Halcyon Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Along with that, though, grade inflation has surged, so a 60% 40 years ago is NOT the same thing as a 60% now. That was back when a Dean's Honours List at 80% or higher actually meant something (i.e. top 5%), not the 30% like it is now. Not to mention that the 'average' student 40 years ago was probably much smarter than the 'average' student today, since 40 years ago only really smart people went to university, unlike today when almost everyone goes to university because 'that's what you do.' Those "really smart people" you are speaking of that went to university 40 years ago were mostly white men from well-off families. Nothing against white men...it's just how it was. In the past 40 years, university has become accessible to the rest of the population. Now the class compositions have completely changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
japlanet Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 Those "really smart people" you are speaking of that went to university 40 years ago were mostly white men from well-off families. Nothing against white men...it's just how it was. In the past 40 years, university has become accessible to the rest of the population. Now the class compositions have completely changed. The fact that classes have gotten more diverse does not mean that the average student should become less intelligent. The problem is that there are just so many MORE people, not that diversity has increased. We don't need to let in less intelligent people in order to increase diversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashmetoo Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 lol.. we took their land.. so should give them something to show for it:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svp2k5 Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 First time posting, so hello all! I've gone through the Aboriginal admissions process at some schools and not at others, so I thought I'd share my experience. For the schools that do have said admissions process, I had to send a letter from my band/community stating that I was a member in good standing, and affiliated with that particular First Nation. A copy of a card stating I belonged to a particular community was not enough, I needed proof that I was an active member (although a copy was required). For some schools, I also needed a letter from a prominent member of the Aboriginal community who could vouch for my commitment to Aboriginal people in general. On top of that, I was required to send a personal statement explaining why I wanted to be a physician, what becoming an Aboriginal physician meant, what specific health problems needed to be addressed etc. All of this needed to be completed on top of the "regular" application. At the interviews to these schools, there was always at least one well-respected member of a local Aboriginal community, or even an Aboriginal medical student. I was asked questions about healthcare, barriers to health and what my culture meant to me and why. If you ask me, they were pretty shrewd; it wasn't easy. Eventually, I decided to go to a school where there was a clear dedication towards Aboriginal students. I went to public schools, and was often the only Aboriginal person (aside from my brother, of course). It is such a wonderful feeling to have others to look up to, to mentor Aboriginal students in the incoming class, and just to share the whole experience that is medical school. All of my classmates are curious and interested in everything that we do, and we try to include them all. Some points to consider: 1. Are there people that abuse the system? Sure. Unfortunately for them, we can spot them from a mile away (medschool admissions are not the only way some people abuse their heritage for personal gain). I believe they are in the minority. Even so, we try to encourage them to participate, learn and perhaps return the favour someday. 2. We don't all come from reserves or rural communities; over 50% of Aboriginal people live off reserve and in urban centres. I grew up in cities. There is a huge demand for Aboriginal physicians in urban centres. Not all of us are going to be family docs, either, so to have some sort of "return of service" in a rural community as part of the admissions process is not necessarily a good idea. Would you force a gifted surgeon/radiologist/pathologist etc. to live and work in an area and a specialty in which he/she is not interested? I think it's enough to increase the numbers of Aboriginal physicians first - as more graduate, more will apply, and the shortage will be addressed in both rural and urban centres eventually (I hope). 3. As for serving our "respective communities", please remember that for those people who do come from reserves, the communities are tightly-knit. Everyone knows where you live. Everyone knows where your family lives. Burn-out is extremely high - you find out things about friends and family that are extremely difficult to cope with, and the demands on your time never stop. This is one reason why many choose to serve in a different community; it's just too hard. Did I get a free ride? Of course not. I had to work just as hard, got lucky enough to get in, and I'm happily memorizing icky bacterial infections just like you. If some folks really think I don't belong here, please feel free to keep in touch. I look forward to meeting you face to face as equals a little farther down the road. Sorry for the long post, if anyone has any questions for me, please let me know! Thank you, Miri Thank you for your post. Reading some of the comments in this thread makes you quite aware that there is a lot of ignorance regarding med school admissions, quotas and requirements. I think that a lot of this negativity towards dedicated spots stems more from the frustration caused by how competitive med school admissions are. People are upset at the admissions process in general and are looking for any thread of inconsistency in this process as a way of justifying not getting a spot in med school. In terms of dedicated aboriginal spots, I think everyone should remember how few of these spots actually exist. At schools were they are offered, these spots don't number more than a handful. In every case that I have heard of, the aboriginal students attending med school would have met the requirements for admissions regardless of the dedicated seats. Aboriginal health in our country is atrocious. I think that showing that aboriginal health is being thought about in med schools is important, and may lead to improvement in these communities in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 5, 2009 Report Share Posted April 5, 2009 why is this thread still going? it's obvious aborginals get preferential treatment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 The fact that classes have gotten more diverse does not mean that the average student should become less intelligent. The problem is that there are just so many MORE people, not that diversity has increased. We don't need to let in less intelligent people in order to increase diversity. It's not an issue of class composition; rather, it's an issue of university standards. I don't see this being solved anytime soon as masters degrees become the new bachelors degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
premedgirl101 Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 from my take it has been different the only aboriginal candidates i have known have been from "high class white families", using the card as an advantage to make up for less than stellar grades.... this is what i do not like about the process... most likely stealing seats from individuals that would go back to their respective communities to help as opposed to those who know nothing about the community, just that many generations ago , they had a family member in this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 6, 2009 Report Share Posted April 6, 2009 I don't see this being solved anytime soon as masters degrees become the new bachelors degrees. do you really think this will happen? a masters is quite different from a bachelors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 from my take it has been different the only aboriginal candidates i have known have been from "high class white families", using the card as an advantage to make up for less than stellar grades.... this is what i do not like about the process... most likely stealing seats from individuals that would go back to their respective communities to help as opposed to those who know nothing about the community, just that many generations ago , they had a family member in this group. I'm curious how an Aboriginal candidate can come from a non-Aboriginal / "white" family? I'm not sure what you mean by this .... it doesn't add up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 I'm curious how an Aboriginal candidate can come from a non-Aboriginal / "white" family? I'm not sure what you mean by this .... it doesn't add up to me. I think she means people who are like 1/8 or even less Aboriginal, don't live on the reserve, don't have any immediate relatives who went to residential schools, etc. A former coworker of mine actually discovered she was 1/8 Aboriginal at the age of 51. It's kind of like some people here in Canada, you'll find people who will tell you things like "I'm German." No, you're not, your grandparents were...but your parents and you were born here, so you are NOT German...gets on my nerves, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fireball Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 from my take it has been different the only aboriginal candidates i have known have been from "high class white families", using the card as an advantage to make up for less than stellar grades.... this is what i do not like about the process... most likely stealing seats from individuals that would go back to their respective communities to help as opposed to those who know nothing about the community, just that many generations ago , they had a family member in this group. I just wanted to clarify a few things by relaying some facts that have already been mentioned in this thread, that I feel are important to understanding the current system in place for aboriginal applicants: Aboriginal applicants, for the most part, go through a separate application process and usually apply for quota seats, that don't in anyway affect other applicants. In the case where there are not quota seats, there is still a rigorous application process for aboriginals, which brings me to my next point. Aboriginal applicants are required to submit an application package on top of the regular application. Aboriginal people have to send a letter from their band/community, that confirms that they are a member in good standing. They also have to send in a copy of a status card which illustrates that they belong to a particular community, and the letter must confirm that they are currently an active member of that said community. Aboriginal applicants are also sometimes required to send in a letter from a prominent member of the Aboriginal community which they are affiliated with, who could can confirm the applicants active role in the community, and that they are committed to their community. Lastly, all aboriginal applicants are required to send in a personal letter in which they explain why they want to become a physician, why they are applying as an aboriginal, and not as a regular applicant, and within those reasons discuss the reason this preferential system is in place, and what being an aboriginal physician means to them personally. The applicants are therefore required to not only know about their community, but to prove their affiliation and their current ACTIVE role in the specified community. Along with the additional application package, an aboriginal medical student or community member is involved with the selection of aboriginal applicants. It is also the case that many aboriginal applicants don't even make it to the interview stage, and many aboriginal applicants don't make it past the interview stage. The preferential admissions process for aboriginal applicants is a complex one, that involves much more than lowering GPA standards. I have attached an article that outlines some of the admissions protocols in place, that effectively demonstrate that while some schools make it easier for aboriginal applicants to apply, no aboriginal applicants are given a "free ride" Enjoy IPAC Admissions for Aboriginal Applicants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted April 7, 2009 Report Share Posted April 7, 2009 Great post, Fireball. Thanks for sharing your input and explaining the process for Aboriginal candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOC_Ma Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Don't chastise him like how he chastises others. Surely he can question why the requirements are set up how they are. The manner in which he is doing it is the problem though. I think its because aboriginal people will more likely return to a rural community and provide essential primary care there. There has to be some incentive for them to do so. Well the incentive is big $$$/prestege and many many more isn't that good enough? and I do agree with OP on one point, Canada should be a land of equal opportunity and giving one racial group privilege doesn't seem to follow that ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well the incentive is big $$$/prestege and many many more isn't that good enough? and I do agree with OP on one point, Canada should be a land of equal opportunity and giving one racial group privilege doesn't seem to follow that ideal. In principle I would agree with you - but I am concerned about the flip side as well. I mean the reason the schools are trying to recruit more Aboriginals is similar to the reason this are trying to recruit more rural doctors - the situation in many aboriginal communities is just terrible from a medical point of view. You have a greatly shortened lifespan, 4 times the child mortality rate compared the rest of the country, massive levels diabetes, obscenity, heart disease ...... pretty much every measure of health we have they are significantly worse off. They also happen to be the largest growing segment of the population, which suggests the situation as bad as it is is going to get worse. Aboriginal communities also have the right to equal opportunity to good health and that means having access to medical care. I would be more concerned about the quotes (designed to help improve the situation) if we had some alternative plan/strategy that addresses it some other way. Schools I think have made an tough ethical choice here. The quotas don't follow the principle of justice with respect to the applicants, but they do follow that principle with respect to attempting to equalize patient care. I am not completely happy about it, but since patient care is suppose to trump everything else I can live with it - at least until we figure out a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 how many aborginals are on this forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svp2k5 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well the incentive is big $$$/prestege and many many more isn't that good enough? and I do agree with OP on one point, Canada should be a land of equal opportunity and giving one racial group privilege doesn't seem to follow that ideal. The aboriginal students at my school have never had lower cutoffs than the rest of the class. The difference has been that their was a parallel interview/application process. This whole notion that that group is getting in with substandard MCAT/GPA, etc is totally off base. Even if they did away with the aboriginal spots, it really wouldn't make a difference to the average premed who is applying. At western for instance, there are three dedicated spots for aboriginal students. Typically 1 or 2 of these spots get filled each year. Out of 1800 applicants that takes out 2 spots of the available 147. So really you want from having an 8.05% chance of acceptance to a 8.1% chance. Some of you seem to be reaching at straws and trying to find out how this application process is unjust. It is the way it is, and its not changing because you disagree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdad Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 The whole point of medicine is patient care. Applicants need to have enough faith in the system to trust that this is the number one priority. Different admissions criteria for certain groups is based on research that supports the notion that as a whole our system and all Canadians will be better served as a result. An aboriginal doctor is invaluable to the service of Canada and the health of the entire nation. We need aboriginal doctors. We need their understanding of aboriginal culture, spirituality, community and what it is like to grow up in Canada as part of a marginalized group. I am not talking about a handout or "I feel sorry for you so I will make it easier for you to be a doctor." I am talking about PATIENT CARE. If it is truly all about patient care (and we must trust that it is) then we should institute any measure that better serves groups that really need it because that serves the entire population. I am suspect of people who feel threatened by differing criteria for certain groups (I am not referring to anyone specifically). It is not racist. It is not a slippery slope. Nobody will be excluded because of their race. I sense among some applicants an attitude of "entitlement". This is a selfish problem that I think plagues our whole society and we all fall victim at times to its false sense of pride. When we worry that another will take our spot and it is unfair, we are really saying "I am entitled to that position." Its as if some people think if they have a 4.0 gpa, 40+ MCAT, and lots of experience they think they are automatically entitled to a seat at a medical school. Then if they are not selected they turn bitter and hate the system. I am not saying we should never advocate for change, or that we should always accept the status quo. But it only makes sense that we need to have faith in the main objective of any system that we want to have a place in. Applicants do not choose who gets in, committees do. If we do not trust that they will choose who is best suited for medicine, how can we ever feel confident that we are the best for the job if we are selected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOC_Ma Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 The whole point of medicine is patient care. Applicants need to have enough faith in the system to trust that this is the number one priority. Different admissions criteria for certain groups is based on research that supports the notion that as a whole our system and all Canadians will be better served as a result. An aboriginal doctor is invaluable to the service of Canada and the health of the entire nation. We need aboriginal doctors. We need their understanding of aboriginal culture, spirituality, community and what it is like to grow up in Canada as part of a marginalized group. I am not talking about a handout or "I feel sorry for you so I will make it easier for you to be a doctor." I am talking about PATIENT CARE. If it is truly all about patient care (and we must trust that it is) then we should institute any measure that better serves groups that really need it because that serves the entire population. I am suspect of people who feel threatened by differing criteria for certain groups (I am not referring to anyone specifically). It is not racist. It is not a slippery slope. Nobody will be excluded because of their race. I sense among some applicants an attitude of "entitlement". This is a selfish problem that I think plagues our whole society and we all fall victim at times to its false sense of pride. When we worry that another will take our spot and it is unfair, we are really saying "I am entitled to that position." Its as if some people think if they have a 4.0 gpa, 40+ MCAT, and lots of experience they think they are automatically entitled to a seat at a medical school. Then if they are not selected they turn bitter and hate the system. I am not saying we should never advocate for change, or that we should always accept the status quo. But it only makes sense that we need to have faith in the main objective of any system that we want to have a place in. Applicants do not choose who gets in, committees do. If we do not trust that they will choose who is best suited for medicine, how can we ever feel confident that we are the best for the job if we are selected? well if a person does have a 4.0+GPA + 40+ MCAT and lots of experience and get rejected by med schools then they have every reason to question the system and turn bitter against the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I think even the notion of medical schools wanting to admit more Aboriginal students is a path towards better healthcare in Canada. It sets the general attitude that Aboriginal healthcare (in terrible condition right now) is a priority. I also think its great that med schools (like NOSM for example) integrate Aboriginal cultural studies into their cirriculumn. It therefore enables all students to participate in the betterment of healthcare for Aboriginal communities/people down the road regardless of one's background. So really, I think the reserved seats are a good thing, and should be continued to encourage more Aboriginal applicants to want to apply and feel like they are a valuable part of the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n00b Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Didn't read this thread, but let's face it. Aborginals need doctors too, and no urbanite from a city like Toronto would actually want to practice in a middle-of-nowhere Aborginal tepee camp. They need health care too, and especially from someone who speaks their language and understands their culture, so why not give them a few spots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernDude Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Didn't read this thread, but let's face it. Aborginals need doctors too, and no urbanite from a city like Toronto would actually want to practice in a middle-of-nowhere Aborginal tepee camp. They need health care too, and especially from someone who speaks their language and understands their culture, so why not give them a few spots? It's great that you understand the importance of people receiving health care from physicians who understand them both culturally and linguistically. However, I'd like to point out a couple of things: a) There are many people from places like Toronto who like to gain the experience of doing locums up in isolated Aboriginal communities, who like the challenge and benefits of working on their own in another culture. "Middle-of-nowhere Aboriginal tepee camp" =offensive and border-line racist. Most Aboriginal people actually live in HOUSES nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Cave Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 well if a person does have a 4.0+GPA + 40+ MCAT and lots of experience and get rejected by med schools then they have every reason to question the system and turn bitter against the system. Maybe that person needs to take a look at themselves and realize that there is more to being a good doc than academic scores. If someone didn't get in with those stats they obviously have a few flaws in either themself or their application. eg no extracurricular involvement, no volunteer experience, negative personality traits or disorders, no interview skills etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 a) There are many people from places like Toronto who like to gain the experience of doing locums up in isolated Aboriginal communities, who like the challenge and benefits of working on their own in another culture. Yeah, but they don't need the transient locum care, they need someone there all year round, for continuum of care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmorelan Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 Yeah, but they don't need the transient locum care, they need someone there all year round, for continuum of care. Exactly. That's the problem in a nut shell - they need, and therefore Canada has to figure out how to provide, permanent continuous high quality care. Just to add a touch of other factors to the mix here I would point out it isn't like aboriginal seats are the only such "reserved seats system" we have in all of our medical schools. 1) Western are rules about SWOMEN 2) NOSM is an obvious example 3) Most (All?) schools outside of Ontario have specific OOP seat restrictions 4) Several schools have reserved seats for the military. etc.... We have seat reservations going on all over the place - Where, in theory at least, a "better qualified" candidate would be rejected over a person who by place of birth etc would get in. All of these also serve a clear purpose and in fact the same on as aboriginal seats. The medical schools have identified some segment of the population that they feel is unserviced or would be if the restrictions were lifted, and so for reasons of patient care adopt a particular policy. From the schools/government point of view patient care trumps a completely just med student admission policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THX Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I'm all for having more aboriginal doctors. Their communities are in greater need than the rest of the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.