Mom Realizes she Can't Hack Med School & Raising Children at the same time

[Satsuma]

OK, I haven`t read this whole thread and I don't have kids either.

But I just wanted to say, that I don`t think kids and medicine are incompatible.

If you really want it...you can have "everything", just not all at once!

 

Whether or not it will work for one person though I think depends on alot of things. The specialization you choose, the support of your spouse (both financially and emotionally), your ability to deal with stress, whether you choose to take one year off in residency or go back in 3 months etc, whether you are able to afford a nanny and are comfortable with that set-up etc.

 

U of T even has a part-time family medicine residency...though I suspect it isn't easy to get a spot and you must justify why you need to go part-time.

 

Don`t let one person's experience disuade you from a career you may find really rewarding. There will be rough times, but that could be true in alot of other careers.

 

So Ducky...if you are truly set on medicine, go for it!

[Julie]

Suggesting that undergrad or graduate studies somehow doesn't require as much of a “full-time” commitment as medical school simply isn't true.

 

Undergrad and grad certainly require a full-time commitment. Like I said, having kids during that time would totally be a challenge. I just think there's a difference between that and an 80+ hrs per week schedule.

 

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think most students end up working far more hours during clerkship than during grad or undergrad. I have to say, having done both, that I have never felt the need to pull more than one or two 80+ hr weeks in a semester. Ever. And even on the few occasions that I did, it was mostly because I was being a perfectionist & wanted to be sure I'd get that A+, not because I needed it to pass or even get med school marks. If you have an 80+ hr schedule during clerkship, you have no choice. I'm sure if you choose to only work 60 of those hours and consistently don't show up for the last 20, you fail. The same thing isn't true, or at least it wasn't at all for me, during undergrad & grad. I generally managed fine on 40 to 60 hr weeks. And I still kept my GPA up and had enough ec's to get in. I'm sure the required time to study in grad and undergrad varies increadibly from person to person, but I can't think of anyone I know who pulled clerkship-type schedules for years during grad & undergrad.

 

...I guess I have to agree a bit more with Paule on this one... we seem to have really different ways of viewing the topic.... You have the right to think differently though. I guess it'd be borring if that were never the case!

[Devari]

The problem with this argument is that it implies that this woman was not a committed mother BEFORE she decided to leave school.

 

She obviously didn't feel that she had enough time to fulfil her commitments as a parent. That was the ENTIRE POINT of her article.

 

Furthermore, I feel that, for instance, my son BENEFITS from my going to med school because it is what I need to be satisfied with life and because I want him to see me pursue my goals despite any barriers.

 

Sorry, but stating that "if I'm happy this will make my children happy" is an extremely selfish way of thinking. Parents (the good ones, at least) routinely make sacrifices for their children and often have to give up certain aspects of their time, finances or career in order to raise a family. For a parent to suggest that making themselves happy benefits their child when the activity in question makes it difficult to find enough time to look after their child in the first place is quite simply idiotic.

 

Oh come on. When medical education began is WAS designed to favor wealthy men. Please give me some historical examples of how this was NOT so. I would be happy to give you some of how it was so. Furthermore, no one is arguing that medicine is not a demanding career. The argument here centers on whether or not it is possible to accomodate those, especially women, who have children. Notice in Dr. Susan O'Reilly's response that she also had an eight months old. However, she also had a free creche for students' babies at the university. That is a form of support that makes it easier for a woman in medical school who have children. At UBC, it will take you two years to get your kid into the university child care, it is not free, and it only opens at 8am, the same time that classes begins.

 

Sorry, but you're suggesting that because a program does not SPECIFICALLY ACCOMMODATE someone who chooses to raise a child WHILE IN MEDICAL SCHOOL that the entire medical education system is somehow biased in favor of wealthy men? See my earlier post explaining how ANY type of full-time post-secondary education program will produce the same issues when trying to raise a child.

 

And if you want me to specifically disprove your retarded idea that medical school is biased against women, I'll do so with the following two facts. First, medical schools do not have any negative admissions bias against women as evidenced by the fact that half of the medical school students admitted are women. Secondly, if a woman waits until after she graduates from medical school before having a child this will not statistically put her at any noticeable disadvantage in terms of the age at which she starts having children (I've addressed this in more detail below). These two facts prove that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that puts a woman at any noticeable disadvantage if she attends medical school prior to starting a family, so you can feel free to discard your idiotic claim that medical school is biased against women.

 

I am not blaming long on-call hours on religion. That's silly. My point here was simply that as a society largely founded on protestant values, we sometimes value hard work and suffering as being good in and of itself, regardless of whether or not anything comes out of that hard work and suffering. But this is really a whole different topic...

 

Actually, Canadian society isn't largely founded on religious values in any meaningful way any longer. And the medical education system is most definately a secular one with essentially no religious aspects.

 

That's an awfully defeatist view.

 

It's a realistic view. Take a look at how issues are advanced in Canadian society. Smoking is a good example. The harmful health effects of smoking were known for many years but things only changed when it became a legal issue. Tobacco companies got sued, advertising for tobacco products was restricted, smoking bans in public places were introduced in many cities, and so on. It required lawsuits and other legal issues to actually change anything. Same thing with drunk driving. Everyone knew the harm it caused, but it was only once people were faced with stricter legal penalties (i.e., actually losing your driver's license) that the situation started to improve. Until there is a legal requirement to change something people very rarely correct these types of problems on their own. People in general are often very stubborn, lazy and stupid and avoid changing their behavior until they are required to do so.

 

Actually, according to UBC admission stats, the mean age of the entering medical school last year was 24.71, and there are many women who are older than that. So MOST women are not graduating in their mid to late twenties and many do have to worry about fertility issues.

 

I'm not sure what the median age is across Canada, but if you want to use the U.B.C. statistics then if a woman enters medical school at 25 she'll graduate by 29. Now, from the Statistics Canada website at http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050712/d050712a.htm:

 

"Among women giving birth for the first time, the average age was 28.0 years in 2003. The oldest first-time mothers on average were in British Columbia, at 28.8 years, followed closely by Ontario at 28.7."

 

So a woman who waits until after graduating from medical school at the age of 29 to have her first child isn't going to be significantly later on average then other Canadian women. At U.B.C. we're talking 29 years for the medical school graduate compared to 28.8 years for other first-time mothers in British Columbia or 28 years on average throughout Canada. For a woman to wait until she's graduated from medical school before having her first child simply does not put her at any noticeable disadvantage compared to other first-time Canadian mothers.

 

Well, I just think that you are dead wrong and, obviously, have fundamentally different values than you do. I certainly do not believe that I have to CHOSE between raising my child and practicing medicine, and I fully expect my medical career to accomodate my raising my children AND that it is in their best interest to do so. I am not one to kowtow to the status quo. Luckily for me, the Island Medical Program administration has, so far, indicated that they WILL accomodate my having a child, and the fact that his father is away a lot of the time, in a number of ways.

 

You seem to be far too focused on justifying why following a demanding career path is "good" for your child rather than on focusing on how to maximize your ability to provide proper parenting to your children. It's great if you can make it work but you're deluding yourself if you think that you're doing your child some type of favor by attending medical school.

 

It is good to know, though, that in fighting for my right to have a medical career and have children, I will also have to deal with the narrowmindedness of other students.

 

So you think that because you CHOOSE to raise a child while in medical school that being specifically accommodated for that CHOICE is somehow a RIGHT? Sorry, but you might want to try taking responisbility for the personal choices you've made in your life instead of expecting society to somehow provide special accommodations to make your life easier.

 

Undergrad and grad certainly require a full-time commitment. Like I said, having kids during that time would totally be a challenge. I just think there's a difference between that and an 80+ hrs per week schedule.

 

Again, as I stated earlier the specific time demands and pressures will vary between undergrad, graduate school, and medical school. However, none of these full-time programs will leave you with enough spare time to raise a child properly.

[tallguy408]

Great post.

 

To have children during medical school is a personal choice, and while some allowances should perhaps be made in order to help accomodate this, any person selecting this option should expect ABSOLUTELY NO HELP OR SPECIAL TREATMENT. This is not a view that I have because I hate people with children, but it is just common sense. Always plan for the most difficult, worst situation, and you will always be prepared. How a women could possibly think that having a SECOND young child in her life would POSSIBLY be compatable with the demands of medical school is beyond me. In fact, it might even be laughable.

 

I understand the concept of a biological clock, and despite what women (and many men for that matter) think, men (at least some) have a biological clock too. I want to be a father, and I want to be young and healthy enough to run alongside my child as I show him/her the world I have come to love. But I understand, for both my and my unborn child's best interests, that it is best for me to complete my medical studies before contemplating fatherhood. I will be happier because I will have fulfilled my dream, and I will have more time (and financial resources!) to support my child. I don't believe that a nanny or daycare is the best way to raise a child full-time, but waiting till later allows for the financial means to pay for such services when times become especially tight.

 

Bottom line on this case is that this woman bit off FAR more than she could chew, without any backup plan or safety net to fall back on. As any parent will tell you, a child is a full-time job. Two is even worse. To think that you could do this will a demanding full-time career/education is poor planning and estimation at best, and absolute lunacy at worst. While I pity the pain and anguish this woman faced, she has only herself and her poor planning to blame. Medical schools have plenty of safeguards to protect the well-being of their students, but these only help a person so far. A bike helmet can only help you so much, but if you decide to go cliff-jumping, you are on your own.

[umza]

I started med school with an 18 month old.

I graduated and he was 5.5 yo

At the end of residency he will be 10.5 yo.

 

It was hard, my husband stayed at home with my son for the four year undergrad medicine. He worked weekends and evenings as a waiter.

I would fall asleep with my son at bedtime but wake to my alarm at 3 am and study until class time.

 

Clerkship was hard, lots of babysitters, but most programs were understanding about picking up your child from daycare...not many are open past 6 pm.

 

4 th year was cheesecake!

 

Now that I am starting residency, 1 year of 1 in four call....

my mom is moving next door...yay 24-7 daycare right next door.

 

Don't think that it can't be done.

And when my son gets mad at me he says, "all you ever want to do is read books, you are no fun, mom!" but it is worth it!

[Mitch]

Sorry, but stating that "if I'm happy this will make my children happy" is an extremely selfish way of thinking. Parents (the good ones, at least) routinely make sacrifices for their children and often have to give up certain aspects of their time, finances or career in order to raise a family. For a parent to suggest that making themselves happy benefits their child when the activity in question makes it difficult to find enough time to look after their child in the first place is quite simply idiotic.

 

Devari, are you a parent yourself?

[Devari]

Devari, are you a parent yourself?

 

No. I have no intention of having children until I'm in a position to properly support and raise them and I still have many years of education to finish before that will happen.

[avenir001]

No. I have no intention of having children.

 

thank God

[The Law]

thank God

 

LOL, snap.

 

Devari you are being so arrogant. Honestly, learn to accept the fact that there are other viewpoint besides your own. I'm sure I'm going to get a 1 million page reply to this post, but you do it in every single thread. Your smug post makes it seem as though you are much "wiser" than people who decide to have kids despite the fact that they are going to be busy pursuing their career. I assure you, you're not. I find it funny that you act as though your opinion is the only one that matters and that you choose to pick out every single detail from others' arguments in an effort to dissuade them of their opinion. We're all unique people, with different background and differing opinions. I think at some point, we all have to just try to acknowledge the other person's perspective.

[Devari]

Honestly, learn to accept the fact that there are other viewpoint besides your own.

 

Accepting that someone has a certain viewpoint isn't the same as agreeing with their viewpoint.

 

I find it funny that you act as though your opinion is the only one that matters and that you choose to pick out every single detail from others' arguments in an effort to dissuade them of their opinion.

 

If someone presents an argument or idea that isn't logical, isn't reasonable or is factually incorrect then I'm going to point that out to them. Hasn't that become crystal clear by now?

 

Several people in this thread seemed to treat the situation of raising a child in medical school as if it was something that should receive some type of special treatment or accommodation as if the situation was somehow involuntary or put upon that person by someone else. I've repeatedly pointed out that choosing to have children during a demanding educational program is a personal choice and explained why people who make this choice should take full responsibility for it. If someone chooses to create difficult circumstances for themselves (such as the mother in the article at the start of this thread) then they really don't have any business complaining about that decision later, particularly since the difficulties that will accompany having a child while in medical school are completely predictable and obvious. If someone can do this and make it work, that's great, but I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who willingly makes this choice and then complains about how difficult it is.

[The Law]

If someone presents an argument or idea that isn't logical, isn't reasonable or is factually incorrect then I'm going to point that out to them. Hasn't that become crystal clear by now?

 

I guess the subjectivity of the world is non-existent to you then.

My friend, you can't justify every single thing with logic. We're human, find ourselves in various situations in life. We have feelings, emotion, and do not always think logically. I fail to see how people complaining that their career does not give them enough time for their children is irrational. Not everyone has the luxury of waiting an extra 8 years to have children.

[Devari]

I fail to see how people complaining that their career does not give them enough time for their children is irrational. Not everyone has the luxury of waiting an extra 8 years to have children.

 

Did you miss the part where I explained that if a woman waits until she's graduated from medical school before having children that she won't be any older on average than other first-time mothers in Canada? You're acting like it's some type of hardship for someone to wait that long when it's simply representative of how long an average Canadian mother waits before starting a family.

 

Please actually read what I've written in my posts before making claims that I've already refuted with simple facts. I even provided the link to the Statistics Canada website in my post, which is a good example of how to win one part of the internet by using another part of the internet.

[tallguy408]

I agree with Devari, and apologies to you, Law. I play varsity basketball, or did until just recently. HUGE emotions involved here too. BUT, I knew that I could not manage the burden of competitive sport at an elite level with Med School. I did not whine to anyone. I did not expect any breaks. If I had decided to continue with my sport, the burden for this choice would be on MY shoulders. I certainly don't think you would be on here defending me if I started whining and complaining about how med school/clerkship/residency did not allow for my athletic aspirations. Of course you will argue that this is not as important as kids. To me, it is. And I am not just putting it off. I am giving it up for good. I DON'T have the luxury of trying to play later. I will be past my prime.

 

I'm not saying everyone should wait for kids, or give up sports, or sacrifice something they don't want to. What I (and Devari) are saying is that if you CHOOSE hard circumstances, you get hard trials in life, and they are all due to your choice. NO ONE ELSE SHOULD SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISION!

 

If any of the other anecdotes I have read or heard have any bearing, the woman in this article was likely already in considerable hardship from her first child. Without judging her motives or how she came to be pregnant the first time, it is clear, that even though she had one child and the problems and difficulties therein, she CHOSE to have a second. Whether implicit or explicit, she decided "Family is more important to me than medicine, and I am going to place creating a family above medicine". To then whine about how horribly unfair med school has been is ridiculous. Clearly, this woman did not take her medical school responsibilities seriously, else she would not have made her decision, or would have made it only after ensuring NUMEROUS safeguards were in place. Perhaps she should have been weeded out during med school interviews as not being serious about medicine. If the med school is to blame in any way for this woman's predicament, perhaps it is their failure to do this.

 

[ploughboy]

Perhaps she should have been weeded out during med school interviews as not being serious about medicine. If the med school is to blame in any way for this woman's predicament, perhaps it is their failure to do this.

 

*boggle*

 

Are you suggesting that med school interviews should ask women if they're planning on gettingn pregnant? There are good reasons why those sorts of questions are illegal, you know.

 

 

What I (and Devari) are saying is that if you CHOOSE hard circumstances, you get hard trials in life, and they are all due to your choice. NO ONE ELSE SHOULD SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISION!

 

 

It's a little off-topic, but I can't let that pass without comment.: no matter what area of medicine you eventually specialize in, a lot of your early training is going to be spent dealing with the typical high BMI, 30+ pack-year, non-compliant patients suffering from a host of lifestyle-related diseases.

 

It can get really frustrating, but that's one of the realities of medicine. Better get used to the idea...

[avenir001]

no matter what area of medicine you eventually specialize in, a lot of your early training is going to be spent dealing with the typical high BMI, 30+ pack-year, non-compliant patients suffering from a host of lifestyle-related diseases.

 

It can get really frustrating, but that's one of the realities of medicine. Better get used to the idea...

 

lol, right on! great example.

[mei]

Reading this thread, makes me ashamed to be in medical school. What happened to the "community of caring" that we are supposed to create for each other as professionals? That someone was brave enough to publish such a personal reflection, should be respected, especially from her peers. That she was obviously struggling and felt no there was no outlet for help, reflects poorly on us as a medical community and especially poorly on UBC medicine student support services. I know that most likely outlets do extist for students like Maya at UBC, but clearly we have created such a cut-throat, competitive, uncaring, atmosphere (as reflected by many posts in this thread) in medicine that students feel completely alone when they are in trouble.

 

You all say that she shouldn't have chosen to have kids and that she should have just waited. All of the docs I know, that have successfullly raised a family, say the same thing: you can't plan life!. Also, people who think you can wait to have kids until after all medical training should look up some statistics about Trisomy 21 and all the other bad oucomes that increase as the woman gets older. Most women aren't finished residency until they are approaching 35. I don't think it is a surprise that most of the negative replies are from men. I don't think any of you actually have any concept what the pressure is like for a woman who wants to have a family in medicine.

 

The greatest gift we has a human beings is to have children and to raise them. Any amount of good doctoring does not even come close to your contribution of raising a healthy, happy, productive member of society. As productive members ourselves, are we not the best people to be raising children? So why do we not encourage this?

 

Those of you who don't have a spouse and don't have children, fill your lives with work and claim that you are being more noble than the rest of us who treat medicine as a job and put our families first. For a lot of you that is all you have, so it is hard to understand that someone like Maya has more. I would be willing to put a lot of money on the fact that despite her struggles, Maya has a lot more skill with patients than those of you wanting to feed her to the wolves. She opened her life to other individuals (kids, spouse) and has experience that the rest of us can't even imagine.

 

Medicine is a job. Just a job. We are a lucky to have been accepted to medical school. We are lucky that our job helps people and even luckier if we are good at it. I will do the best job I can, but medicine will never be who I am. People who make medicine their life, end up burnt out, on drugs, and divorced. The suggestion that interviews should have revealed her lack of commitment is ridiculous. Wanting a family doesn't mean you aren't committed to medicine- it means medicine is still archaic in the way it treats those of us who want families!

 

Finally those of you who are deluded into this "women can have it all attitude" are the ones who haven't been there. I hear the girls in my class saying "oh I will be an ortho resident and I'll just use a sperm bank and have 3 kids and adopt 3 african kids and pay a nanny a houskeeper, etc..." What a joke! What kind of life is that? The most well-adjusted doctors I have met have all said the same thing: medicine is just a job, not who you are, not your life. The same doctors have also explained that a lot of doctors kids are 'crappy'. This is not the doctors fault, this is the system's fault, for not supporting them to be able to raise their children properly. Another doc said how sad he was how women are treated in medicine. We are told we can have it all and many of us end up struggling like Maya in a system that pays lip-service only to the challenges of being a doctor and raising a family. One doctor I met thought it was pretty good she saw her kids 1/2 hour per day at lunch. What kind of life is that? I know some women do make it work, but it is still a struggle and you are still sacrificing time from your family and work, But, I think the successful ones are the exception. Every person is an individual, just because one person claims to have made it work does not mean that Maya should also have been successful in such a flawed system. When everyone in medicine who wants to have a family can without significant struggles then we will know we have achieved something. Look at how the private sector treats their employees....do you think Microsoft's top engineers who are women are shunned when they want to have children? Or do you think they are given every benefit possible..which in the long run creates more productive work? (I know the healthcare system does not have the same resources as Microsoft, I am simply comparing the attitudes towards making employees happy).

 

Finally I am most upset that no one has recognized what Maya has done. Read her artcile again. She is not asking for special treatment. She has taken responsibility for her own choices (as many are accusing her of not doing), by choosing not to pursue this career She opened up her soul to the world by writing that article and we can all learn from her journey. When is the last time you did something that brave? Those of you who said that it is personal-are right. We should respect that this is her personal decision and support her as a community. It is only through people like her that we will ever change this every man for himself culture that exists in medicine, improve our own lives and in turn those of our patients.

 

As for me, I plan to have kids in residency, and yes my team members can pick up the slack (and it sure seems you would be glad to, since working and medicine are everything to you). I made the decision a while ago to pursue a medical career that I had been interested in in undergrad but had been brainwashed out of in medical school. I made the decision to return to it based on the fact that the training and eventual career are family friendly. Reading the responses in this thread have cemented my decision even more, as it will be the furthest away in medicine I can get from the attitudes demonstrated on this thread.

 

I know that there will be lots of replies to this calling me: soft, a feminist, not dedicated to my work, etc.... But as I don't usually read this forum I may not read them. In any case, I hope that this spirited discussion continues, and everyone at least tries to see things from a perspective other than their own.

[Ollie]

I agree with Devari, and apologies to you, Law. I play varsity basketball, or did until just recently. HUGE emotions involved here too. BUT, I knew that I could not manage the burden of competitive sport at an elite level with Med School. I did not whine to anyone. I did not expect any breaks. If I had decided to continue with my sport, the burden for this choice would be on MY shoulders. I certainly don't think you would be on here defending me if I started whining and complaining about how med school/clerkship/residency did not allow for my athletic aspirations. Of course you will argue that this is not as important as kids. To me, it is. And I am not just putting it off. I am giving it up for good. I DON'T have the luxury of trying to play later. I will be past my prime.

 

Perhaps she should have been weeded out during med school interviews as not being serious about medicine.

 

Are you seriously comparing playing a sport with having children? And are you seriously saying that a woman who has children during her training is not committed to her career?

 

Several people in this thread seemed to treat the situation of raising a child in medical school as if it was something that should receive some type of special treatment or accommodation as if the situation was somehow involuntary or put upon that person by someone else. I've repeatedly pointed out that choosing to have children during a demanding educational program is a personal choice and explained why people who make this choice should take full responsibility for it. If someone chooses to create difficult circumstances for themselves (such as the mother in the article at the start of this thread) then they really don't have any business complaining about that decision later, particularly since the difficulties that will accompany having a child while in medical school are completely predictable and obvious. If someone can do this and make it work, that's great, but I'm not going to feel sorry for someone who willingly makes this choice and then complains about how difficult it is.

 

So let's take an analogous situation. Someone who has a low income, who has a physical disability (there are many possible situations) chooses to have a child. Or someone chooses to have a child who was diagnosed prenatally with a severe disability. They knew going in to the situation that there would be challenges and they chose to go ahead. Should they not receive any support? No childcare benefits? No home care nurse? None of the many possible resources? Hey they chose it, they can deal with it.

 

What you are basically saying is that people should wait until their personal situation is perfect before having children. They should be financially stable. They should have enough time in their schedule (what is enough time anyways?).

 

The woman who wrote this article did not ask for special treatment. She struggled through third year as we all do, but with much more on her shoulders. No one is arguing for some kind of special treatment. We are saying that some women choose for whatever reason to have children during med school or residency and they don't want to be judged for it. Seriously we can't win. If we have kids during our training then we are bad mothers for not spending enough time with our kids and bad doctors for not being committed to medicine. If we wait until after training then we are selfish for focusing on our careers at the expense of our fertility.

 

I plan on having at least one child during residency. I know it will be hard. I don't look forward to studying for Royal College exams with a toddler running around. But I will do it because I want a family and I also want to be a physician.

[avenir001]

Are you seriously comparing playing a sport with having children?

 

no, i think he's saying that giving up sports is more of a sacrifice than choosing to delay having kids because at least it's not impossible to have kids at 40 whereas by then his prime will have been lost forever *sniff sniff tear tear*

[tallguy408]

Thank you Avenir.

 

Ollie,

I think I made it pretty clear that I am not comparing my sports to childbearing directly. What I said was that I made a sacrifice, which will have LIFELONG impact on me and my happiness. To me, it was a HUGE sacrifice. Also, it is not putting something off, it is totally giving something up. Just because you are too unathletic to play an elite sport or concieve of the value of one, doesn't mean that you get to declare it useless. I don't pretend that my sport is equal to childbirth, but its a big sacrifice nonetheless, no worse I would argue, than icing your ovaries for a couple years until you are in a more suitable position to bear children.

 

And yes, in a way, I am saying a women, who chooses to raise two infants with no backup or safety net, IN MED SCHOOL, is not committed to her career. What an absolutely stupid thing to do. It would be like me choosing to play in the NBA and try med school. Someone serious about their training would choose oppurtune times for life events, such as childbirth, not just have them whenever they felt like it. They would also be smart enough to realize how important their career was to them, and therefore would have 2-3 backup/support systems in place to help them cope, rather than barfing their problems all over everyone else and expecting help.

[unknown user 7]

In a debate like this, I think we should just all agree that I'm right. .

[cluelesswonder]

mei, awesome post. if you don't mind me asking, what type of medicine are you interested in pursuing now?

 

i think it's surprising that people haven't mentioned that perhaps we should be making it easier for parents who want to enter med school because they may actually make BETTER doctors. a number of schools now (mac and u of c come to mind, but there are others) say that they WANT people from different backgrounds who have deviated from the traditional pre-med path. the wealth of experiences such applicants have often make them better physicians. so if schools are telling non-traditional applicants that they want to take them in, why aren't they doing more to make it possible for them to succeed once they're there?

 

also, devari, when you're talking about the average age of women entering med school, i don't think that's a very useful statistic. the vast majority of people i know entering med school next year are doing so right out of undergrad, which would make them 21-23. that 25-year-old average has to be skewed by older applicants. so even if the average age is 25, there are going to be a bunch of women who are entering when it's not practical to put off having kids for much longer. we don't know how old maya is, but it's possible that she didn't HAVE the choice to wait.

 

furthermore, you're only talking about postponing kids until after med school, and ignoring the fact that having a baby during residency would probably be even MORE difficult. are you expecting all women entering med school to wait as much as 9 years for a baby, not even including fellowships?

 

if any of you have seen "sicko," the new michael moore movie about health care, you'll have seen that canada and the US are already pretty far behind in the type of social support we provide to our citizens (child care, mat. leave, etc.). it's disappointing to me that even among the medical school community there isn't more interest in trying to make things better.

[Mitch]

Mei, fantastic post. I hope that I will have the opportunity to work with insightful and empathetic colleagues such as you one day.

Devari, I was once a perfect parent too. And, like you, that was before I had children. Tallguy, my DH gave up a national position (and career) in a sport he loved to go to med school. He is currently a specialist surgeon. And he will be the first to tell you that the sacrifice of giving up that sport and its opportunities is nothing compared to having children...and he will also tell you that medicine is still just a job. "Icing ones ovaries" for a few years is not at all comparable. I truly hope life works out for both of you the way you intend and have planned.

As for the rest of us mere mortals, maybe we can try to support one another so that we all can make our lives work as best we can, with or without kids. But definitely without judgment and criticism.

[Scarlett]

I can’t believe the disrespectful turn that has occurred in this discussion (e.g. “icing your ovaries”?? Tallguy, I hope that your medical education teaches you a little bit of tact – if anything this again just illustrates the uneven burden of childbearing/childrearing that society places on women).

 

Obviously people have some differing opinions on the central topic of the article, which seems to be whether or not medical school/residency is or even should be “family friendly”. Some have emphasized that it is a personal choice to decide to become a parent, but society plays a huge role in influencing people’s choices. There is such a diversity (e.g. gender, age, cultural backgrounds, etc) of people entering into medicine nowadays that it is impossible to account for everyone’s individual experiences and life circumstances when passing judgments about whether or not it is a good decision to have children while training to become a physician.

 

So many factors can influence a person’s decision to have children that sometimes individual choice can fall by the wayside, for example unintended pregnancies, partner/life/cultural/biological pressure to have children, just to name a few… HAVING CHILDREN IS NOT ALWAYS ABOUT PERSONAL CHOICE!! There is an inherent unpredictability involved with pregnancy, not to mention many complex social influences (which, I’m sorry are NOT the same as deciding whether or not to play pro-basketball!! That is a career choice, not a life choice…)

 

For people to make value judgments on whether or not it was a “good idea” for Maya (the UBC mother) to have one or both children is not only completely irrelevant to her situation, but also none of their business. The fact of the matter is many individuals DO raise children while they are in medical school/residency, many find ways to manage the demands medicine and child rearing (often with sacrifices along the way), but some do not (which is a significant loss to Canadian society as someone already pointed out because time and energy was invested into training that individual whose role as a physician is in very high demand).

 

Devari keeps referring to statistics about the “average age” of women entering medicine and what age women are having children, etc. but those numbers are JUST STATS!! They are averages for a reason because there are many women ABOVE the average age entering medicine in their late 20’s or 30’s who do not have the luxury of “waiting things out” providing all other societal influences in their lives allowed them to do so.

 

I think that it is extremely important to provide support to men and women who decide to parent while in medical school/residency and ensure the system enables people to lead a balanced personal life while obtaining their training… how to go about this I’m not sure exactly, but I find it very odd that there is so little emphasis on maintaining the health and wellness of our health care providers when we are supposed to be role models for health. And by support I don’t mean “special treatment”… people who are not parenting can use that support or time (or whatever it looks like) to pursue their own endeavours.

[janieK]

Reading this thread, makes me ashamed to be in medical school...the suggestion that interviews should have revealed her lack of commitment is ridiculous...

 

Finally I am most upset that no one has recognized what Maya has done. Read her artcile again. She is not asking for special treatment. She has taken responsibility for her own choices (as many are accusing her of not doing), by choosing not to pursue this career...

 

Those of you who said that it is personal are right. We should respect that this is her personal decision...

 

In any case, I hope that this spirited discussion continues, and everyone at least tries to see things from a perspective other than their own.

 

Amen.

 

Thanks for your post, Mei. It brought my BP back down

 

I get the feeling that so many posters have tried (or are trying) so hard to get into medical school that the idea of someone choosing to take a different path is like heresy to them. I (fervently) hope that some of the posters are excessively judgmental of Ms. Adam's choices partly because of the anonymity of posting in a forum such as this one. I hope they would not be so dismissive and judgmental of Ms. Adam were they ever to meet her in person. Seeing things in such a "black-or-white" way is, to me, a hallmark of lack of life experience. YMMV.

 

On a related note, I remember a time I took part in med school interviews as a student interviewer. Myself and a staff person interviewed a candidate who looked average on paper. During the interview, both the staff person and I were concerned (independently) regarding some "black-or-white" attitudes towards certain subjects; nothing overt, like some of the comments in this thread, but enough to give us pause. Both the staff person and I "red-flagged" this candidate (which is not a good thing); to the best of my knowledge, this individual was not offered a place in the incoming class.

 

It's one thing to be passionate about your point of view. It's quite another to be inflexible or unable to empathize with someone else's.

 

janieK

[The Law]

Mei, fantastic post. I hope that I will have the opportunity to work with insightful and empathetic colleagues such as you one day.

Devari, I was once a perfect parent too. And, like you, that was before I had children. Tallguy, my DH gave up a national position (and career) in a sport he loved to go to med school. He is currently a specialist surgeon. And he will be the first to tell you that the sacrifice of giving up that sport and its opportunities is nothing compared to having children...and he will also tell you that medicine is still just a job. "Icing ones ovaries" for a few years is not at all comparable. I truly hope life works out for both of you the way you intend and have planned.

As for the rest of us mere mortals, maybe we can try to support one another so that we all can make our lives work as best we can, with or without kids. But definitely without judgment and criticism.

 

Can I get an amen??? lol