Mom Realizes she Can't Hack Med School & Raising Children at the same time

[umza]

I too have sat on adcom for a session and apps with opinions as strong as those being shoved about on here are definitely red flags.

 

 

Very nice post, mei, you got to the heart of the matter nicely.

You would make a very nice family doc.

[never too late]

I must say that I am a bit disappointed reading this thread as many posters seem very anti-women & children. I do understand what the opinions are as I have read all the posts, but some are so uncompassionate. As far as the avr age of women giving birth for the first time, I was several years under that age the first time & a year under that the second time & presently, I feel that I should have had them sooner in my life. In my youngest son's class I am by far the youngest mom in there by at least 7 years & most, if not all of the moms wished they had had children sooner. (Some are older moms due to the fact they had trouble conceiving due to the fact that they waited so long - past the 28 yrs). It is important for men to realize, that women, unlike yourselves, cannot continue having perfectly healthy children well into their 80s.

 

Secondly, is it not OK for Maya to voice how she is feeling? (for the men out there...) she is just finishing her 1st trimester, when tiredness prevails & mood swings are common, along with her present predicament in med school (according to Ian). She has the right to feel the way she is feeling & it is OK! Society tells all us women that we can have anything we want, including a career (equal to that of men) and a family too. However, the reality is quite different. (Men please take note...) the majority of the time, women/mothers are the primary caregivers regardless of what the husband/father does or doesn't do. And I do not mean all. However, mothers are always ON. When the kids are sick, I am up. When they need help with their homework, I am there. When one is sick and can't go to school, I stay with them. Then, I also take care of the house & all the other things. (My situation is a bit different as I am a single parent, but it was the same thing when I was a couple). Secondly, we don't know how Maya's first pregnancy was. Perhaps it was such a breeze she thought a second one would be no problem whatsoever. I know for the first time, I had youth on my side, but I was working a full time job, going to school in the evening (mind you it was arts) and pregnant, plus I still had time to go to the gym, have a social life & felt fantastic!

 

I do think that if women were in charge of an overhaul of the current med learning system things might be very different. The way it is presently, from what has been posted, it is not very child-friendly at all. (Fortunately for me, my children will be teenagers by the time I get to that point.) Studies show that working that many hours without sleep are equivalent to drinking and responses are not as accurate as they should be. A year off of school and on-site daycare should not be unreasonable & should become the norm ~ thus accommodating both men & women.

 

I could go on, but these are some of my significant thoughts. Also, I would suggest that some of the male posters get to know some parents bec you will have parents & women as patients. It would be a good idea to learn compassion for them ahead of time!

[Devari]

So let's take an analogous situation. Someone who has a low income, who has a physical disability (there are many possible situations) chooses to have a child. Or someone chooses to have a child who was diagnosed prenatally with a severe disability. They knew going in to the situation that there would be challenges and they chose to go ahead. Should they not receive any support? No childcare benefits? No home care nurse? None of the many possible resources? Hey they chose it, they can deal with it.

 

Choosing to have a child is 100% the responsibility of the parents. If they aren't capable of properly supporting and caring for children for whatever reason then it is irresponsible and selfish for them to bring a child into the world. The decision to have a child involves a tremendous amount of responsibility. Being responsible for another human life isn't something that should be taken on recklesly or without sufficent planning and preparation.

 

Now, someone who finds themselves injured or disabled after deciding to have children obviously doesn't fall under this category since they couldn't have possibly been able to anticipate this. Same thing with someone whose child has an unexpected accident, illness or injury that they could not have anticipated. In those cases I can support the idea of special accommodation or treatment. But if someone makes a decision to have a child without sufficient consideration for the foreseeable consequences they have absolutely no right to expect society to give them special treatment.

 

What you are basically saying is that people should wait until their personal situation is perfect before having children.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. I said that they should have children once they are in a position to properly support and raise them. For the vast majority of people this is not compatible with the demands of medical school.

 

They should be financially stable. They should have enough time in their schedule (what is enough time anyways?).

 

Yes, they should be financially stable (i.e., be able to meet their child's needs) and have enough time to raise the child. Having someone else raise your child for you (i.e., hiring a nanny to raise your child, leaving your child with your parents, etc.) really defeats the purpose of having a child in the first place.

 

The woman who wrote this article did not ask for special treatment. She struggled through third year as we all do, but with much more on her shoulders. No one is arguing for some kind of special treatment. We are saying that some women choose for whatever reason to have children during med school or residency and they don't want to be judged for it.

 

The author of the article clearly blames the medical profession for her difficulties and seems to expect that she should have been accommodated in some way. For example, she says:

 

"And while I bow out freely -- with only a slight pang of regret -- I still wonder why a profession that's starving for mature, caring and capable individuals, makes it so hard for mothers to survive."

 

"But in this profession, you're expected to endure the same amount of hardship as the generations of doctors that came before you."

 

"For the first time in my life, I've felt bitter towards my work. I would make a good doctor, but I simply can't survive in a system that routinely makes me miss bathtimes and bedtimes and early morning cuddles."

 

Sorry, but what she's doing is complaining that being a doctor is too hard and/or that the hours are too long. How is this the fault of the medical profession? Is she suggesting that she shouldn't have to learn as much information for her exams because she chooses to raise a child? Or that she should have shorter hours? Or that there should be lower standards of training or ability?

 

Her CHOICE to have children while in medical school is what is causing her the difficulty here. That personal choice has NOTHING TO DO with the way the medical profession is run.

 

At the same time, if you’ve thoroughly read my earlier posts you’ll notice that although I have absolutely no respect for the way she is blaming the medical profession for her personal difficulties I do respect the fact that she is putting her family first. As I mentioned in an earlier post many people are missing the point that a dedicated mother who chooses to make raising her children her main priority can provide an important benefit to society. But she needs to accept that her life and her decisions are her own responsibility and the situation she is currently in is not the fault of the medical profession. It's a direct result of her own PERSONAL DECISION to have children while in medical school.

 

also, devari, when you're talking about the average age of women entering med school, i don't think that's a very useful statistic. the vast majority of people i know entering med school next year are doing so right out of undergrad, which would make them 21-23. that 25-year-old average has to be skewed by older applicants. so even if the average age is 25, there are going to be a bunch of women who are entering when it's not practical to put off having kids for much longer.

 

I don't think you understand what those statistics mean. I'm comparing the average age of a medical school graduate to the average age at which a woman starts having children. Both sets of data are averages and are therefore representing exactly the same thing. The fact that some individuals will be younger and some will be older is completely irrelevant - that's why it's called an AVERAGE. People have suggested that putting off children until after medical school typically entails some type of waiting or sacrifice when these data prove that this simply isn't true, since the averages are virtually identical for a U.B.C. medical school graduate (28.7 years) and an average first-time mother in British Columbia (28.8 years).

 

we don't know how old maya is, but it's possible that she didn't HAVE the choice to wait.

 

How could she not have the choice to wait? No one was forcing her to go to medical school, no one was forcing her to have children and she wasn't suddenly going to become infertile by waiting a few more years. She isn't some type of victim here.

 

furthermore, you're only talking about postponing kids until after med school, and ignoring the fact that having a baby during residency would probably be even MORE difficult. are you expecting all women entering med school to wait as much as 9 years for a baby, not even including fellowships?

 

First, she will be in a better situation financially as a resident because she will have a salary instead of relying on loans. Secondly, if she simply can't handle a medical career and family life then that's her problem. If she CHOOSES to combine two demanding things she should take responsibility for that choice. No one forced to her have children and no one forced her to become a doctor.

 

Devari keeps referring to statistics about the “average age” of women entering medicine and what age women are having children, etc. but those numbers are JUST STATS!! They are averages for a reason because there are many women ABOVE the average age entering medicine in their late 20’s or 30’s who do not have the luxury of “waiting things out” providing all other societal influences in their lives allowed them to do so.

 

See above. You're trying to argue that there will be some people above these averages but that's EQUALLY true for BOTH medical school graduates AND first-time Canadian mothers because the averages are essentially identical. And for every woman above the average there are an equivalent number of people below the average. I don't know how else to explain this. It's an AVERAGE. How is that not clear?

 

People are treating medical education as taking so long that it becomes a burden to put off having children until after medical school. Those statistics prove that this is simply not true.

[mei]

Devari-

 

I find it very revealing that you have fallen back on statistics, in a discussion that clearly is about so much more, as is obvious by the many other passionate replies. You aren't a woman and don't have kids...so perhaps, you should move on from this topic.

[bustylegs]

I don't think you understand what those statistics mean. I'm comparing the average age of a medical school graduate to the average age at which a woman starts having children. Both sets of data are averages and are therefore representing exactly the same thing. The fact that some individuals will be younger and some will be older is completely irrelevant - that's why it's called an AVERAGE. People have suggested that putting off children until after medical school typically entails some type of waiting or sacrifice when these data prove that this simply isn't true, since the averages are virtually identical for a U.B.C. medical school graduate (28.7 years) and an average first-time mother in British Columbia (28.8 years).

 

See above. You're trying to argue that there will be some people above these averages but that's EQUALLY true for BOTH medical school graduates AND first-time Canadian mothers because the averages are essentially identical. And for every woman above the average there are an equivalent number of people below the average. I don't know how else to explain this. It's an AVERAGE. How is that not clear?

 

I think the above method of interpreting the data is flawed. The population of all first-time mothers in BC may not be representative of the cohort of women UBC medical school graduates. As such, the sheer size of the "general" population may have in fact masked the true trend in the "medical" subgroup.

 

Just something to think about...

[Pool Rat]

OK so we accept that woman should be able to have children whenever they want, and that includes during med school. Now lets work out the details.

 

Lets think of the “worst” case scenario ie a single mom with no financial means.

 

So during your first four years of med school how does the social network work?

 

1. Do women take the full year off? For those who don’t have financial means who supports them during this time?

What child support options need to be available once they are back in school? (though it sounds to me like daycare wouldn’t have been a big help to the woman in the article because to me it sounded like she wanted to spend more time with her kids, not have a babysitter do it)

 

2. Do they go to school part time and complete their 4 years over 5 or 6 years? In this way they would be able to spend more time with their children.

For those of you who have completed med school, how possible is it to split up the curriculum?

Again for single moms this presents a financial burden since your loan isn’t supposed to last that long. Bigger loans? Cheaper tuition for mothers?

 

3. Is there a third option I’m missing?

 

 

During residency the same applies: Do you take a year off and then go right back to the full swing of things? Or do you work part time and complete your 5-year radiology residency in say 7.5 years? I guess both options should be available, but I see in both cases many women have trouble making ends meet.

 

Should the same opportunities be available to men who wish to take time off to be with their family?

 

Remember, I’m already convinced that medicine and parenthood should be compatible; my question is how do we make it that way. I realize this is a tall order, but lets start throwing some ideas around.

[Pool Rat]

Devari-

 

I find it very revealing that you have fallen back on statistics, in a discussion that clearly is about so much more, as is obvious by the many other passionate replies. You aren't a woman and don't have kids...so perhaps, you should move on from this topic.

 

I think its sad that you want to exclude men (or is it just men who disagree with you?) from this conversation. Creating a system that is more parent friendly will involve having men on board. Excluding them from the conversation and thus the decision making process (and implying that their opinions are less valued then yours) is not helpful in achieving this goal.

[cluelesswonder]

How could she not have the choice to wait? No one was forcing her to go to medical school, no one was forcing her to have children and she wasn't suddenly going to become infertile by waiting a few more years. She isn't some type of victim here.

 

i really don't see how you could know this without knowing how old the original author is. if she's older, it's quite possible that a couple of years could drastically reduce her chance of conception or of having a healthy baby.

 

 

People are treating medical education as taking so long that it becomes a burden to put off having children until after medical school. Those statistics prove that this is simply not true.

 

first, i think you should be very careful of ever using the phrase, "those statistics PROVE"... haha

 

I don't think you understand what those statistics mean. I'm comparing the average age of a medical school graduate to the average age at which a woman starts having children. Both sets of data are averages and are therefore representing exactly the same thing. The fact that some individuals will be younger and some will be older is completely irrelevant - that's why it's called an AVERAGE.

 

i'm wondering whether YOU really understand what the statistics you're using mean. yes, it's an AVERAGE -- and averages are only vaguely useful in discussions such as these. as bustylegs mentioned, the distribution of the whole population may be quite evenly dispersed around the average of 28 when women have their first child. however, my point was that in medicine, that average may come from a skewed distribution. while MOST women in meds will be younger than 28 when they graduate, for that average to be 28 it must be skewed by an older group. just because there may be fewer older women in meds with concerns about family doesn't mean we should ignore them.

 

 

Sorry, but what she's doing is complaining that being a doctor is too hard and/or that the hours are too long. How is this the fault of the medical profession? Is she suggesting that she shouldn't have to learn as much information for her exams because she chooses to raise a child? Or that she should have shorter hours? Or that there should be lower standards of training or ability?

 

Her CHOICE to have children while in medical school is what is causing her the difficulty here. That personal choice has NOTHING TO DO with the way the medical profession is run.

 

devari, i think that what i find so frustrating about your argument is its black-or-white simplicity. everything you've written hinges on the assumption that "responsible" people HAVE to choose between either medicine or family, one at a time. what many posters are trying to do is ask WHY should people have to choose? maybe right now, it IS crazy to try to do both at the same time, but maybe it shouldn't have to be that way.

 

there are hundreds or thousands of examples where we keep doing things in society just because "it's always been that way" without really considering whether what we're doing is best. for example, there's been a HUGE shift in medicine to look for EVIDENCE that supports anything we do. how many long-standing practices have been overturned once we actually examined the evidence for or against them?

 

in the same vein, i think we (as current or future members of the medical community) need to be brave enough to look at the system and see whether there is potential for change. i'm not talking about "special treatment" as you put it, i'm talking about making medical school better for EVERYONE. no, medical training will never be EASY, but maybe we should consider whether putting through students through years of hell, running them into the ground with exhaustion, and cutting them off from their social support networks is really the best idea for anyone.

 

i know posters have mentioned that the trials of clerkship help them to learn. but what i noticed in their posts was more their mention of the responsibility they were given in these situations than the length of time or the exhaustion. couldn't we find another way to give clerks the responsibility that helps them learn, without 36-hour-long shifts? i think the most productive turn for this discussion is to consider ways to make medical training better for EVERYONE, as pool rat has already started to do.

[mei]

I don't want to exclude men from the conversation-I think it is great if they are interested. I was just finding in frustrating that Devari speaks from a position of authority on the subject when he has no experience as a woman in medicine.

I don't think anyone should act as if they have all the answers about this and the point in my first post was that, the least we can all do is support each other and not cut one another down for personal choices.

[Satsuma]

 

2. Do they go to school part time and complete their 4 years over 5 or 6 years? In this way they would be able to spend more time with their children.

For those of you who have completed med school, how possible is it to split up the curriculum?

Again for single moms this presents a financial burden since your loan isn’t supposed to last that long. Bigger loans? Cheaper tuition for mothers?

 

 

During residency the same applies: Do you take a year off and then go right back to the full swing of things? Or do you work part time and complete your 5-year radiology residency in say 7.5 years? I guess both options should be available, but I see in both cases many women have trouble making ends meet.

 

It is not really possible to "split" med school up. It isn't like undergrad where you just need x-amount of credits to graduate. But the school may let you take a year off and then you would just be behind a year.

 

For residency you have a choice...take 3 months off and don`t fall behind a year or take a full year and be behind a year. During residency you are entitled to mat leave benefits. Men can take the year off if they want and it has been done. The only part-time residency programs I am aware of is family med at U of T. Making part-time residency positions would be challenging on so many levels.

[Devari]

Devari-

 

I find it very revealing that you have fallen back on statistics, in a discussion that clearly is about so much more, as is obvious by the many other passionate replies.

 

The vast majority of what I'm saying isn't based on statistics at all, it's based on common sense and about taking responsibility for your decisions. If you've actually read my posts you'll find that I've used statistics only to address a very SPECIFIC point, namely the suggestion that waiting until finishing medical school before starting a family will take too much time. On average the ages are the SAME, which shows that medical school isn't some type of immense burden that typically requires someone to have children several years later then the rest of the population.

 

You aren't a woman and don't have kids...so perhaps, you should move on from this topic.

 

Now that's one of the most amusing things I've read in a long time. You're suggesting that I need to be female and have ALREADY HAD kids to be qualified to make a decision about when to START having kids? Try again, this time after applying some logical thought to your idea.

 

Also, the idea that a man isn't qualified to have a discussion about starting a family is insulting and idiotic. Please try to keep those comments to a minimum if you want to have an intelligent discussion.

 

I think the above method of interpreting the data is flawed. The population of all first-time mothers in BC may not be representative of the cohort of women UBC medical school graduates. As such, the sheer size of the "general" population may have in fact masked the true trend in the "medical" subgroup.

 

Just something to think about...

 

Sorry, but you're trying to suggest that comparing two simple averages to come to a straightforward conclusion is "flawed" because the averages are from different sets of people? That's the ENTIRE point. We're comparing two populations in terms of average age. This is a very simple comparison that I'm making to come to a very specific conclusion. The statistics support EXACTLY what I'm saying here.

 

i really don't see how you could know this without knowing how old the original author is. if she's older, it's quite possible that a couple of years could drastically reduce her chance of conception or of having a healthy baby.

 

If she CHOOSES to do this at an older age that's entirely HER RESPONSIBILITY. She very clearly CHOSE to have children and also CHOSE to go to medical school at that point in her life. You're trying to turn someone who makes CHOICES in her life into some type of victim.

 

first, i think you should be very careful of ever using the phrase, "those statistics PROVE"... haha

 

The statistical comparison here is so straightforward that yes, I can make that statement.

 

i'm wondering whether YOU really understand what the statistics you're using mean. yes, it's an AVERAGE -- and averages are only vaguely useful in discussions such as these. as bustylegs mentioned, the distribution of the whole population may be quite evenly dispersed around the average of 28 when women have their first child. however, my point was that in medicine, that average may come from a skewed distribution. while MOST women in meds will be younger than 28 when they graduate, for that average to be 28 it must be skewed by an older group. just because there may be fewer older women in meds with concerns about family doesn't mean we should ignore them.

 

The distribution of people in medical school only STRENGTHENS my point because there must be significantly LARGER numbers of people in their twenties to offset the skewing of the average data from someone who starts medical school at the age of 40. The fact that someone may be substantially older isn't something that is REPRESENTATIVE of medical graduates, in fact, if anything these older students will be far LESS common then the average would imply. It isn't a FAULT of the medical education system in any way if someone CHOOSES to start pursuing a medical education at a significantly older age then most medical students.

 

devari, i think that what i find so frustrating about your argument is its black-or-white simplicity. everything you've written hinges on the assumption that "responsible" people HAVE to choose between either medicine or family, one at a time. what many posters are trying to do is ask WHY should people have to choose? maybe right now, it IS crazy to try to do both at the same time, but maybe it shouldn't have to be that way.

 

there are hundreds or thousands of examples where we keep doing things in society just because "it's always been that way" without really considering whether what we're doing is best. for example, there's been a HUGE shift in medicine to look for EVIDENCE that supports anything we do. how many long-standing practices have been overturned once we actually examined the evidence for or against them?

 

in the same vein, i think we (as current or future members of the medical community) need to be brave enough to look at the system and see whether there is potential for change. i'm not talking about "special treatment" as you put it, i'm talking about making medical school better for EVERYONE. no, medical training will never be EASY, but maybe we should consider whether putting through students through years of hell, running them into the ground with exhaustion, and cutting them off from their social support networks is really the best idea for anyone.

 

i know posters have mentioned that the trials of clerkship help them to learn. but what i noticed in their posts was more their mention of the responsibility they were given in these situations than the length of time or the exhaustion. couldn't we find another way to give clerks the responsibility that helps them learn, without 36-hour-long shifts? i think the most productive turn for this discussion is to consider ways to make medical training better for EVERYONE, as pool rat has already started to do.

 

Unless you're suggesting that we reduce the standards of medical education there's really no way to give people more "spare time" in which to pursue other full-time commitments such as raising children. The entire point that I'm making here is that people need to consider what they're capable of handling and make their personal life decisions accordingly.

 

I don't want to exclude men from the conversation-I think it is great if they are interested. I was just finding in frustrating that Devari speaks from a position of authority on the subject when he has no experience as a woman in medicine.

 

See above. Suggesting that I need to be a woman to make a proper decision about when to start raising a family is idiotic.

 

I don't think anyone should act as if they have all the answers about this and the point in my first post was that, the least we can all do is support each other and not cut one another down for personal choices.

 

I'm not cutting anyone down for personal choices. I'm saying that when someone makes a personal choice (such as the woman in this article) they need to take RESPONSIBILITY for their choice. Blaming the medical education system for requiring a demanding time commitment is completely ridiculous. As I mentioned above, I fully respect her decision to have children and her decision to leave her career to focus on her children. What I don't respect is the suggestion that the medical eduction system or anyone else is responsible for her situation and decisions.

[Scarlett]

What you are posting Devari is based on YOUR beliefs and perception, not common sense (which is why so many people posting disagree with you).

 

As I mentioned before, decisions around having children/parenting DO NOT always come down to a personal choice… it is not always as simple as you make it out to be because people do not live their lives in complete isolation of external societal/cultural/biological/partner/family pressures. Many people don’t only think of themselves while pursuing their medical training or may not have the luxury to put their life on hold, either way for people who decide to parent while in med school/residency (whatever their reasons may be) should have sufficient support to make it feasible. THIS SUPPORT ALSO APPLIES TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT PARENTING who should be encouraged to maintain a balance in their life, stay involved in the community through volunteer work, have some time for self-care, etc.

 

Your attitude that the medical system cannot be changed to make it more family friendly without sacrificing the quality of training is not only very defeatist, but also narrow-minded. It comes from the binary mindset that in order to gain something, something must be lost along the way… That attitude is what makes so many people so resistant to change. Why can’t we just build on the current medical system to make it better? While reducing shift times may be one approach, making programs more flexible, providing essential services like onsite daycare, counseling and support groups, etc are steps in the right direction (some institutions have already implemented these changes).

 

In today’s medical field I think that many people (sadly) have forgotten about the humanitarian aspect of what it is to be a physician because they are so focused on the science or stats or status that accompanies the profession. As Mei pointed out, how can someone entering medicine show so little empathy and understanding of the vast diversity that exists in our society and the personal life circumstances that everyone experiences. Stop looking at people (and future patients) as statistics and start treating them as human beings.

[BrendanJ]

Dearest Devari:

 

Chill out. Personal attacks are weak. Debates are much more fun when you don't take things so defensively.

 

With Love,

 

BrendanJ

 

 

ps - People as smart/smarter than you probably exist. They also may have different opinions. Shocking? Yes. Seems crazy? I know.

[Kuantum]

I agree with what others are saying, Devari. You are looking at the situation as if there is a correct answer and an incorrect answer. The world (and life especially) is more complicated than that. You may not realize it now (and I know I certainly don't) but child rearing is something that is difficult, requires a great deal of financial, personal, and emotional commitment from parents - yet people go on to do it every year whether or not they are ready for it. I was having lunch with my boss today and she mentioned that parenting is just one of those roles you assume once you get there. I am guessing medicine is the same. Sure, there are those that are going to be very successful and those that are going to barely pass, however, regardless of how much we are told medicine is difficult, we will not rise to the occasion to the extent we need to until we actually get there. It's very difficult for a person to just decide not to have a kid until their medical education is over...when could that be. Also, you make it sound like it was her choice to have a kid. We don't know any of the circumstances that led to having a kid, just that she has kids.

 

Medicine does need to change, if you don't get that then I think you are sorely misinformed about some of the issues. A lot of woman (not just in medicine) are often pressured to choose between family and their career. Yes, there is maternity leave, yes there are programs in place. However, what happens during that absence. You lose your seniority, you lose practise, and if you are in business or law, you lose your client relationships which are often difficult to rebuild. Medicine isn't just hard on women, it's just far less accommodating for them. A fatherly role is important in the socialization of a child and an absent father is more likely to create issues in a child than one where the father is present. To take it a step farther, our society and cultural beliefs need to be adjusted so that child rearing is seen as more of a dual role instead of primarily a maternal role. If we really believed this, I'm sure you'd see changes fast. The world is changing and if you are not prepared to accept that, maybe you just need to move aside and stay with your old and archaic ideas in the past. Medicine is an ever-evolving profession, just like cultural norms and values, and it needs to better accommodate the lives of it's providers and recipients. A happy physicians is certainly a better more productive physician that is likely and better willing to respond patients' needs.

 

You say you aren't cutting people down, but telling them their ideas are idiotic is clearly cutting them down - no argument in that so don't even bother addressing this point.

 

Devari, you are clearly passionate about this issue but I think you need to chill out for a moment. Take a look at all the different types of people you'll be coming into contact with when you get into medicine. If you try and impose your ideas on all of them, I can guarantee you one (likely more) will be more than happy to cut you down very swiftly and very harshly. Learn to listen and learn to understand, you'll be a better person...and probably a better doctor for it.

[Mitch]

Devari, I'm sorry because I don't like to personally attack people, but your "logic" is nonsensical because it is completely context-free, your interpretation of statistics is dreadfully ill-informed, and you are just plain rude. If this is the way you truly think, feel, and believe, I sincerely hope that you consider another career other than medicine. I am going to ignore your posts from here on in, even though I am sure you will have some poorly thought-out rebuttal for me.

 

However, thinking in a more positive light:

It is not really possible to "split" med school up. It isn't like undergrad where you just need x-amount of credits to graduate. But the school may let you take a year off and then you would just be behind a year.

 

For residency you have a choice...take 3 months off and don`t fall behind a year or take a full year and be behind a year. During residency you are entitled to mat leave benefits. Men can take the year off if they want and it has been done. The only part-time residency programs I am aware of is family med at U of T. Making part-time residency positions would be challenging on so many levels.

 

This is interesting. I suppose med school, as it currently exists, is not possible to split up. However, do you think that it could be re-developed in a completely different way, so that it would be possible to split it up? It may take a complete re-envisioning of how education can be delivered in a meaningful way, but it may be worthwhile to brainstorm some ideas.

 

As for clerkship year and residency, I have to say I do not believe that putting in tons of hours, stressed, unhealthy, and exhausted, is at ALL conducive to learning. This has actually been studied quite extensively. A previous poster mentioned that the depth of responsibility a clerk held more directly contributes to learning vs. the grueling hours. Staying up all night to re-start IVs and prescribe sleeping meds and stool softeners isn't necessarily a fine learning opportunity. What about doing shifts, instead? For example, doing 3 X 12 or 16 hour nights as a clerk, but with the daytime off to sleep?

Same with residency??

Of course, these are just preliminary ideas thrown off the cuff. I'd be interested to hear what others think. I know my DH has quite a few ideas about it, having done an ortho surg. residency. I have quite a few thoughts myself, having designed program curricula for other health care professions.

 

Now one other question, it seems part-time residencies would be complicated to develop. I'm wondering what the specifics of the complications are? Is it in terms of manpower for each program? Or is it more about the learning needs of the residents?

[Devari]

What you are posting Devari is based on YOUR beliefs and perception, not common sense (which is why so many people posting disagree with you).

 

Sorry, but everyone knows that medicine and raising kids are both very demanding. That IS common sense.

 

Your attitude that the medical system cannot be changed to make it more family friendly without sacrificing the quality of training is not only very defeatist, but also narrow-minded.

 

The problems the woman in the article were addressing were aspects that were inherent to the career. Long hours, limited free time, and so on. These aren't things that can be reduced without significantly affecting the nature of the career.

 

Dearest Devari:

 

Chill out. Personal attacks are weak. Debates are much more fun when you don't take things so defensively.

 

When I'm told that I "should move on from this topic" because I'm male I'm going to call that type of suggestion idiotic 100% of the time because that's exactly what it is.

 

Medicine does need to change, if you don't get that then I think you are sorely misinformed about some of the issues. A lot of woman (not just in medicine) are often pressured to choose between family and their career. Yes, there is maternity leave, yes there are programs in place. However, what happens during that absence. You lose your seniority, you lose practise, and if you are in business or law, you lose your client relationships which are often difficult to rebuild. Medicine isn't just hard on women, it's just far less accommodating for them.

 

Again, we're talking about personal choices here. Suggesting that women are somehow unfairly treated or penalized in medicine for having a child is simply not true. It's simply that having a child demands a large amount of time and this time has to come from somewhere. There's no conspiracy against women and children out there and the system isn't designed to make a woman's life difficult, it's just the reality of trying to combine a full-time job with the demands of raising children.

 

You say you aren't cutting people down, but telling them their ideas are idiotic is clearly cutting them down - no argument in that so don't even bother addressing this point.

 

Actually, the claim was that I was cutting someone down for their personal choices, which isn't true. My comments were clearly directed at specific claims and suggestions that were made.

 

Devari, you are clearly passionate about this issue but I think you need to chill out for a moment. Take a look at all the different types of people you'll be coming into contact with when you get into medicine. If you try and impose your ideas on all of them, I can guarantee you one (likely more) will be more than happy to cut you down very swiftly and very harshly. Learn to listen and learn to understand, you'll be a better person...and probably a better doctor for it.

 

How am I "imposing" anything on anyone? I'm saying that people should make their choices and take the responsibility for the conseqences rather than complaining that the "system" isn't specifically designed to make their life easier. I never said that someone shouldn't have children but rather that their children are their own responsibility, not the responsibility of the medical system, society in general, or anyone else.

 

 

Devari, I'm sorry because I don't like to personally attack people, but your "logic" is nonsensical because it is completely context-free, your interpretation of statistics is dreadfully ill-informed, and you are just plain rude. If this is the way you truly think, feel, and believe, I sincerely hope that you consider another career other than medicine. I am going to ignore your posts from here on in, even though I am sure you will have some poorly thought-out rebuttal for me.

 

You're welcome to your own opinions. Just don't expect me to agree with them.

[tallguy408]

I think part of the problem here is that people on both sides of this argument seem to consider motherhood as some kind of extracurricular thing, rather than the full-time job that it is.

 

How exactly would we improve the medical education system to accomodate this? One suggestion has been made to make call schedules shorter or more flexible. Awesome idea. But that only ensures that mommy will be home for breakfast and supper (at best). What about the whole rest of the day? Daycare? Babysitters? Even if they were faculty-supplied and paid for to help out mothers in med, is this great parenting? No.

 

Motherhood is an awesome responsibility, and as such, an awesome amount of sacrifice is required. Its very compelling to talk about how "the system" is unfair and that women and how they lose status, seniority etc., but how would you propose to solve this? Give them rank and file despite taking time off, just because they are women who chose motherhood? What about women who didn't? What about women who worked their butts off to get where they are? Is it fair that a mother is just "given" status and seniority, despite not earning it?

 

I support the view that no one should be given "breaks" for what really does come down to a personal choice. And despite any pressures, it is a choice. No matter how much pressure a person is under to be a mother, they make that choice. If they decide not to, they make an unpopular choice. But I certainly don't think anyone on here can prove that parenting is not, at its very base, a choice. And I feel that people should face the reprucussions of their choices.

 

However, should medicine change? Absolutely. But as I said above, how? I have yet to see any real suggestions on here. Medicine needs to become more compatible with families, but this means all parts of it, mothers and fathers.

 

I agree with Kuantum that Devari should chill out, but I further that by saying that a lot of people on the other side of the issue also need to chill out. Mei's comments regarding women, men and "authority" on this issue are way off the mark, as have been some others on here. Its all very fun to say whatever the heck you want on an anonymous forum, but how many of you would have the courage to express the views you do with names attached?

[tallguy408]

Just read Mitch's most recent post on this thread. I think his suggestion about night call schedule is good.

[Mitch]

Tallguy,

 

Just so's you know...I'm not a "he", I'm a "she". I am a 38 year old mother of three great children. I have had a busy career, completed graduate school, and am now working on medicine pre-req's.......ALL while being an amazing mother. My children have a nanny, but not 24/7, I'm there 24/7. I take parenting extremely seriously, but I also take my own life and needs into consideration. Parenting involves alot of sacrifice, it's true......but a parent (mother) cannot sacrifice herself entirely, and STILL be a good parent. My husband is a specialist surgeon who also takes parenting extremely seriously. He has read many of the posts in this thread, and quite frankly is disgusted at some of the opinions expressed, particularly by people who have not experienced much of either parenthood or a medical career.

 

Yes, medicine is a career that often entails long hours and sacrifices.....just as many other careers do. Yes, it is true that in our current society, women are generally the primary caregivers of children....despite whatever career they are involved in...but that doesn't mean that medicine doesn't NEED to change to reflect the current needs of the female half of society! Many other professions need to make those same changes; and not just for women. What IS needed is planning and support for everyone to be able to make this type of demanding career more sustainable. Physicians have a very high rate of substance abuse, depression, and divorce (higher than the general public), and many even leave the profession.....and there's a reason for that! So blaming people who are being open about the unsupportive nature and culture of medicine, for 'not planning appropriately' is not only useless, it's worse....it works against ALL of us.

There is no perfect time in a person's life to have children, especially as a woman. Yes, you can try to plan your child-bearing to make it as successful as possible, but it doesn't mean it's going to work out that way.

 

Let's maybe try and think together of alternative ways to change the status quo from within....WHILST being accepting, and dare I say supportive, of other people's life situations, instead of judging them!

 

Stepping off soapbox now.....

[Julie]

Are there committees that adress this question? I mean, I could see a group formed of physicians and students at different levels with the mandate to try and improve our med education system, incl. the schedule & its compatibility with raising a family... I guess it probably already exists, I can't see how it wouldn't... but maybe we need to put more emphasis on solving this schedule issue...

 

Meds is a full time job and a half (2 full time jobs during clerkship and res., apparently!), but then, most families have at least one parent employed full-time. I know my partner is willing to be a stay-at-home dad, but that doesn't mean I want to be a completely absent mother, should we decide to have kids! And I'm one of those who is seriously taking risks of infertility and genetic problems if I delay this until I finish residency... I have no idea what my partner & I will decide to do... I guess we'll wait and see how I find med school to decide.

 

Anyway, rethinking and reconsidering for the med schedule is probably in order, seing how many people consider it a problem... we can't make things perfect, but I think we have to try to make it better if we can! Maybe it doesn't have to be part-time programs, but could there be, as others suggested, slightly more family-friendly programs? (ie 60 hr weeks fam. res. which lasts 3 yrs instead of 2?). I don't know, I think some people would choose those programs if they were available.

 

I do wonder what types of committees are adressing this issue already... Would be an interesting ec!

[tallguy408]

Mitch,

 

My extreme apologies for the assumption based on your name! I agree stuff needs to be done to make the profession better too, but I think having experienced what you have, you would agree that things can be handled with good planning and support. No one deserves a "break". What is needed is better support.

 

I agree both careers and parenting should be able to coexist. Again though, what I believe is needed is adequate support and backups, not "breaks".

 

I think Julie also provides a good option, with a longer, more relaxed residency program option.

 

My suggestion to improve things?

 

"Rehabilitive" study services and training to help get those who have taken a leave (for pregnancy or any other reason) back up to speed ASAP. This would prevent a pregnant woman from sacrificing career quality for her family. Also, I think telehealth should be expanded. This would allow some physicians to complete some work away from the office/hospital, hopefully making life easier and more "family-friendly".

[unknown user 7]

Wow, it is kinda sad that this thread has turned into a big debate.

 

I say we do like a said before and accept that you are all wrong and my view is right. That way nobody loses and nobody wins...except me. It's all fair. Lol.

[LFTs]

Having children during medical school or residency is, of course, a personal choice. The civilized thing that we can do as physicians is to support that choice. We're living in 2007, not 1957, right?

 

Devari - You need a huge bolus of humility if you're looking to be a physician. There is really no room in medicine these days for digging in deep and arguing your point to the very end. Neither your patients or colleagues will appreciate that, guaranteed.

 

LFTs

 

Disclosure: Male, mid twenties, final year of meds, no kids.

[Mitch]

No worries about mistaking me for a male, Tallguy (and anyone else who assumed the same!). It's a nickname taken from my youth...I was the youngest of 5 girls...my parents really wanted a boy....you know...

The anonymity of the internet really does nothing for my female physique!!

 

I think the teleheath idea has alot of merit. I also think that streaming lectures from med school could be an option as well, although with the current PBL bandwagon that might be more difficult to envision.

 

I also think the current remuneration setup for practising physicians is ludicrous. It encourages work-a-holic tendencies (sometimes as a necessity), and does nothing to promote reasonable workloads for physicians, nor length of physician encounters for patients. I think this is a key issue that must be addressed if the 'hours spent working' issue is ever going to have a hope of being resolved.

 

I'm wondering why part time residencies are so complicated to envision and enact??

[ducky]

Are there committees that adress this question? I mean, I could see a group formed of physicians and students at different levels with the mandate to try and improve our med education system, incl. the schedule & its compatibility with raising a family... I guess it probably already exists, I can't see how it wouldn't... but maybe we need to put more emphasis on solving this schedule issue...

 

 

I do wonder what types of committees are adressing this issue already... Would be an interesting ec!

The American Academy of Pediatrics has a Task Force on the Family, you can pubmed it if you like. It mostly discussed family centred care in the pediatric setting, how to deal with the evolving family, but there is a section about female pediatric residents and their decisions to have kids and how as pediatricians they should be best understanding of family.