Mitch Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 I'm curious for all the mothers and fathers in meds, would a shift in hours help things at all? I know medical schedules tend to start REALLY early, and I know that my mom would have never been able to cope if her job had started so early. Also, are long hours always a problem, or is it just the call schedule that makes things tough? I mean, on a regular clinic day, is the schedule too long to be "family friendly"? Thanks for all feedback! In my experience and my DH's experience, both the long hours and the call schedule were problematic when he was a resident. The hours now that he is in practice are very reasonable. However, he DOES priorize his family, and organizes his clinics to reflect that. Of course, as a result, he doesn't make as much $ as he would if he worked his a** off. Having less money, but more daddy, was a choice we made. The call schedule now is still disruptive, but again, it's not nearly as terrible as when he was a resident. Further, most of the other surgeons in his call group also have families......none appreciated the 1 in 4 call they had, so they lobbied the administration and health region for another surgical position in their location. It took some effort, but they made it happen. The 1 in 5 is much better. But, having specific shifts would be even better! However, we didn't have kids when he was in med school or the first few years of residency, so I'm not sure what that would have been like. I assume I'll find out when (?if) I get accepted!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rock Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hi Mitch, How old are you children? Assuming you went into medical school right now, how much direct care are they in need of? Just curious, since you said you have kids. In the interest of providing another argument to this great discussion, I wonder about the difference in parenting duties required by newborns/infants--as in Maya's case--versus with toddlers/early years. How much of the family-unfriendly atmosphere in medical training is due to a biological need for care and how much is owing to the desire to be with the children as they grow? (Most) everyone would love to be home with their children and raise them well, but in reality there are a lot of people out there in worse off situations that have to work similarly long hours and leave their kids in daycares that they can barely afford. Is the medical system really in dire need of change to accommodate medical families and their education that it should be considered before these families? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Cave Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Maybe I'm naive but I think you be hard pressed to find many other people working 100-hour weeks. Kids need love and attention, 100-hour weeks doesn't leave much time for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rock Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 True, most jobs are not 100-hours/week, and when they are they tend to be professional jobs (e.g. articling lawyer). However, 100 hours is also the extreme for medicine. Nonetheless, there are a number of people who work two jobs and are pushed into the 60 - 80 hour week out of necessity, and once commuting time is taken into account, their time away from home routinely matches that of a 3rd year clerk or resident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 My kids are now 7, 5, and 3. If I get in first time, they will be 9, 7, and 6 when I start. In my experience, the baby and toddler years are incredibly physically taxing, compared to now. They don't sleep much, they require an enormous amount of care, they only want to be with you (Mom and Dad are their whole world), and it's very difficult, particularly as a woman I expect (can't speak for men, since I'm not one! ). I imagine during medical training years (school and residency) that this would be the peak of the clash between the need and desire to be with your kids, and the requirements of the profession, since this in many ways in the most intense time for both medicine and parenting. Yet, the biological and sociological reality of childbearing is that it will likely happen somewhere during those years. Physically, it is easier when the kids are older, but emotionally and in terms of stress, not! There is more "time" available when the kids go to school, absolutely. That time is between 9 am and 3 pm. After that, even though I might not be changing diapers and singing Ring Around the Rosey anymore, I'm shuttling kids to and from activities, helping with homework (yes, in Grade 1), organizing everything from pickups and dropoffs to dentist appointments to playdates, to managing fears about bullies, bad guys, spiders, and not being good enough to play soccer, to having impromptu discussions about death, drugs (yes, at age 5), war, and why it's not ok to say you hate your sister even if she took the last popsicle. Sounds small, but trust me, these are not really things you can leave to the sitter ALL of the time, and I'm sure other parents on this board will agree. If I came home at 5:30 every day, it would be manageable, but not if I'm working 80+ hours/week. I also suspect that teens need you in an even bigger way, given what my firends and family have told them. I will always remember my FP having to run out of her clinic when the school called to say her teen daughter had fainted (the start of anorexia). She left 20 patients sitting in her waiting room. I don't know if she could have done that as a resident. And I'm sure she wouldn't have been able to do her residency part time during the 8 months her daughter needed treament! I know there are other professions that require huge numbers of hours, and I know there are parents who have to work 2-3 jobs just to make ends meet. Personally, I don't think that's right, and I do believe kids, and eventually society as a whole, suffers as a result. But, yes, I do think medicine is in dire need of change to support families, at every stage. There are physicians leaving medicine in surprisingly large numbers because of the issue. We already have a physician shortage as it is. Ones who stay often end up bitter, resentful.....or worse. I've already mentioned the inflated divorce rate, rate of addictions, major depression, and even suicide amongst physicians (I can find stats somewhere....the provincial medical association publishes them in the support article they provide to medical spouses). It doesn't HAVE to be this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Rock Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Hmmm, that's well put. It's also part of the reason why my wife and I decided to have kids while I'm in medical school. Right now we debate about when the best time to have a second one is. 3rd year sounds like a bad idea, but maybe the end of 3rd is a good compromise (depending on the rotation schedule I get). There is certainly no ideal time when we'll never be busy and have all the time in the world, but there may be a best time. We took the approach that if they're around the entire time, then that's what life will be like, and that's that. Maybe that's a bad idea, time will tell. One plus to having a second kid while in school means that my wife can take a maternity leave from her job, which is a HUGE HUGE HUGE (I can't emphasize HUGE enough) advantage for our family. Although I don't like to include an economics aspect in a debate about social/emotional needs, it requires some consideration. Changes to the training system will undoubtedly require more money, such as paying another resident to make up the hours that the hospital systems rely on residents to staff. This money comes from taxpayers, and it should be directed to people that need it the most. But the squeaky wheels get the grease and people in our positions have the capacity through education, money, and resources to squeak louder. There is no doubt that the system needs fixing, because while it may not be broke, too many people who come out are. But using parenthood as a mandate to do so may be inequitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
never too late Posted July 25, 2007 Report Share Posted July 25, 2007 Thank you Mitch for all your info. Having children a little older I wanted to throw my position into the mix. My children are 8 & 11 and when I get in (on the first try ~ always remain positive), they will be 10 & 13. WOW!!! For me, I am a very big part of their life & play a very active role in their schooling (by choice), so I already feel guilty when they want me to go on a class field trip & I can't bec of my classes. However, I know by the time my youngest is 10, this will ease off a bit (I hope). And from what I hear, by the time kids hit their teens, they want nothing to do with their parents! However, by the time I am in 3rd yr, my kids will be in those critical teen years where they are going to need a very mindful & consistent parent. I hope I will be able to be both ~ a parent who is there & an excellent medical student. I am making this choice for me in many ways, but also for my family. However, my kids will not really reap the rewards until they are almost grown. So in the back of my mind, I am very concerned about the overall well-being of my children, due to the fact that I want to be a doctor. My priority is being a mom, as this is the choice I made first & medicine came second. Unfortunately, it is a profession where I think, you do have to choose to do one better than the other due to the 'system' presently in place. It would definitely be nice to see changes put forth that would allow the profession/med student to be more family friendly. But like everything, it all starts at the top. It would be good for those of us concerned, to effect change once we are in positions to be able to do so. [As a side note, the news last night just stated that most break-ins occur from 3-6pm and are done by teenage boys. Regardless of profession, most parents are working & this is when the kids are alone.] With 2 parents, as a man, having children in med school is a great idea bec that initial year is a big responsibility for the mother (esp if breastfeeding) & then if you can find really good care or your wife chooses to stay home, you can still spend some time with your children. And by the time they are older and want to do things & old enough to enjoy vacations, etc. you will be able to have a lifestyle. Also, it is a lot easier to be broke when children are younger. As they get older, it is just plain painful! Plus, take note those with toddlers, all those issues that Mitch mentioned: drugs, war, homosexuality, bullying, etc. they all start younger than you would ever imagine & you (as their parent) want to be there to answer those questions for them, not the babysitter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr nomis Posted July 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2007 There is no doubt that the system needs fixing, because while it may not be broke, too many people who come out are. D-rock you are so clever, no wonder I love you so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superking25 Posted August 8, 2007 Report Share Posted August 8, 2007 Let's stir up some more controversy! I'm on Devari's side! Arguments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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