paulos Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 What's with UofT anyway? I have applied four times: GPA 3.92, MCAT 10/10/11 R, tons of research, 2 papers published, tons of volunteering (Salvation Army, Meals-on-Wheels, prison visitations, hospitals, etc, etc.)... I have never been invited to interview, and three of four times, they never even bothered to send me a rejection letter! The only thing I can think of is they hate Jesus, because I do mention him as my inspiration to serve in medicine. Even though it's unethical and illegal for them to show bias against religion, they always seem to do so... Thank God, yes, for what we have. Yet you may be surprised to learn that I was rejected outright by two schools specifically on the point of religion. When I asked the admin why I had not even been waitlisted at one school, they mentioned something about faith which one of my referees wrote... I put a complaint in with the human rights commission, and it was accepted, but a lawyer friend advised me to drop the case, as it would surely get me blacklisted. So those of you who love God, go in with both eyes open, it's not all roses, but you will surely be wrestling with the beast, more so than in many other professions because of the profusity of mammon-worshippers. By way of encouragement, I'd say carry your cross, don't do it for the money, just love people and you won't burn out or become addicted to substances like 50% of doctors do. I found Jesus in med school, then dropped out to learn more and to preach... now I can't get back in (over 20 applications later), even though I have higher marks, more experience/maturity, simply because I confess Jesus as Lord. As He Himself said, "Blessed are you when all men hate you and cast out your name as evil for my name's sake...":rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic_Kitten85 Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Hi....are you sure Uoft is against Jesus???? In medicine, like in no other profession, one has to be tolerant to different world views and religions since you're going to see all kinds of people as your patients...I can tell you for a fact that I mentioned specifically in my essay that I sing in a church choir...true, I did not specify whether I am Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant and I did not put the fact that I am Christian in the first sentence of my essay, but Im sure it was pretty obvious from it...And I got an interview at Uoft and any other school that I was qualified for based on marks and MCAT....not to boast or anything. I am saying this just to testify that I do not believe that people in Uoft or any other medschool are Jesus haters. Have you thought that maybe God does not want you to study at uoft or perhaps does not want you to become a doctor at this point in your life but somebody else if it has taken you soo many times to apply and with still no avail? I believe everything happens for a reason...and if you believe in God, im sure you do to.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clkt Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Don't take this the wrong way, paulos, but there is a difference between having some sort of faith and being extremely religious. If your essay is like your post, ie preaching about God every other sentence, then it would be understandable if your application does not come across well with the admissions people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylem29 Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 Yes, I can understand why as well. Most interviewers I came across expressed to me their displeasure of physicians who do not separate their religious beliefs from their professional duties... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luckyducky Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 I highly doubt UofT has a bias against people with religious beliefs. In fact considering Toronto as a city I'd say that religious tolerance is almost a must. This may be the very reason why you have not gotten an interview to UofT. I admire you for your faith, but remember that there is a time and place for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 St. Paul said, "Preach in season and out of season". How much of love is too much, how much of Jesus is too much, how much of truth is too much? COME INTO THE LIGHT. You cannot strip away God from reality by compartmentalizing it into little chunks like perhaps God doesn't matter in school, at work, in medicine, or in law, etc. Who are you to say when it is right or wrong to share God's wonderful gift? As to your thoughts that I was too preachy in my essay, I said one thing only, that Jesus was my inspiration for studying medicine. As to being in a choir, that is not offensive to God-haters, that is precisely the kind of thing they love, a form of religion with no POWER. It is the NAME OF JESUS that offends, if you don't believe me, try mentioning him sometime, if you're not too much of a hypocrite. Remember what the Lord said, "Whoever is ashamed of me before men, I will be ashamed of him before the angels and before the Father in heaven." If you keep trying to please 'society', well my friend, you're on the broad path that leads to hell. I have been told by 2 med schools in Canada that they rejected me because of my faith, which is against the law, and unethical. I was not only qualified, but before coming to Christ, I was accepted at 2 schools, and even studied meds until second year. But it was then that God showed me that I was on the broad path, so I started reading the Bible, and realized I needed time to learn about more important things than showing off my brains and getting a nice cushy job. Now I'm back to become a missionary, not for money, like most med keeners. Remember, you cannot serve two masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerade Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 I would reject your application on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted May 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 If you rejected an application based on someone's religious views, race, gender, etc., you would end up in court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewelLeigh Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 As a side note - can one of the mods please take this section of the thread and make it into it's own thread? Sorry for the sidetrack... (Edit: someone beat me to it - thanks Mods ) Yes, it is against the law to discriminate against someone for religious views. But in the context of medicine in Canada, if an adcom feels that someone cannot perform the duties of a physician because of their faith or any other reason, of course they would reject the applicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachy Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 As a side note - can one of the mods please take this section of the thread and make it into it's own thread? Sorry for the sidetrack...Yes, please don't add posts onto the FAQ thread unless they are relevant to that thread. There are lots of Christian medical students at U of T, many of whom are involved with the Medical Christian Fellowship. I think it's totally unreasonable to claim that U of T discriminates against applicants based on religion. Perhaps there are simpler and less sinister reasons why you were rejected, like not having a well-written essay, not responding specifically to the questions asked, not having glowing or appropriate reference letters, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewelLeigh Posted May 13, 2007 Report Share Posted May 13, 2007 There is a similar one in the Ottawa forum peachy, if you could do the same there, it'd be appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
immernoch Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 I heard from a friend of mine that there are certain religion inspired medical topics which are considered red flags. One obvious one is abortion. If you were very active in religious work in campaigns which threaten to kill doctors who perform abortions (and trust me there are many), then it may be a huge flag against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 um... just out of curiosity... do you think the fact that you were in med school then dropped out has any bearing on your rejections from these schools? I think that schools will be very weary of investing any more time in you if you've already dropped out once. I was also under the impression that schools do not tell you why you've been rejected... how did you manage to get them to reply AND mention religion as the reason? P.S. don't take UofT rejections too harshly... your stats are good, but many people with better stats have been turned down. Good Luck though! try not to be so closed minded about the reasons for rejection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katerade Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 maybe they see that you only want to go into medicine to spread your religious views ... its pretty aparent from your posts, its also probably aparent in your letters. maybe if you stop quoting scripture in your letter you'll get a shot. god forbid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pietraszko Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 What's with UofT anyway? I have applied four times: GPA 3.92, MCAT 10/10/11 R, tons of research, 2 papers published, tons of volunteering (Salvation Army, Meals-on-Wheels, prison visitations, hospitals, etc, etc.)... I have never been invited to interview, and three of four times, they never even bothered to send me a rejection letter!The only thing I can think of is they hate Jesus, because I do mention him as my inspiration to serve in medicine. Even though it's unethical and illegal for them to show bias against religion, they always seem to do so... Thank God, yes, for what we have. Yet you may be surprised to learn that I was rejected outright by two schools specifically on the point of religion. When I asked the admin why I had not even been waitlisted at one school, they mentioned something about faith which one of my referees wrote... I put a complaint in with the human rights commission, and it was accepted, but a lawyer friend advised me to drop the case, as it would surely get me blacklisted. So those of you who love God, go in with both eyes open, it's not all roses, but you will surely be wrestling with the beast, more so than in many other professions because of the profusity of mammon-worshippers. By way of encouragement, I'd say carry your cross, don't do it for the money, just love people and you won't burn out or become addicted to substances like 50% of doctors do. I found Jesus in med school, then dropped out to learn more and to preach... now I can't get back in (over 20 applications later), even though I have higher marks, more experience/maturity, simply because I confess Jesus as Lord. As He Himself said, "Blessed are you when all men hate you and cast out your name as evil for my name's sake...":rolleyes: Hey Bro, I'm a Catholic seminarian, and friends with some ppl who are going into medical school as well. I think it is great that you want to be a missionary and I am so very sorry that they have squashed your dream for the time being . One of the things I have realized is that our culture is not particularily Christian anymore, which makes a career quite incompatible with our faith. In fact we cannot help but live a life of dualism almost, and promote some of the most immoral crimes through medicine. I think there is nothing wrong with what you believe, and I think it is criminal that it isn't acceptable to promote your faith and your values to help others. But I would suggest a moderation of how you go about speaking of your values. Simply because most of these administrators view Catholic values as intolerant, and hateful, which we believe to be qutie the opposite of course. I'm not one for tolerance of a culture of death, but before I can make changes I have to first get into the system - you know? Sometimes we have to be a bit subtle with our values - which is not a contradiction in our faith, nor a passive type of attitude. It is rather not throwing good things to "swine" if you get what I'm saying . Best of luck though bud, and I certainly understand your frustration. I just hope that you understand, what I'm saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pietraszko Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 I heard from a friend of mine that there are certain religion inspired medical topics which are considered red flags. One obvious one is abortion. If you were very active in religious work in campaigns which threaten to kill doctors who perform abortions (and trust me there are many), then it may be a huge flag against you. It is a contradiction to want to save life by threatening to take it away. These fanatics don't usually represent catholic values. Catholic Church believes our faith and our reason should be compatible meaning no one should be so stupid. Usually people who do threaten, cannot figure out how to speak of their morality in a logical, and reasonable manner, and thus turn to violence and frustration because they really do not understand the philosophy or ethical questions surronding such a moral stance. Catholics believe that abortion is wrong by "natural reasoning" not a "faith-based standard" which in my mind is quite reasonable. I think this is the area that needs to be discussed, b/c faith is a grey area, reason is not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeguy Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 googled topic on religious / racial discrimination at UofT and I found this interesting forum topic: http://www.molecularstation.com/forum/medical-school/1103-racial-discrimination-university-toronto-medical-school.html if you want it enough, you may want to change your religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strider2004 Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 It is likely that you were rejected because you had previously dropped out of medicine. If you had asked to take some time off, then your med school likely would have been okay with that. However, to completely drop out after so much was invested into you (it likely costs about $55,000/yr to train a medical student - this is about what the military pays medical schools to train through the military program), med schools would probably be shy to accept you again. They may have mentioned religion in their reasons for the rejection but it was more likely to be in the form of "this applicant previously left medical school to pursue religion". The word 'religion' could just as easily be replaced by 'world peace', 'the military', 'finance', 'research'. It's the act of officially quitting med school that worried the adcoms, not your religious views. The application form specifically asks you if had previously been in medical school. This button likely is a red flag on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Wow, the link http://www.molecularstation.com/foru...al-school.html seems to confirm my suspicions, to the t. It seems to be exactly the case with Ontario med schools. Note that I am not anti-semitic, I was baptized in a Messianic Jewish synagogue, and the fellow who claims UofT is racist and anti-Christian is also Jewish. Anyway, Chris, thanks for your insight, it really shed some valuable light on the thread, it is indeed a case of pearls, and I have, in fact, this year toned down my stance quite a bit, having gone through so many discriminations thus far. I'll bet that this year, it may just make the difference, but what a sad commentary on the sick state of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 It is rather not throwing good things to "swine" if you get what I'm saying .. How very humble of you to say that. I'm sure that conveying your deep disdain for the non-Christians on the adcom will bode well for your success as an applicant. I guess the "swine" can see right through your arrogant and condescending nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clkt Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Wow, the link http://www.molecularstation.com/foru...al-school.html seems to confirm my suspicions, to the t.It seems to be exactly the case with Ontario med schools. Note that I am not anti-semitic, I was baptized in a Messianic Jewish synagogue, and the fellow who claims UofT is racist and anti-Christian is also Jewish. Anyway, Chris, thanks for your insight, it really shed some valuable light on the thread, it is indeed a case of pearls, and I have, in fact, this year toned down my stance quite a bit, having gone through so many discriminations thus far. I'll bet that this year, it may just make the difference, but what a sad commentary on the sick state of the profession. That thread is ridiculous. It is just one person ranting about how people with good academic records don't get into their first choice residencies. And I love how he pulls the race card on anything he can get his hands on. Isn't it so convenient to blame one's failures on everything but their own incompetency... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Pietraszko Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 How very humble of you to say that. I'm sure that conveying your deep disdain for the non-Christians on the adcom will bode well for your success as an applicant. I guess the "swine" can see right through your arrogant and condescending nature. I'm sorry you read my post as such. I do believe that all humans are equal in dignty. By swine I am not directing my comment to an actual person but an attitude that is closed. You sir are not swine, but beurocratic groups who only let in "like-minded individuals" is like talking to a brick wall. The swine in this category would be such an attitude. I sir do not believe that people are the sum of their beliefs, but I do believe that people shouldn't be threatened by other faiths. I will qualify that statement however, I do believe the faithful should respect the non-faithful/non-religious. And this respect finds difference where contempt knows only indifference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 ok i read that link, and it raised a bit of an eyebrow... first of all, i will agree that i have heard of a few 'inside connections' getting people into UofT... that dissapointed me, but also made me feel a bit better about not getting into UofT... if these stories are true, who wants to go to school with people like that anyways? Having said that, i would be a bit cautious about believing what a person on a random message board (with only 1 post to their name) says about anything. I'd be interested in seeing some sort of documentation of thier claims: how many are children of alumni? what basis is there for the jew/non-jew claim of discrimination? my problem with what you are saying paulos, is that you believe you've been rejected because you are christian. I liken this to many posts i've seen on these boards saying "will they reject me if i'm gay?" the answer to which was: 'no, not because you're gay'. then the response was "well what if i'm flamingly blatantly in your face queer? they shouldn't discriminate right??" to which i think you need to realize: if you rub them the wrong way, they will not take you! regardless of whether you belong to any sort of majority or minority that is in one way or another opressed. a doctor needs to put patients at ease, not irritate them with whatever lifestyle choices they've made. Can you imagine yourself talking to an oncologist who was some other religion than your own, who walks in and tells you "you've got terminal cancer and [insert religious figure] gave it to you because you're not [insert religion]". I understand your frustration with having to be politically correct and almost appologetic about one's religion (i personally HATE it when people say happy holidays! instead of merry christmas) but you have to realize that in a profession such as medicine, you are dealing with people who are not JUST christian, and who believe just as strongly as you do that their religion is the right one. They are coming to you for medical aid. not a sermon. When I was a child, one of my mother's co-worker's children was on her death bed and we went to visit her. For some reason, she took a strong liking to me (she was in her 30s and had just had a miscariage). She and her family were hindu or some flavour of indian religion (sorry if this sounds rude, but i can't remember what their religion was exactly...) and they EXPLICITLY asked me if I thought she should convert to Christianity for salvation (me being like a 10 year old boy). My answer was that if she had a pure and clean heart, God will accept her into His arms. She need not go through the agony of changing her religion and the beliefs she's held for her entire life WHILE dealing with death at her doorstep. She died a few days later. There are so many minor variations on christianity (and many believers don't even know what these differences are). Will God banish you to hell if you were born Roman Catholic but it turns out that the Orthodox guys had it right? Will God welcome a devout christian who is also a murderer, a rapist and a theif over a Jew or a Hindu or a whatever else who has lived their life in the spirit of the christian faith but has not officially named themselves as such? I think people get caught up in names and 'formalities' too much and don't look at the underlying reasons for the teachings of a religion. it isn't a battle to convert as many people as you can to your denomination. It's about making people into BETTER HUMAN BEINGS, regardless of what religion they claim to belong to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 I liken this to many posts i've seen on these boards saying "will they reject me if i'm gay?" the answer to which was: 'no, not because you're gay'. then the response was "well what if i'm flamingly blatantly in your face queer? they shouldn't discriminate right??" to which i think you need to realize: if you rub them the wrong way, they will not take you! regardless of whether you belong to any sort of majority or minority that is in one way or another opressed. a doctor needs to put patients at ease, not irritate them with whatever lifestyle choices they've made. Good analogy, I think the situation is very similar across those 2 cases indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulos Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 Jesus did not say, "I am one of many politically-correct paths", he said "I am the way, the truth and the life." We cannot interpret the Bible to suit our own desire to be loved by others. Friendship with the world is enmity with God. The pain of conversion brings the fruit of life, I went through it myself, being born a muslim... were it not for preaching and bold witness, I would have ended up in the gutter, miserable and empty, because that is where I was headed. Christ came in my search, not as one of many viable alternatives, but with power and love and truth. I tried other religions, philosophies, pleasures, they could not fill the void. My goal is not just to treat the body, as a missionary doctor I want to address the far more important state of people's souls. What use is it to have a healthy body and end up a wretch, with no joy or peace? The missionary doctors I know are far more enlightened people, with a beauty that devotion to a cause higher than money or ego brings. No, they were not made into saints in their lifetime, no true saint will be crowned on the earth, here it is only the accusing finger, the snickering jeer, the legions of imps glowering and cowering from the shadows. "Do not marvel if the world hates you, it hated me first.":rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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