How cut-throat are we talking here?

[peachy]

I've also heard that U of T has much more frequent testing than other schools, like something on the order of a test every 2 weeks.

Like Ollie said, this is completely a myth. I have no idea how often other schools have tests, but ours are approximately every six weeks.

[slowly_but_surely]

I am sorry for offending anyone in any way. I am sure all medical schools in Canada have an accredited curriuculum that prepares physicians well. It probably has to do with the person more than with the school.

 

The issue of medicine blows up in my face everday. Its probably an isolated incident, and I do apologize for my hard post. I just keep thinking if that particular doctor who treated my father took it more seriously...then..... But as others have mentioned, ones training probably has little to do with the type of physician they will be. It probably has more to do with how they use their training.

 

I have decided to remove myself from this forum.

 

Good luck all future doctors!

[KMG007]

I am sorry for offending anyone in any way. I am sure all medical schools in Canada have an accredited curriuculum that prepares physicians well. It probably has to do with the person more than with the school.

 

Hi Slowly_but_surely Please do not think you offended me (and most people on here just debate and are probably not offended either). I can only imagine what it is like as I have never lost a direct family member during my lifetime. My parent's lost a child after some physician errors were made. It was not a direct result necessarily of the error but it did not help and I know my mom and dad were angry for quite a long time. I'm not sure how you do not take that personally. I am not sure how long ago you lost your dad, but I imagine it will be awhile before it becomes easier. Granted some say easier never happens, but my mom felt that it did get a bit easier. I hope it does get easier for you to where you can focus more on the times you guys had together and perhaps that drive you have to be the best doctor you can be.

 

I wish you the best of luck with your future, and hope you continue to have other family members who can be very supportive.

[futuredoc]

From what I've seen, residency match rates are about the same between Queen's, U of T, and Western. Can you back up your assertion that U of T students score the best?

 

As for coasting through other medical schools, the hell are you talking about? All medical schools mean HARD work. U of T does not cover more material than the Western or Queen's or Ottawa, or UBC, or McGill, or UC, etc. Seriously, perhaps you should stop bashing other schools and understand that almost every Canadian medical school has the same standard of training, and is absolutely excellent.

 

Woah. I did not go that far in my statement. I for one recognize all medical schools in Canada to be equals (thankfully our country makes sure of it) in quality. What I am trying to say is that marking schemes in some schools foster competition, while others get rid of it. Even so, I would go to any medical school that accepts me .

[OneDay]

I definitely agree with what you are saying Dr. Happy Hippo. I really do. But I guess there are those fortunate applicants with multiple interviews who are pretty certain they are getting in this year, and they have to figure out which school would suit them best. I would be jumping for joy if I was granted acceptance (or even an interview) at ANY Canadian school.

[Lactic Folly]

It seems like people might have different ideas as to what is meant by the term "competitiveness." There is motivation and ambition to be the best that one can be, akin to competing against oneself. However, the negative side of competition can be associated with individuals expending their time and energies undercutting others rather than bettering themselves, thus leading to the benefit of no one.

[bcgirl33]

My oh MY, the question is not what the comments of slowly-but-surely have been, but rather those of bcgirl.

I would have chosen not to response, but there is an overlooked problem here... I am sorry to have to say this, but reading your question really makes me wonder whether you have really considered why it is you want to pursue medicine... to me, it seems that you haven't really considered this occupation thoroughly, nor the extent or depth of your motivation. Just as some advice, you may want to do so prior to progressing further.

 

Are you kidding me? No... seriously? How could you have any idea what the extent or depth of my motivation is? You're sorry you "have to" give me advice on my "overlooked problem"? Good grief.

 

I put out a question to an open forum about the level of competition at UofT since I often hear rumours, and as Ollie has pointed out it is a well-known myth, that UofT is more competitive than most. Thank you to people who shared their 2 cents and experiences, it is really valuable to have your insight. I can see that asking "is it worth it" I probably poorly expressed myself. I'm pretty sure all of us here are willing to sacrifice a great deal, hence we're here on a premed forum... you get the rest. I'm pretty sure most of us here would also attend any school we are lucky enough to get into. I am just totally amazed that you have the cojones to write something so inconceivably self-righteous and, at the same time, ignorant. I was hoping for someone to shed light on the issue, not to be belittled from your comfy anonymous armchair.

 

Wow few things get me angrier than that. Okay... lol I'm sorry but I'm outta here. If anyone has any other experience/info on UofT to share, please put it out there -- it's all really helpful. peace.

[tallguy408]

It's the opinions of masochistic, misguided people such as Dr. Happy Hippo that medicine continues to experience such issues with quality of life and happiness.

 

bcgirl33 is absolutely correct and more than justified in wondering about the quality of life and working environment she will be facing at UofT. For the official record, my experiences with UofT have been very positive, and my friends that attend UofT attest to the same. It may have a slightly more competitive feel to it, but I would attribute this to UofT being the top choice of many of our best and brightest incoming medical students. That being said, I sincerely doubt that the calibre of their students is severely higher than any other medical program in the country. Although many bright students choose that location, a large number also choose to go elsewhere based on family, personal or other interests. I think a medical education at UofT would be very good, and as has been said already on this thread, the support is excellent in medical school.

 

bcgirl33, I commend your forward thinking and regard for your health and happiness as well as those you value now and in the future. There is something to be said for a doctor who values these, unlike SOME OTHERS who continue to think (quite anciently) that doctors need to be mindless automatons working themselves to death without any regard for anything except work. Medicine is a job. An excellent job, the best in the world for me and many others. But it's just a job. One aspect of your life. To make it your ENTIRE life is to waste your life. I love learning, and will continue to do so for my whole life, but this does not mean submitting everything I value to entertain the idea of being the "perfect" doctor.

 

Dr. Happy Hippo, if you are in med, you really need to get some balance. That should have been what got you in to med school in the first place. If you aren't in med yet, get some balance and diversity or good luck ever getting in. Your opinions stem from an old and out-dated line of thinking, and will never fly in today's emerging medical community. If you should take occasion to disagree, I would invite you to post your thoughts. I would be happy to show you LOADS of research into quality of life and the impact on care and outcomes.

 

Word.

[nutritional_lee]

It's the opinions of masochistic, misguided people such as Dr. Happy Hippo that medicine continues to experience such issues with quality of life and happiness.

 

bcgirl33 is absolutely correct and more than justified in wondering about the quality of life and working environment she will be facing at UofT. For the official record, my experiences with UofT have been very positive, and my friends that attend UofT attest to the same. It may have a slightly more competitive feel to it, but I would attribute this to UofT being the top choice of many of our best and brightest incoming medical students. That being said, I sincerely doubt that the calibre of their students is severely higher than any other medical program in the country. Although many bright students choose that location, a large number also choose to go elsewhere based on family, personal or other interests. I think a medical education at UofT would be very good, and as has been said already on this thread, the support is excellent in medical school.

 

bcgirl33, I commend your forward thinking and regard for your health and happiness as well as those you value now and in the future. There is something to be said for a doctor who values these, unlike SOME OTHERS who continue to think (quite anciently) that doctors need to be mindless automatons working themselves to death without any regard for anything except work. Medicine is a job. An excellent job, the best in the world for me and many others. But it's just a job. One aspect of your life. To make it your ENTIRE life is to waste your life. I love learning, and will continue to do so for my whole life, but this does not mean submitting everything I value to entertain the idea of being the "perfect" doctor.

 

Dr. Happy Hippo, if you are in med, you really need to get some balance. That should have been what got you in to med school in the first place. If you aren't in med yet, get some balance and diversity or good luck ever getting in. Your opinions stem from an old and out-dated line of thinking, and will never fly in today's emerging medical community. If you should take occasion to disagree, I would invite you to post your thoughts. I would be happy to show you LOADS of research into quality of life and the impact on care and outcomes.

 

Word.

 

Great post, tallguy408

[KMG007]

I some how see this forum getting locked with all the personal attacks. It is unfortunate that while writing in forums (or say msn) posts can be taken the wrong way. I hope Dr Happy Hippo was not trying to attack bcgirl, and maybe wrote it before he stopped and thought more about it. I think the original question that most people thought was a reasonable question was is UofT cut throat to which a number of students in the class such as Ollie said in fact it is not. I hope that answers your question bcgirl

[mayantemple]

Dr. Happy Hippo, I disagree with a lot of what you've said. But I also think you're confused about what bcgirl meant by COMPETITION. The type of competition bcgirl was worried about (as I understand it, sorry if it's mistaken) includes increased hostility & bitterness if someone does better than you, sabotage, backstabbing, and using people as rungs on a ladder just to advance. This is different from seeing someone do well, admiring them for it, and using that information to try to better yourself. I think a lot of us, as premeds, have seen/experienced the former kind of competition, and would rather not deal with it more than necessary. That said, a lot of posts on this forum have reassured me that while all med schools are competitive, hopefully the bad kind wouldn't be a significant problem at any Canadian school.

[halijon]

Anyone with a true passion for medicine no doubt prepared in detail for their interviews and came across the Mcmaster document highlighting how excessive piety all too often creeps into medical school applicants who haven't yet formed a mature, balanced perspective on life.

 

Looks like a hippo's fallen into that trap. I sure hope it finds its way out. 6 months of medical school usually does the trick, but not for everyone. When I was taking first year medical school courses as a part of my graduate degree at a so called top level American college, we had a student hide important texts in the lab and in the library. Not that I think that happens at UofT, but personally, I'd say it's both resonable and mature to explore any rumors of cutthroatlyness that are out there.

[estairella]

My oh MY

 

No, actually, medicine is a career. It's true that it's a career with long hours, but you work no more and no less than lawyers and investment bankers (80+ hours a week in the beginning, easing off as you advance), or even many engineers and scientists. Do you also fault those rare investment bankers who don't make their life revolve around money, despite it being the core of their profession?

 

Whether being a doctor is a fulfilling career or not is entirely predicated on your personal beliefs and attitudes, so if you are passionated and want to dedicate your entire life to your profession (who needs a family or friends anyways, right?), good on you. That doesn't in any way make you a better doctor than someone who's desire to be a doctor stems from wanting a stable, well-paying job (not saying this is bcgirl's reason). Your "drive" is important insofar as it shields you from giving up, but what actually makes a good doctor is much simpler than that: good communication skills, good clinical skills and the willing to adapt/learn.

 

I am more than willing to give-up anonymity in this regard, and would even be happy to state my opinions with you directly, which for the matter, are unchanged. I would rather support a doctor who is willing to advance medicine to greater heights than one who is counting the minutes to the end of shift so that they can drive their SUV to their million dollar house, all to sit on a couch and read emotional well-being books by Deepak Chopra. Doctors who are not passionate about their career, who are not willing to give it their all, simply should decide upon a different career. Money is great in others as well.

 

That's great and you are free to support whoever you wish. But that gives you no right to tell others that they're not right for medicine based on your personal preferences for what you think is the ideal doctor. I mean, clearly I think your rude insensitivity towards others means you're going to make a terrible doctor (I can see you telling patients they are "too stupid" to understand diagnoses), but at least I have the courtesy to let you make your own career choice.

[tallguy408]

And, despite hasty predictions to the contrary, maturity has hit an all time high on the pre-med boards!

[DannyB]

Wow...can't we all just get along?

[DD87]

This certainly took a nasty turn. I don't think anyone here can judge something as profound as another's suitability for medicine based on fragmented posts on an internet forum. I think bcgirl's initial question is fair, important, and does not reflect a lack of dedication.

 

That being said, through some correspondence with U of T students I have found out that their testing is roughly every 6 weeks, along with assignments. This is (I think) on par with most Ontario schools, except for Queen's which seems to only have formal exams every 4 months. I can personally see that as being less stressful, but I'm sure others may prefer the more regular testing.

 

Does anyone know how often Mac tests its students?

[estairella]

Wow estairella, you are full of contradictions, which makes you a hypocrite! Bravo to you! Like would always support like, enough said.

 

Remember how you said your life should revolve around constantly striving to become the epitomic ideal of a physician? I don't recall me saying the same thing. Yes my post was quite jerk-ish , but how I act on an online forum in no way reflects on how I would act in another setting (whether that be inter-personal, educational, professional, etc.) as I personally believe that it is appropriate for one to act differently depending on context - rather than always acting like a perfect physician in every context.

 

You are the one here who says all brilliant clinicians "have DEDICATED their life to learning and practicing excellence", which you have not demonstrated. So simply according to your own beliefs, you are not on the road to becoming one.

 

EDIT: And I think I've said all I needed to say in this partially-hijacked discussion - I agree that it's more fruitful to move back to bcgirl's original topic.

[DiscoDoc]

If Toronto is really that competitive, it probably isn't worth it (especially if you don't thrive on competition).

 

I guess unless one has multiple interviews/offers, beggars can't be choosers. If a person doesn't want their spot at U of T, there are probably 1000 other people who would gladly stomp over their dead carcass to get it.

[zfield]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm hoping someone might be able to shed some light on this for me. As I learn more about different med schools, I find myself evaluating schools based on 'quality of life' as well as quality of education.

 

Toronto is known widely as a top school, except for it's reputation being intensely competitive (significantly more so than UBC, queens or calgary). Yes yes, I understand that we're talking about a range of students, some who compete and others who don't... but from what I keep hearing, the UofT program tends to engender a highly competitive environment... and perhaps unrelated to this, the quality of student life is much lower. There is much more stress, less support, and students are more cut-throat than community-minded.

 

I value my mental and emotional health, and I guess I just want to know... how competitive are we talking here? Beyond a healthy dose? Is it worth it?

 

Skipped through the previous bunch of posts but thought I'd respond back. I'm a first year student at U of T. I have to say that the environment is not at all competitive from my point of view. That being said, if others are having different experiences, I think that has a lot to do with their mentality going in.

 

Now I do hope to contend for a competitive residency program (yes it's early and no most people have not decided this at this point) so I plan to keep my marks in the Honours range (HPF system, some controversy about the effectiveness of this system because it 'may' punish or reward students based on prior learning, e.g. Anatomy undergrad = higher mark in anatomy, etc.). I am also doing summer research in my intended field, and plan to shadow a physician in the (maybe) not too distant future.

 

Still, I'm having a great time this year, and I think you'd hear the same from a large majority (upwards of 80%) of my classmates. Those most stressed include students with non-science or non-life sci backgrounds who find the material more foreign than others, and certain individuals with a(n unhealthily) high level of expectation for themselves.

 

I think my point is that most people love med school and have a lot (maybe too much) fun. It is what you make of it, and while everyone will do what is best for him or herself to get to the desired destination (shadowing, research, electives), any story of 'cutthroat competition' is probably fabricated.

 

Good luck

 

zfield

UT Meds 1T1

[TidusAlexandros]

After reading most of the relevant posts, I'd thought I'd put in my two cents (for whatever it's worth). I absolutely agree with zfield's assessment of our medical school. The U of T reputation of being "intensely competitive" is vastly overblown in my opinion. Sure, the vast majority of us want to do well and get Honours, but not at the expense of putting others down (n.b. if any prospective medical student is worried about the difficulty of achieving an Honours mark at U of T, please don't stress about it too much. Given that our test averages have been hovering around the high 70s low 80s with a small SD, I believe that a sizable majority of us gets Honours).

 

In terms of the OP's concerns about the quality of student life, less support, more stress, etc - I think that depends on the individual. The medical school experience is what you make of it. You COULD sit around all day and night studying or you could join the different clubs and community affairs programs that are offered here and have fun with your fellow medical school colleagues (e.g Daffydil).

 

It's true that we have exams once every month on average but I would much rather have it this way compared to Queens for example where they have an entire semester's worth of material tested on at once.

 

So sure there are cons to coming to Toronto (e.g. cost of living), but "being intensely competitive" isn't one of them.

[LaVieEnRose]

As zfield alluded to, competitiveness depends on the individual not the school. If you're concerned about your standing relative to other people, then any school would be competitive. On the other hand, if you focus on your own achievement and enjoying yourself, then I doubt you would feel competition anywhere.

[hp18]

U Of T is my first choice....whatever happens....I will always prefer it over Mac & Ottawa. UoT Med school has great reputation not only in Canada but worldwide.

[notERDoc]

U Of T is my first choice....whatever happens....I will always prefer it over Mac & Ottawa. UoT Med school has great reputation not only in Canada but worldwide.

 

uhhhhuhhh... alrighty then, glad we got that sorted out...!