U of T rejected me because of my religion?

[Chris Pietraszko]

Good analogy, I think the situation is very similar across those 2 cases indeed.

 

ONe thing I can certainly say is that when I went in for a Cathetor Ablation - the doctor treated me like ****. I can say I might feel the same way if a doctor wanted to dump their beliefs/frustrations on me. Caring for patients would involve both a medical and psychological concern/consideration for a person. If you act like you are pushing your values on someone, I suppose it wouldn't meet that certain standard of caring for the other person.

 

I think however, Christians go in defensive at times because we are often not tolerated in creed. Not that this excuses such a defensive attitude, but it should provide a bit of understanding.

[jeff101]

My goal is not just to treat the body, as a missionary doctor I want to address the far more important state of people's souls. What use is it to have a healthy body and end up a wretch, with no joy or peace?

 

Just a quick question: Would you deny someone treatment if they refused to convert or didn't see the world as you do?

[paulos]

Ten lepers came to Jesus to be healed. After he healed them only one came back to thank him, the gentile.

 

Agape love, Christian selfless love, does not ask, but gives. Even the gospel is giving, not taking. To treat any patient is completely in character with love.

 

A better question for you might be, Jeff: Would you refuse to treat a patient who didn't have health care?

[Chris Pietraszko]

Jesus did not say, "I am one of many politically-correct paths", he said "I am the way, the truth and the life."

 

We cannot interpret the Bible to suit our own desire to be loved by others. Friendship with the world is enmity with God.

 

The pain of conversion brings the fruit of life, I went through it myself, being born a muslim... were it not for preaching and bold witness, I would have ended up in the gutter, miserable and empty, because that is where I was headed.

 

Christ came in my search, not as one of many viable alternatives, but with power and love and truth. I tried other religions, philosophies, pleasures, they could not fill the void.

 

My goal is not just to treat the body, as a missionary doctor I want to address the far more important state of people's souls. What use is it to have a healthy body and end up a wretch, with no joy or peace?

 

The missionary doctors I know are far more enlightened people, with a beauty that devotion to a cause higher than money or ego brings. No, they were not made into saints in their lifetime, no true saint will be crowned on the earth, here it is only the accusing finger, the snickering jeer, the legions of imps glowering and cowering from the shadows.

 

"Do not marvel if the world hates you, it hated me first.":rolleyes:

 

 

So you are up for evangalization? Thats cool, but you realize that is so illegal in Canada right? LOL - hahahaha. I wish it was possible, because as the Pope has said, North America is a Missionary Country now.

 

However, I get the impression you want to move to another country, that allows you to have the freedom to do there, what you cannot do here. But I think while you are here, your gonna have to suck it up bro. While I agree with all your theology - many people do not have the foundation or the principle to even contemplate it (they lack such conversion) which is between them and God .

 

Have you thought of entering into a religious order. I know of some religious orders that the brothers are also doctors. That would involve a Catholic Education and might get rid of some of these barriers. Just a thought. You seem bent on spreading the faith, and you seem to have zeal for it. Maybe you can do this by becoming a religious or a doctor of the soul and body?

[lostintime]

Wow, all this is confusing me, with so much scripture talk. Just curious, did you write your entire essay this way? Well to be fair, if you spoke this way to your patients, I think they would be confused as well.

[paulos]

Chris, your voice is like a light in this dark place.

Actually, I did do half of my MDiv at St. Mike's at UofT, but on a mission in 2005 I found my life partner, and she is really a wonderful blessing.

We are both converts from Islam, and we want to reach that group, knowing what despair and angst lies in their fold.

 

Your thoughts on preaching in NA are so true, even though technically we have freedom of speech, enemies of the cross will find any pretext to hang us. I know what it's like to be in their shoes, so I have patience, but sometimes I think, where's the crime in telling people God loves them, and wants to bring them to heaven?

[jeff101]

Ten lepers came to Jesus to be healed. After he healed them only one came back to thank him, the gentile.

 

Agape love, Christian selfless love, does not ask, but gives. Even the gospel is giving, not taking. To treat any patient is completely in character with love.

 

A better question for you might be, Jeff: Would you refuse to treat a patient who didn't have health care?

 

...no...i have treated patients over seas with no mention of money or reward. I consider that selfless. But from your posts it seems like you will treat patient in exchange for their conversion. That to me seem selfish.

[paulos]

Jesus said to the crowds that followed him, you follow me because of the bread you ate in the wilderness, but you do not come to me to have eternal life.

 

I ask nothing of patients and while on mission, not money, for sure. But the word of God is a fire burning in my chest, I will explode if I don't preach.

 

When I see the misery of a nation, I think, they don't need democracy or education, these are the second and third stories of a building which has for its foundation the love of God as shown on the cross. Until individual souls are freed, state corruption and poverty cannot be enduringly addressed.

[Chris Pietraszko]

Chris, your voice is like a light in this dark place.

Actually, I did do half of my MDiv at St. Mike's at UofT, but on a mission in 2005 I found my life partner, and she is really a wonderful blessing.

We are both converts from Islam, and we want to reach that group, knowing what despair and angst lies in their fold.

 

Your thoughts on preaching in NA are so true, even though technically we have freedom of speech, enemies of the cross will find any pretext to hang us. I know what it's like to be in their shoes, so I have patience, but sometimes I think, where's the crime in telling people God loves them, and wants to bring them to heaven?

 

 

Islam, wow that is quite the conversion. There is certainly no crime in telling people that. But sometimes we have to consider the most effective way to do it. Our culture is slighted and offended at any religious garbel which usually causes a repression or a sort of "oh no its a religious fanatic" type of reaction. Sometimes we have to take it from St. Francis who said, "Preach the Gospel and use words if necessary". The only time we can preach the gospel is if people are open to it.

 

Its funny - people get offended when we try to share something like our faith with them, when they don't see our intention. But we have to truly realize that God is the agent of conversion, not us. This is why I think the Catholic Church in Canada and the US has turned into an underground church. Where secrecy about our faith is what will allow us to spread it. It sounds insane, but I do believe conversion comes from subtlty. Think of your conversion, how did it take place? Who brought you to the doors of a Church?

 

I'm studying Philosophy (Thomstic) and I love it because it explains natural law, and pretty much everything we believe in logical terms. But I can't share all that information with people because they do not yet have the background. That is why I will switch what I said from swine to a tree that bares no fruit. Sometimes we just have to cut it out of our life and walk away. I feel bad for you, at least in my career, my job is to preach the gospel to the non-believers and I have an excuse of a collar. You on the other hand can lose your job for it. My only suggestion is to think of what is most effective to people. Sometimes a smile, a cross and a kind gesture can be the door opening to other people about conversion.

 

And certainly we need some Good Christian/Catholic doctors. Sorry this was rambling.

 

Edit:

That explode without preaching is a must if you are Christian. But perhaps you can channel it through action more than words. That is the biggest challenge to a Christian, but I often think of how quite and simple Christ was when he healed the blind man or the leper. He just healed them and told them to go in peace. But anyways, thats for North America, if you are going to another Country, they generally have more comm]on-sense there (i.e. Africa isn't full of radical individuals).

 

Anyways I'm tired and going to bed! Good luck everyone on getting in. Saving people's lives is a heroic job, keep up the good work/goals.

[jeff101]

I ask nothing of patients and while on mission, not money, for sure. But the word of God is a fire burning in my chest, I will explode if I don't preach.

 

... so the answer is yes? what if your patient didn't want to hear your message of god? would you then move on to the next who would listen?

 

I have been to countries like this before were "missionaries" will help the locals only if they convert. If you are a doctor you are charged with helping the sick. Or else you are merely perpetuating the intolerance your claim U of T has shown towards you.

[Chris Pietraszko]

... so the answer is yes? what if your patient didn't want to hear your message of god? would you then move on to the next who would listen?

 

I have been to countries like this before were "missionaries" will help the locals only if they convert. If you are a doctor you are charged with helping the sick. Or else you are merely perpetuating the intolerance your claim U of T has shown towards you.

 

Yeah, I'm not in favour of that, and that is actually a contradiction to a Christian mentality. Healing should be both free, because all human beings have a certain and universal right to life, which is not contigent on creed.

 

Christ certainly never said anything like that when he healed lepers and so forth. Again, the faithful need to realize that conversion occurs with love. If we are speaking about love, we should probably manifest it so they'll know what the heck we are talking about.

[paulos]

Freely you have received, freely, freely give... the story of the lepers meant to show that the love of God is so great that we are compelled to give even if there is no thanks, or interest in Jesus, it is a function of love.

 

God rains on the good and on the wicked

[dumdedum]

...But the word of God is a fire burning in my chest, I will explode if I don't preach...

 

hey paulos

 

i think this may be why the adcom is wary of accepting you into their medical program, and may also be the reason for your referee stating that they feel you may have problems getting along with some patients.

 

First off, i think it's great you're so devout to your faith. It seems to me all you want to do is to share the joy that your faith has brought to you with others. And that's okay. This is the type of attitude that would be perfect for missionary work.

 

But...what we're talking about here is medicine. And the reality of practicing medicine in our society. And within the boundaries of medicine, there is not that much room (if any) for religion. We live in a secular society made up of potential patients from different religions. And even within one type of religion there will be members whose devotion varies in scale.

 

It might be hard for you to communicate with your patients when your faith constantly pops up in your practice. For your patients who are not as devout as you or of a different religion, they may be more conservative about what they reveal to you and what they want out of their health care. They wouldn't want to be judged by their doctor. This would definitely be a problem when forming a good and trusting doctor-patient relationship and allowing your patients to make informed and unbiased choices about their healthcare (patient autonomy).

 

This is just my personal opinion on why your particular attitude about your religion might have raised a flag in your application. I hope I have not offended anyone in anyway because that is not my intention at all. Just trying to give a different perspective on things

 

best of luck in your goals.

[paulos]

When I was a kid, the waiting room in my doctor's office had some kid's bible books. Nowadays you don't see them around much.

 

I was not Christian at the time, but I found the books interesting and would surely have welcomed a nice paternalistic talk from the doc about God and Jesus and the cross.

 

There are many unreached groups of people who never get to hear about salvation once... to put limits on anyone on when and how they may or may not speak about God is the same crime the Pharisees committed against the apostles.

 

They beat them and said, "Didn't we tell you not to preach in this name?"

 

The servants of God said, "Judge for yourselves whether it is better to listen men or to God."

 

My question then is: To what authority do we bow?

 

God commands us to preach, in season and out of season.

 

God-haters say, "Don't talk about God here," and they seem to think there's a reason why this must be so.

 

But why would you deny someone the chance to find out the way to heaven? That is the real sin.

[Toroharo]

Paulos, why do you want to study medicine when you really want to preach? I can feel the polarisation of sentiments across the various threads you started.

 

It's getting uncomfortable just by reading them...

[pleura87]

Paulos, do you believe that God’s plan for you is to preach His word or to practice medicine? I understand you can be capable of both, but realistically in medicine, you would have to draw a dotted line between the two since you would face day-to-day issues that may test your faith – everyday we are tested, however, our results primarily affect ourselves...obviously, this is not the case in medicine.

 

As a Christian, I feel I am somewhat prepared for this because I know that God understands where my heart is and that my happiness may not be someone else’s. If not, I highly doubt that there would be any Catholic family practitioners – can you imagine how many scrips of birth control they have to write?

 

But seriously dude, you are bound to make your patients uncomfortable if you sing a hymn with every prescription you give. It makes me uncomfortable (and annoyed) when my cousin, a minister, preaches with almost every conversation – it comes across as very pushy and ignorant (at least he realized what he was doing and now says the most random biblical quotes just to bug you).

 

And U of T not giving you a chance is what it so humorous about applying to med school cuz it’s so unpredictable! I know sooo many ppl who have 3.8+ GPAs and excellent credentials, yet nothing after two or more tries. If I were you, I would probably ask "how do you get back into med school once you drop out?"

 

It's unfortunate that we now live a world where we question if our faith is indirectly holding us back; however it is quite a broad assumption to make on U of T unless one can exhibit numerous cases relevant to yours. <http://www.molecularstation.com/forum/medical-school/1103-racial-discrimination-university-toronto-medical-school.html <---This person's case on "Racial Discrimination at University of Toronto Medical School" is not really valid becuz from what they state, it is more like there is a high number of children of Alumni getting accepted rather than a high number of Jewish students. And if their Alumni parents are Jewish, than most likely so are their children.

 

 

All the best:)

[immernoch]

If I was a patient of a different faith or of convicted secularity (which I suppose can also be seen as a faith) I would feel uncomfortable opening up to the physician due to judgemental attitudes of me being a lost lamb gone astray.

 

I would feel uncomfortable telling them I had unprotected sex and hence would like to get an STD scan.

 

I would feel judged asking to get a prescription of birth control with my partner.

 

I would feel judged telling them I am of a high risk group due to my sexual leanings (if I was not hetero).

 

 

Please let us not forget the PATIENT in the profession of medicine. I for one plan on having a patient-centered practice. I would never hold such a strong paternalistic view as displayed here on this thread at times.

[kaymcee]

I was going to post a message entitled, "Why I hope paulos never sees a patient," but then I decided he'd best use his time to read the following books (or at least their synopses):

 

Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion

Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation

Christopher Hitchens' God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

[bay]

I once heard the Dean of U of T Medicine mention evolution. Balderdash!

[paulos]

Jesus was a healer, a teacher, a social worker, etc.

 

It is great to be a priest but I am married, and furthermore, I am going to be a missionary to muslims, which draws little if any support, meaning I will have to be self-sufficient (tentmaking).

 

One may be both a preacher and a healer.

 

As to evolution, it is not contraindicated by the Catholic church, and many excellent profs profess faith.

 

If it were not for preaching, I would never have heard the Gospel, that God loves us. If I had never heard the Gospel, I would never have invited Christ into my heart, believing that he paid for our sins on the cross with his blood, then rose from the dead after three days. If I had never believed in Jesus, then I would surely have followed my lusts. If I had followed my stomach and my flesh, I would surely have missed all the peace, love and joy which the Holy Spirit provides me anew every day.

 

Nobody can stop the word of God, it is like rain, which brings fruits from the earth... it will go on and on, even when we are dust, and our memories are long-forgotten. Both great and small, nothing will remain but the Word, which is eternal.

 

Don't fight against the bearers of Good News, you would be found to be fighting against God Himself.

 

If you believe it is wrong to preach and you call yourself a Christan, please show me one verse where Jesus or His followers said, "Do not preach at work, or school, or in Canada," etc.

 

In fact, Jesus died as did His true believers, for preaching. It is not a crime, nor a sin, but a basic duty of those who know about the light to try to point it out to those in the dark.

 

God loves you. Money cannot satisfy, nor position, nor power. The smartest man in history, King Solomon, said, "Vanity! All is vanity... the duty of man is to obey God.":rolleyes:

[bustylegs]

Hey Paulos:

 

I was wondering if you could explain why you are exploring the possibility of getting into medicine via the military route (your thread in another section of this forum).

 

Is it to save money? If that is the case, then it would contradict your belief of "not doing it for money".

 

Is it to do missionary work abroad? If that is the case, how do you explain the remote possibility of having to hurt people to achieve your goal?

[paulos]

Actually, my plan is to get overseas asap, as the people are greatly in need of the Gospel... if I graduate debt-free, it's that much easier, but now that I think about it, money is not a good reason, and I have not made any commitments to military training.

[HannaLee]

I consider myself to be a faithful catholic, and I do feel as though Jesus plays a significant role in regards to my everyday decisions.

However, as others have mentioned, there is a difference between faith and preaching to others. As a physician, you would not be in a position to profess your particular faith, or your degree of faithfulness to patients. It is different to seek help from a preacher/minister/pastor/father than it is to seek the counsel of a physician. If a patient were to come in having contracted an STD through casual sex, a physician can counsel them on safe sex practices however cannot pass judgement on their lifestyle.

 

Religion must be separated from your ability to practice medicine. It does not have to be separated from the reasons as to why you have been chosen to do medicine, but it should be kept separate from HOW you practice medicine (similar to politics and religion).

 

Doctors tend to be in a position of relative power in their communities. If you intend to do missionary work with muslims, the sentiments of past colonial intents may be of concern to the muslim community you wish the help. Would you be there to treat the patients, or convert them the Christian practices? If a person chooses to take in the word of God it should be from a place within their own consciousness, not an exchange to merely seek out medical services. I am not implying that this is your intent, however such a concern on the behalf of the people may not be totally unwarranted.

 

Consider Jehovah's witness...they could arguably be more religious than either you or I because their faith in God's healing results in their refusal of most medical services. If they said to you that to practice medicine is against your faith in God's love and healing, I'm sure it would be equally offensive.

 

Religion and faith are different for different people. For me, my faith is a very private relationship with God. I always carry a rosary, and say quiet prayers in my head for simple things such as the nice weather.

I know people who do not attend regular church services, however lead such pure and faithful lives that they are among the most christian people I know. In contrast, there are many people who attend weekly mass for the sake of 'attendance'. The depth of one's faith isn't for the purpose of preaching to others to demonstrate you are a 'better' Christian than your neighbour. Such a decision will ultimately be made by Jesus alone.

[weirdity]

I've been writing only to say what HannaLee has already said rather well.

 

But I can see how in a person's mind, one's faith supercedes all. But even according to that faith, I'm not sure how your words are justified, Paulos.

 

Jesus was a pauper by choice, I believe.

 

And in any case, I never understood preaching or evangelizing - Jesus spoke to people who came to Him, talked to those who wanted to listen to Him, and served all. He gave to those what belonged to them, coins to the Caesar, dignity to the oppressed, life to those on the verge of living.

 

I don't remember Jesus griping about not getting accepted by the Pharisees into their order. In fact, I don't remember Him ever applying, or considering joining the Zealots to support His career or really doing anything except living a life that served all and judged none. He didn't waste time on arguing prejudice, or building cultures that often divide the truth that should span across. He didn't dwell on the actions of others. He spoke to what each of us can do for each other.

 

One of the smartest people I ever met said that if you put Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha together in the same room, they'd probably get along famous. But put their followers in the same room and they'd kill each other. I'm thinking its because the former wouldn't have alot to say or convince each other of while the later would have nothing less than everything.

 

Reciting scripture, pushing a particular way of seeing the life within lives seems to me petty and small compared to the working towards the universal truth each prophet testifies - that noble and selfless love that can only be found being each other's keeper. If you so love God, you would work towards serving Him in anyway possible, not complaining that you're not getting the chances you - and only you - think you need.

 

Do it for God, you say. May we all honour our faith and our beliefs. May we all walk our own talk.

[docbill]

Actually, my plan is to get overseas asap, as the people are greatly in need of the Gospel... if I graduate debt-free, it's that much easier, but now that I think about it, money is not a good reason, and I have not made any commitments to military training.

 

WOW!!! is probably the most I should say. I spend 3 min reading this thread.. and I really wish Jesus can give me that 3 min back.... now 5 min since I replied.

 

If you started every sentence with Jesus said.. or did .. or was...in your essay that is most likely why you got rejected.

 

The fact that you did start medical school and drop out is only a BIG RED FLAG FOR ADMISSION. With people with great qualifications applying... some with even PhDs competing for the spots.. I would stop playing the blame game.

 

Side note: Religion belongs inside your home and your head.. and doesn't involve preaching to me... I kindly say no thank you and walk away. I am sorry you got sucked into this brainwashing business. Did I read this right, you converted from Islam??!!!?? WOW

 

However, I will be productive and suggest DO degree for you. They are mostly catholic, and really good at believing in spirtual stuff and all that praying with your patient stuff.