Blah09 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Wow, just wow. How the hell do you get an interview at Harvard and get rejected from U of T? In that case, screw Toronto. I'd take Harvard any day:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah09 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I also got a rejection. 3.96 GPA and 33R MCAT. Work experience in a clinic, hospital volunteering, research etc. Nothing too special, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesalius Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 It's worth remembering that at UfT, no matter how fancy your MCATs are, that it essentially boils down to a YES or NO flag. Yeah...but your GPA is as fancy as it gets:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey all: Just wanted to bring in the very real possibility of the double cohort effect. If you go to the U of T stats webpage http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0708/Admissions_Statistics.htm You will find the admissoin stats from 2000 to 2006. What I did was I simply divided year 2001 and up's # of applicants by the 2000 number (which I used as baseline), and found that the ratio took a giant leap in 2006; whereas all other years were relatively stable when compared to 2000 baseline. If one does the same calculation with the # interviewed, one would find that the above increased ratio of # applicants in 2006 was not accompanied by an equal increase in the ratio of # interviewed. This would indicate that the number of available spots (I'm sure someone can find the exact numbers over the same period) stayed relatively constant but many more applicants applied in 2006. I'm sure the numbers in the 2007 cycle will be even more dramatic than 2006. So, more number of applicants competing for relative same number of open spots will undoubtedly raise the level of competition.... Not that the system has failed. Maybe it's just that there are simply too many of you that are amazing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostintime Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Hey all: Just wanted to bring in the very real possibility of the double cohort effect. If you go to the U of T stats webpage http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0708/Admissions_Statistics.htm You will find the admissoin stats from 2000 to 2006. What I did was I simply divided year 2001 and up's # of applicants by the 2000 number (which I used as baseline), and found that the ratio took a giant leap in 2006; whereas all other years were relatively stable when compared to 2000 baseline. If one does the same calculation with the # interviewed, one would find that the above increased ratio of # applicants in 2006 was not accompanied by an equal increase in the ratio of # interviewed. This would indicate that the number of available spots (I'm sure someone can find the exact numbers over the same period) stayed relatively constant but many more applicants applied in 2006. I'm sure the numbers in the 2007 cycle will be even more dramatic than 2006. So, more number of applicants competing for relative same number of open spots will undoubtedly raise the level of competition.... Not that the system has failed. Maybe it's just that there are simply too many of you that are amazing! But people with much lower GPAs have been given interviews, despite these people with amazing GPAs and they're obviously not just bookworms given that they've been given interviews at many other prestigious meical schools. So I think it's the essay/extracurriculars that are playing a HUGE factor, because the people with those much lower GPAs have to make up for that with extra triple EC's, unless it's due to the randomization of the whole process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperweight Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Some people here aren't really thinking this through.... People here post their GPA/MCAT and 3 words about their application... honestly, without evaluating someone's entire application (including letters, ABSketch, essays, etc.), we don't know anything... so people (HP18 etc.) stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions just because UofT wont' accept someone with a 4.0 GPA and 40+ MCAT..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Some people here aren't really thinking this through.... People here post their GPA/MCAT and 3 words about their application... honestly, without evaluating someone's entire application (including letters, ABSketch, essays, etc.), we don't know anything... so people (HP18 etc.) stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions just because UofT wont' accept someone with a 4.0 GPA and 40+ MCAT..... I was trying to put it in a nice way with my "I've been in the lab for 20 hours" calculation... Well said, paperweight. And YES, essay is a HUGE component in the U of T application. I personally don't think I would have gotten an interview if it weren't for my essay (2006 cycle). By the way, there's a thread elsewhere on this forum about aboriginal people VS. medschool. An elequent response was written by an aboriginal medical student. That's the kind of essay to strive for. Substance, depth, genuine, personal and moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustylegs Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 As an aboriginal person and former RN now in my 3rd year of medicine, it is extremely disappointing to see that negative attitudes towards First Nations people continue to persist (due to lack of education regarding the history of Canada’s Aboriginal peoples). There are a number of misconceptions that I would like to take the opportunity to clear: First of all, Aboriginal people DO pay taxes. As a ‘status indian’ who does not live and work on a ‘reserve’, I am required to pay regular taxes and income tax just like everyone else. The only time I would not have to pay tax is if I were to live and work on a reserve. Secondly, although I qualified for education grants, there can be waiting lists for Aboriginal students to obtain such funding. I did not want to be placed on a waiting list for funding so I applied and obtained student loans like many Canadian students. Thirdly, despite a competitive GPA, originating from a remote northern reserve, healthcare experience working in both urban and rural/outpost settings, I was not accepted into medical school until my 2nd attempt...I believe I tanked my first interviews by not consistently making eye contact which is considered rude in my local culture. It is vital that health professionals possess an understanding of how assimilation and acculturation have resulted in the present conditions and barriers faced by First Nations people. The process of colonialism and the operation of residential schools have created legacies reflected in high suicide rates among First Nation youth, as well as a high incidence of substance abuse, family violence and alcoholism. My father was taken away from my grandmother and placed in a residential school when he was only 5 years old. He remembers being made to feel that he was less than human, he was punished for speaking his native language, and he was not permitted to speak to his older sister who was also placed within the same school. In many of these schools, males and females were not allowed to have contact with one another. As a result, these children grew up not knowing members of the opposite sex. This in turn had long terms effects on establishing 'normal' relationships with members of the opposite sex as well as the lack of opportunity learning about what it means to live within a ‘family’. There now exists a ‘cycle of abuse’ in many remote reserves. I have had my share of experiences working as an RN in many of these reserves. As an Aboriginal healthcare professional, I belong to a very small group which continues to grow thanks to some of the opportunities now available. I do not believe that my experience has been more difficult than many who have worked and made sacrifices in order to fulfill their dreams. However, I once quit highschool because myself and others from my reserve were routine targets for racial slurs and comments. This does not do much for a young person’s self esteem when they are in grade 9 and having to leave a home community and family in order to attend secondary school. As the first person in my family to gain a degree, I remember struggling to overcome an underlying lack of self-confidence. At times, a career in medicine seemed far beyond my reach. Though my path has led me to consider some rather painful issues, it is necessary for myself and others of Aboriginal ancestory to actively engage in reclaiming our traditional values, practices and sense of self. Regaining a pride in my heritage has provided me with the strength to grow along the path of the direction I seek and that I do possess the drive and ability to be a successful physician. Further, I want other Aboriginal people to realize that certain career aspirations are not beyond their reach. Aboriginal physicians are needed in the drive to improve the health status of Canada's First Nations. I believe that it is necessary to focus on education and the building of community empowerment in order to resolve some of the health related disparities. When I envision myself as a physician, I see myself in the role of advocate with a major focus on providing, through leadership, whatever assistance is required to enable my community to build its own health capacity. By strengthening the presence of native physicians and nurses, we can help to improve that health status of 'First Nations' by encouraging active participation in a process of collective transformation that is reflective my people......who have their own values, visions and aspirations. I apologize for my ‘long windedness’. Pasted from http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19753&page=4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darla Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 So, more number of applicants competing for relative same number of open spots will undoubtedly raise the level of competition.... Not that the system has failed. Maybe it's just that there are simply too many of you that are amazing! bustylegs, this is kinda' sweet.....if you decide to quit medicine, there will always be a position available for you writing friendly rejection letters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahone Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Quote: Some people here aren't really thinking this through.... People here post their GPA/MCAT and 3 words about their application... honestly, without evaluating someone's entire application (including letters, ABSketch, essays, etc.), we don't know anything... so people (HP18 etc.) stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions just because UofT wont' accept someone with a 4.0 GPA and 40+ MCAT..... Big picture paperweight, big picture. This is the way this forum has run itself for years. The posting of simple numbers and basics wrt volunteering and extracurrics gives a benchmark - albeit not a highly quantitative one. What doing so identifies is the extent to which less tangible, more subjective measures of applicants' suitability may contribute to the competitiveness of an application. Explain how a basic science grad student applicant (note: I'm actually NOT referring to anyone on this board) with demonstrated productivity (couple of papers, abstracts, grad level scholarships), low 30s MCAT, low 3.0s (ie, less than 3.5) wGPA, and a well rounded set of extracurrics and volunteer work/experiences gets a U of T interview and some of the ppl with the stats above do not. It, reasonably, must lie in the more nebulous aspects of the application. Sketch, essay, references (??)...the things that nobody can really say "is awesome" since the people who read it make that call. It's very difficult to assign a reliable measure of quality of an essay for instance. Posting basic info like this can give fellow applicants an idea of how they may or may not stack up in the pool. And that IS a helpful thing. So YES, obviously the essay and extracurricular activities play a big role. NO, we'll never have a measure of the quality of those things from individuals who post their basic details here. What some of these posts tell ME is that over the last 4 years, the former elements are weighing progressively MUCH more in the evaluation of the now 3100+ applications. Clearly they need to find the MEGAsuperstars among all of the academic and research (if otherwise bourgeois and garden-variety) superstars Good luck everyone K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerade Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 It's worth remembering that at UfT, no matter how fancy your MCATs are, that it essentially boils down to a YES or NO flag. i mean realistically what happened is that the person who read your application didnt like your essay for some reason or another. either that or one of your references rang false. those kinds of things can jeopardize what looks like an otherwise solid application, and its not so random or crazy .... its just bad luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 After reading this thread, i went to the U of T admissions website and read it *very* carefully. Here are some quotes: It is understood that academic excellence is necessary, but not sufficient, to ensure success as a physician." Therefore, a 4.0 GPA, 45T MCAT, and research productivity is great. But if those stats stand on their own without support from other aspects of the application, then such a candidate may not be selected. "The ideal candidate will have completed a rigorous and coherent course of study, which will provide evidence of an independent, self-directed, and mature learning style/" What is within that 4.0 GPA? Did you take a bunch of birdie courses in order to get that mark? Or is it clear from your transcript that you've followed a few academic passions and have excelled at them? If it's not clear from your transcript why you took particular courses/programs, can you explain it within your essay. "[Non-academic areas] will be judged by review of the applicant's essay and autobiographical sketch, including documentation of duration and impact of non-academic achievements, supported by reference letters." So it's great that you did a bunch of activities. But why did you do those activities and what did you learn from those activities? What drove you to be an environmental activist? What did you learn from being an executive of 5 different clubs? If you have two different applicants who did the same activity, but one explains why he chose to do it and what it meant for him and the other simply lists it, guess who gets more brownie points? For those of you resume padding out there, at least be able to explain what you learned from the activities that you used to pad your resume! I've read applications for job interviews - it is BORING to read a list of the same old stuff over and over again. Who cares whether you worked at Earls or at Cactus Club - it's all the same. But it is interesting to feel the passion that someone has for what they do. The admissions committee assess non-academic qualities, including altruism, reliability, responsibility, perseverance, creativity, and leadership. This can really only be assessed through reference letters and essays. Make sure that your essay and your reference letters give a coherent picture of who you are as a person. Make sure you explain in your essay how your experiences (both academic/non-academic have demonstrated these qualities). Additionally, a reference letter from someone who knows you well and can talk about your personal qualities will be much better than a reference letter that goes something like this: "John Doe volunteered in this hospital for x hours. I believe he was involved in folding napkins. He was always on time to fold napkins. I'm sure he'll be a great candidate for medical school." Also, if you write that you're an amazing, dynamic public speaking superstar, but your reference letters say that you're a nice, responsible, reliable student, then the person assessing your application might think "hmm, interesting..." (and not in a good way). So don't lie about who you are. There is a bit of "crapshoot" in the medical school admissions process. There are great applicants in EVERY school that doesn't get in. Just because you didn't get an interview (or didn't get in ultimately) doesn't mean that you're not a great candidate or that you're a failure. Most of us who have been in the application process more than once (or twice) have come to realize that little things on your application can make a big difference. Be smart and reflective rather than defensive - ask yourself, "What does the admissions committee want to see in a candidate that I haven't given them?" And then improve for next year. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 And I can't believe I just spent 10-15 minutes of my life, writing that long-winded post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah09 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I guess we should just hope to get accepted into the other schools we interviewed at. I recognize I should have improved the quality of my application. Still, I think something strange happened at U of T this year. People getting rejected there, and getting interviewed at some of the top medical schools in the world is just unusual, especially since those schools are so much more selective than U of T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBJ1 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I guess we should just hope to get accepted into the other schools we interviewed at. I recognize I should have improved the quality of my application. Still, I think something strange happened at U of T this year. People getting rejected there, and getting interviewed at some of the top medical schools in the world is just unusual, especially since those schools are so much more selective than U of T. But the thing is, every school looks for different qualities in applicants or may place a different emphasize on different assets that a student may have. Just because so and so got an interview at ____ School of Medicine does not necessarily mean they will get one everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperweight Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I apologize if I came off very angry with my post... though I'm sure my irritation is understood by some. I think Smurfette put it pretty well. I was just very annoyed with some of the really bad posts in this thread (i.e. HP18)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I apologize if I came off very angry with my post... though I'm sure my irritation is understood by some. I think Smurfette put it pretty well. I was just very annoyed with some of the really bad posts in this thread (i.e. HP18)... I understand your irritation and I certainly was not offended by your post. Your point is well taken. But in hp18's defense, I think he/she was simply expressing the frustration and shock that he/she (and many others) feel about the uncertainty of the whole process. Although we may or may not agree with the admissions process, we can all relate to that horrible sense of uncertainty and helplessness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hp18 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I apologize and withdraw my posts .....but getting in medical school in my opinion should be the matter of luck as expressed by few of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blahmanblah Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Would Smurfette care to elaborate on what "little things" can make a "big difference"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hp18 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Would Smurfette care to elaborate on what "little things" can make a "big difference"? Exactly.....it seems GPA & MCAT are insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utscdave2 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 just to let you guys know, i got my official uoft rejection letter today. I don't know why it took so long, but I live in the GTA. best of luck to the rest of you though. i'm planning on busting my ass off for the mcats again this summer (last scores: 13 PS, 12 BS, 8 V, Q) and nail my applications. if any of you want to work together in some sort of group, don't hesitate to pm me. i'm graduating this year btw. don't give up! dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blahmanblah Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Exactly.....it seems GPA & MCAT are insignificant. My question is as it stands. It makes no suggestions to the significance or insignificance of GPA/MCAT. Smurfette has already indicated that with his insightful reading of the University of Toronto admissions website that GPA/MCAT are necessary, but not sufficient for admission. Essays, letters of recommendation, clinical experience, extracurriculars are all clearly significant. They are not "little things" by any measure. I ask what these little things are that matter when everything seems relatively well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clkt Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 I think the percentage breakdown 60% gpa 40% ECs/etc really doesn't mean anything. I believe U of T looks at your application holistically. So if something in your application really jumps out at them, even if it is a component that couts for say 10% of your score (eg letter of intent), and they want to interview you, they can add points here and there to get your score past the interview cutoffs. Whereas, if you look average, then they won't bother. And I am sure they have seen too many 4.0's to be impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paperweight Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 Of course GPA and MCAT are significant... but as many people have mentioned, they are taken into account with everything else in your application. My entire point is that we cannot make generalizations about the process simply based on the GPA/MCAT scores of individuals rejected.... I mean, several people with high GPAs and MCATs post rejections, and all of a sudden people are jumping to the conclusion that UofT doesn't care about GPA's/MCAT scores anymore.. Umm no that's really wrong obviously... If anything, this should tell you to work hard on all parts of your application, and hope for the best. Personally, I prefer the approach like UofT's where everything is taken into account before interviews..... unlike say Queens, where there is a cutoff to determine interviews, but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfette Posted March 21, 2007 Report Share Posted March 21, 2007 Just to clarify... I think GPA and MCAT are important and significant. And in terms of my own application, I wouldn't mind all that much if it were all be based on the GPA and MCAT. I have pretty decent academics (OMSAS GPA~3.98, MCAT=35+). I applied to a few medical schools last year (not U of T) as a third-year applicant. I did not get in. Many of my friends/acquaintances with similar or worse stats did get in. I was hurt and frustrated. And many of my friends were surprised that I didn't get in. Why not? I thought I was a good applicant. Well, after being hurt and frustrated for about a week or two, I took a deep breath and asked myself, "Hmm, what went wrong? Why was I not accepted?" Of course, it would have been much nicer for my ego to tell myself that it was all luck, all "crapshoot", and that medical schools and the admissions process is simply "stupid." But that would be reactive and not proactive and while it might help my ego, it wouldn't help me get in. Well, I did my research. UBC has a feedback session for rejected applicants so I went to that with a list of questions so that I could learn more about their admissions process. I also talked to lots of friends that both got in and didn't and tried to see what might have been the difference (beyond the superficial statistics, which I felt I had). Here are some of the conclusions that I came to. They are my OPINIONS only and may be right or wrong. (1) I had lots of experiences, but I didn't talk about them. At my UBC feedback session, I asked them for examples of activities/experiences that might improve my non-academic portion. They told me some. I was shocked and horrified to realize that I had done many of those activities but I had simply not written them down. Don't just say, I was involved with x organization. Tell them what you learned from it and what you did in that position. You might be a great applicant, but they don't know you - you have to show them in your application/interview. (2) Reference letters make a BIG difference. I know of a few people who's applications were destroyed by weak references. This did not happen to me with my medical school reference letters (as far as I know), but it has happened to me with scholarship reference letters. Choose references who know you and (duh!) like you. (3) I don't think I knew exactly why I wanted to study medicine or how I came to where I am now. Self-reflection is very important. Unless you know why you want to pursue medicine, you won't be able to tell the admissions committee. (4) The admissions committee wants to know who you are as a person. Let your personality shine through and show them how you're going to fit in - whether as a med student or as a doctor. I don't think there's any one personality mode that you have to fit into. All sorts of personalities can be suitable for medicine (well, maybe not the psychopath personality, but you know what I mean... ). The important thing is for you to show the admissions people (both in your application and in the interview) who you are. No matter what the essay questions or interview questions are, the only question they are actually asking is "who are you?" You can say nothing "wrong" on the interview (or the essay), but if you don't show them who you are as a person, then they can't determine if you are the right "fit" for medicine. These are "little things" in the sense that you didn't study for 4 years in order to get a number or study for 3 months in order to write a day-long test. But these "little things" count because everyone else also studied for 3+ years and wrote a day-long test. So after spending a lot of time reflecting and researching, I'm re-applying this year (4th-year student) and hopefully things will work out. As I said before, everything I say is my OPINION only and therefore, I may be "right" or "wrong". I have no inside knowledge; I am by no means an expert on this topic. I'm writing what I *think* is correct and I'm trying to be encouraging for everyone else who is applying. And I would be more than happy to read what other people consider to be "right" or "wrong". *Minor edits for diction. It's so easy for people to completely misunderstand you on these boards...LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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