one kid who has dreamed about becoming a doctor but never thought they could. Seeing someone who says I am Aboriginal and am a doctor, therefore, you can do it too says a lot of motivation from my view. It is not all that is necessary, but its a start.

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I understand and fully agree with what you said from that situation standpoint but that was not what I was speaking of.

 

In reference of what you said: It is not about how you grew up, or what degree of culture you have socialized upon you, it is about whether or not you and those coming up behind you can take the initiative to do something about the lack of Aboriginal people in the medical field. Self-identifying, to me, is a start to motivating the one kid who has dreamed about becoming a doctor but never thought they could. Seeing someone who says I am Aboriginal and am a doctor, therefore, you can do it too says a lot of motivation from my view. It is not all that is necessary, but its a start.

 

The flaw I was speaking of well, I have yet to know an aboriginal applicant from what you described. However the ones I do know, which is only around 4, really just use their status to get government jobs and apply to med. As applying to med , they do not want to write the mcat and have average g.p.a but more than the standard cutoff for aboriginals and even just applying to 3 schools by having a status you are not really aware of and one parent that really doesnt even know the roots just that their kids can get this status... and take away seats from Aboriginals in current society that would actually say "i am Aboriginal and am a doctor".... not "i just found out i am Aboriginal and now i am a doctor"...

 

I still believe that admissions should look into who they are selecting as Aboriginal applicants as there are many types; I hope you agree that there are people that can put on a pretty good facade, and for some people this is a very good loophole...

 

Nonetheless what you said I agree with however I hope you see where I am coming from.

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A personal opinion here....

 

Do I believe that aboriginals should recieve any preferential treatment? No.

What is even more important though, is I don't think even aboriginals trying to enter medicine want preferential treatment. In fact, I would be willing to bet that any aboriginal striving to get into medicine has the same standards of ethics and achievement that any of us have, and is quite frankly ASHAMED that they would be given a "free ride" in.

 

The over-quota spots reserved for aboriginals is a result of a very flawed attempt by a very guilt-ridden white-dominated government to make up for the actions of colonizing english and french in the past. Aboriginals were quite obviously given the shaft by us, and we have been trying to make up since, and likely will until (inevitably) the "Aboriginal" race is absorbed genetically into the diverse blend of other races that form the majority of the Canadian population (see current Canadian census).

 

So, the present system comes down to politics. As everything does. But I can guarantee you that any Native Canadian looking to enter medicine is absolutely humiliated that such a lofty high-achieving goal as medicine would be forever cheapened for them by the prospect of being given a "free ride". How would any of you feel if it could be truthfully said that you got in easier than anyone else? What if I could prove once any of you got in that you got in only because of who your father was? Or because of who you were friends with? I know when I get into meds, I want to be able to look back and say that I got here under my own power, not by catching a ride from someone else. It is in fact an injustice to the achievement by young Native Canadians entering medicine that they will never fully be able to do this. They will always have the shadow of "privelege" hanging over what is a very difficult achievement. What an unfortunate situation for these "fortunate, spoiled" Native Canadians to find themselves in indeed.

 

Aside:

 

Racism will not cease until we as humans cease to recognize races. I am not white. You are not black. He or she is not asian, brown, hispanic or slavic. We are human. And more than that, we are PEOPLE. People do not have a colour. We have ideas, insights, goals, passions and dreams. To quantify people by meaningless traits is to limit our potential as a whole.

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Sorry if this is off-topic, but I was reading and some people mentioned UWO and lowering the MCAT standards. I agree with doing this for UNDERSERVED areas, but evidently, cities like London, Ottawa, Vancouver, Calgary, Halifax are not underserved, yet they get extra benefits. I do not see the logic in that at all.

 

I agree that the bar shouldn't be frozen, but I don't think it's necessary to set separate cut-offs. Why can't the people from under-priviledged populations, i.e. Aboriginal, Francophone, etc. just write a letter explaining their current heritage/devotion to their community, etc. just like you would do to explain special circumstances that you wish to be looked at? I'm not trying to be offensive here, but I think special status should be earned, not just given. And I truly wonder what a person from Ottawa would write in defense of deserving the GPA cut off to be 3.6 in contrast with 3.83 or 3.87 for other Ontario and OOP applicants respectively.

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I really do see where you are coming from...but I'm really not all that convinced...not even slightly.

 

THe thing is, it is difficult to see it as being given a free ride in the same way people are admitted into program based from neopotism. Also, the standards are not necessarily lower. At most schools, the interviews are generally more rigorous than the regular category interviews. So, if I was in the same position, would I feel humiliated...no. I know I am not in the same position so it is hard to comment. However, if those applying were humiliated then why haven't the numbers of those applying through special category being low compared to the overall number of those with Aboriginal ancestry applying to med?

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Why haven't the numbers been lower? Because, quite simply, human nature is to take the easy way, even if it is not the most morally satisfying way. While I did previously state that I would like to be able to say I got into med without any help, if there were a special acceptance catagory for white, middle-class males, I would be in there in a second. Why? Because my goal of getting into medicine is more important than my moral purity. Shameful? Yes. Humiliating? Yes. Practical? YES....

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I'm still not convinced by the whole humiliating thing...it is different speaking as a person who actually doesn't need the help versus someone for which it was designed for. I guess you could argue that even though going on welfare is humiliating, people still do it because they need the help.

 

Nonetheless, the problem still exists. Ideally, we'd attack the issue at the earliest possible stage...before the child even starts school. In fact, we'd begin with parental education in a way the incorporates core aboriginal values with societal values.

 

If I was given the opportunity, I'd gladly take it shamelessly. Maybe that just reflects two different upbringings. *shrugs shoulders*

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A personal opinion here....

 

Do I believe that aboriginals should recieve any preferential treatment? No.

What is even more important though, is I don't think even aboriginals trying to enter medicine want preferential treatment. In fact, I would be willing to bet that any aboriginal striving to get into medicine has the same standards of ethics and achievement that any of us have, and is quite frankly ASHAMED that they would be given a "free ride" in.

 

The over-quota spots reserved for aboriginals is a result of a very flawed attempt by a very guilt-ridden white-dominated government to make up for the actions of colonizing english and french in the past. Aboriginals were quite obviously given the shaft by us, and we have been trying to make up since, and likely will until (inevitably) the "Aboriginal" race is absorbed genetically into the diverse blend of other races that form the majority of the Canadian population (see current Canadian census).

 

So, the present system comes down to politics. As everything does. But I can guarantee you that any Native Canadian looking to enter medicine is absolutely humiliated that such a lofty high-achieving goal as medicine would be forever cheapened for them by the prospect of being given a "free ride". How would any of you feel if it could be truthfully said that you got in easier than anyone else? What if I could prove once any of you got in that you got in only because of who your father was? Or because of who you were friends with? I know when I get into meds, I want to be able to look back and say that I got here under my own power, not by catching a ride from someone else. It is in fact an injustice to the achievement by young Native Canadians entering medicine that they will never fully be able to do this. They will always have the shadow of "privelege" hanging over what is a very difficult achievement. What an unfortunate situation for these "fortunate, spoiled" Native Canadians to find themselves in indeed.

Aside:

 

Racism will not cease until we as humans cease to recognize races. I am not white. You are not black. He or she is not asian, brown, hispanic or slavic. We are human. And more than that, we are PEOPLE. People do not have a colour. We have ideas, insights, goals, passions and dreams. To quantify people by meaningless traits is to limit our potential as a whole.

 

None of this is the issue here. I doubt you can guarantee me anything of the sort. The issue is not equality and has little to do with humiliation, privilege, racism, or shame. Equity between cultural groups does not mean providing equal opportunity. Native Canadians are disadvantaged as a group, not because they are still 'considered a race and not simply human', but because of the systematic destruction of their heritage, culture, and communities that has occurred over the past 5 centuries, and really only started to be recognized by the government in the past 5 decades. None could vote until 1960. The 'special' privileges afforded Natives for decades used a definition that excluded anyone with less than 51% 'genuine' heritage unless he or she lived on a reserve.

 

No, the wounds of colonialism will not be healed by affording aboriginals (under any definition) a few advantages in terms of getting jobs or entering medical school. The initiative of the government is not political in terms of appeasing critics or Natives, because the fact is that too few care for this type of move to win votes. However, as previously mentioned by other posters, aboriginal communities are hopelessly underserved medically, and the fact is, individuals with at least some sort of connection might be more likely to work in these needy regions.

 

To complain about racism and your (apparently) personal humiliation at the equitable system that has been established to encourage Native Canadians to become doctors in the same post betrays your ignorance. If you care about these kinds of issues, become informed, inform others, and do something.

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Perhaps you are correct in that I am not the best informed in terms of the motivation behind differential admissions into med school, but I would contend that racial heritage and likelihood to serve in an underserved area are quite poorly correlated. Furthermore, I would strongly argue that the underlying reason for the lack of service to these areas is related to issues of race. While all rural Canadian areas are currently suffering from doctor shortages, areas with large Native populations fare the worst. Since this can hardly be due to the size of town, location etc. (as just mentioned, similar white-majority small centers face a less-serious shortage), one can conclude that the population has some negative stigma attached to it. And as I alluded to in the conclusion to my last post, the only way to eliminate racial stigma is to eliminate the concept of race. Racism exists because there is a line that can be drawn. Remove the ability to draw such a line, and racism will vanish. Designated spots in medical school for people of Native descent serve only to highlight them racially, creating a line that can be drawn.

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I do believe that people living on reserves should be able to have this special consideration.

 

Once I re-evaluated the post about how even if aboriginals do not not about their culture or anything and that if their family was poor and had to struggle... they should be given treatment... well now that does not seem to make sense as this can be applied to absolutely anyone.... so then they should be subjected to the absolutely anyone pool too... which is... the general pool.

 

I however also agree with a poster above that said that if someone is receiving special treatment they should also present a case of why they should receive it ... even though some flaws can be presented in this , I think it would be much greater than just providing a letter from an organization you could have volunteered at for two months and voila...

 

 

Maybe I do not understand the whole system or maybe alot of people don't see what I think, which is

 

If you are aboriginal and are actually involved in the community: by all means, I believe it is fair to have a different pool

 

If you are a 8th generation metis or another type which you do not really care but are just using your status because you can: This is wrong ... lets incorporate a personal statement to filter out these people stealing spots from those that would actually serve the aboriginal community as these spots are intended for.

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Legally, I stand by section 15 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Equality).

 

But Aboriginals are also governed by a special federal guide lines.

 

Personally, I am frustrated with the comments made by an aboriginal speaker at my highschool, who said that her family had been here on Vancouver Island forever, and that we all stole their land, and as such she is entitled to significant compensation from the government.

 

I'd like to point out that there are many other racial groups in Canada who have been discriminated against by the government; Japanese Canadians, Chinese Canadians, Doukabours, and even Les Canadiens.. and today, the animosity in these groups seems to be very low, even given the government's inconsistent treatments in the past.

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padlock...and some others...I'm wondering whether or not you are confusing "Special Category" with Special Treatment". As you've noticed, they both have the word "special", but they are not the same thing.

 

Special category is designed to admit applicants that have identified themselves as unique and wanting to contribute to the medical community and society in a way that is unique from the regular applicant pool. Sure the NUMERICAL cut-offs may be lower, but the standards required for becoming a physician and the same qualities befitting a physician are still required. There is nothing here that reads special treatment (even if you think people that allegedly don't deserve it are using it). We shouldn't be focusing on the applicant, we should be focusing on the people that applicant may be influencing in a positive way. Recruiting more of these people is why they may be considered special applicants...but they certainly aren't given special treatment.

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