pro forma

[scoobydoo]

I'm worried.

 

So far I have only received interview invites from places that I rotated through on electives. I always got stellar evals on my away rotations. All other places that have made interview selections have declined to interview me.

 

This makes it pretty obvious that my application is not great.

 

Do certain schools and programs make a point to interview all people who have rotated through? Or is it more commonplace to only interview people they like?

 

I'm concerned that if I'm only getting pro forma interviews(aka interviewing everyone who rotated through a certain school regardless of likelihood of actual match success) that I won't match and will be stuck with something I hate. I don't want to back up with family...

[Lactic Folly]

Depends on the program. Some do interview all their elective students, but others do not consider electives at their program as they realize booking them can be difficult, and time and human resources for interviews can be limited. Therefore, it's not hard to find people who tell stories like "I did an elective there and *still* didn't get an interview!!" Remember, you only need one school to rank you high to match, and those stellar evals should help. Do have a backup plan, but don't apply to family medicine just because everyone else is, if it isn't truly your backup plan..

[scoobydoo]

. Therefore, it's not hard to find people who tell stories like "I did an elective there and *still* didn't get an interview!!"

 

Add me to the club. Just got a rejection today from a place I thought I did well at. The PD even told me that I definitely had an interview there. I didn't even ask - the PD came out and said it. Oh well.

 

I'm starting to feel like one of those people who go to Vegas and put their $100000 on black. The regrets of ever doing medical school are starting to set in.

 

I don't know about back ups. All I do know is that there aren't many fields in medicine that interest me, nor I see myself doing for the rest of my life. Any back up that I need to choose is so that I can help pay off my enormous debt. Otherwise I'd walk away completely.

 

Which brings me to my next question: which field has the easiest residency that isn't family medicine?

[Lactic Folly]

If the PD explicitly told you that you had an interview, I would definitely make a polite inquiry. Nothing to lose at this point.. shows interest, and mistakes do happen.

 

When did your doubts about medicine begin? Is CaRMS stress a factor?

 

I would note that "easiest" is very subjective, and has to involve consideration of your personality/work style/values etc. compared to the characteristics of the field you are considering. As an example, family medicine can be customized to offer quite good working hours, yet it won't be easy if you really dislike the field, as you've noted.

 

And at this point, on a logistics note, wouldn't you be looking at 2nd round anyway if you haven't applied to anything other than your desired specialty + possibly family? I know it will be hard, but right now try to focus on rocking the interviews you do have. People's chances are often best at their home school where they are best known, and it sounds like that those who know you, like you, so it's possible to match at home even with few away interviews. After interviews, you can consider your options as to what to rank, and whether to go to 2nd round (don't ask me how it happens, but sometimes people have ended up getting what they wanted then) or even wait until the following year.

[scoobydoo]

I might as well talk to the PD of that particular program. You're right: I have nothing to lose at this point.

 

My doubts about medicine began as the interview rejections started piling up, and I took a look at my bank account. Then I thought to myself: "I have almost a decade of education, and a debt of more than one-hundred-thousand-dollars, and I likely won't have my desired career at the end of this long road". I wish I had these doubts before I even signed up on the first day of first year. I can count all of my interview invites on one hand without using all of my fingers. It's embarrassing.

 

Easiest is a subjective term, that is true. What I mean by easiest is least amount of hours at work. If I'm going to have to backup into another residency that I don't particularly care for, then it might as well be the one with the best hours. I'm not including family medicine in this because its near impossible to switch out of family medicine unless you do a coercive return-of-service agreement or a re-entry position, neither of which I will consider. Whereas, a five year program allows me to have five years of funding that may come in handy later.

 

I am very skeptical about going into the 2nd round at all. The last few years had very little to offer, and this one will be no exception. I'm sure that most of the other unmatched candidates are going to be applying for the odd position in the second round that isn't obviously undesirable. So, if I don't match to it, then I'm stuck in the second round for every subsequent match. What's the point of that?

 

This is very strange. I'm normally a very optimistic person. Even when applying to medical school I didn't have these worries. I think its because CaRMS is a one-shot-deal. Miss out on it once, and its basically game over. Unmatched applicants who apply in the first round the next year rarely ever get what they want, which makes me feel that doing research for that limbo year is fruitless. At this point all I'm thinking about is how to pay my debts off as fast as I can, because I know there is a big possibility that I won't be practicing medicine at all.

[noncestvrai]

I don't see a lot of residencies in which the first year isn't a pain in the arse...

 

Maybe at a few programs in pathology where you can tailor your R1 year...but starting R2, I think most lab medicine specialties, derm, rad onc, nuc med, path, physiatry, psych could be "chiller", but that's a matter of perspective, obviously.

 

Now, the economy is bad, I would stick to the guaranteed residency job though...BUT if you really don't want to practice medicine, there are a lot of med-related jobs out there...

 

noncestvrai

[scoobydoo]

I don't see a lot of residencies in which the first year isn't a pain in the arse...

 

Maybe at a few programs in pathology where you can tailor your R1 year...but starting R2, I think most lab medicine specialties, derm, rad onc, nuc med, path, physiatry, psych could be "chiller", but that's a matter of perspective, obviously.

 

Now, the economy is bad, I would stick to the guaranteed residency job though...BUT if you really don't want to practice medicine, there are a lot of med-related jobs out there...

 

noncestvrai

 

I think the only one that makes sense for me from a backup standpoint is path/lab med. I hated psych, wasn't particularly keen on MSK and rehab, and rad onc/nuc med/rads/derm are far too competitive for me.

 

What med-related jobs exist, and how do I go about finding them? I'm sure an MD is worth at least something out in the real world.

[noncestvrai]

Working in consulting, in research, pharma, teaching...

 

Unless working in medicine = shoot yourself, I would stick with med nowadays.

 

Path/lab med can be a great career.

 

noncestvrai

[Lactic Folly]

noncestvrai is right, the security is definitely a plus, especially since you haven't mentioned that there is an alternate career you are passionate about and willing to forego job security in order to pursue.. would be unfortunate to end up in a non-med job that is both unsatisfying and less stable. If by desired career, you mean matching to your desired specialty, I would consider that for many fields in medicine, there are so many options to tailor your practice. For example, the work of a reproductive endocrinologist / general ob/gyn / urogynecologist are so different, yet they all fall under o&g. Despite the specialty stereotypes, there is a wide range of personalities that can thrive in each field..

 

Anyway, I thought there were quite a few interesting options in the 2nd round last year. And there is the option of applying to the US the following year. Both routes have offered success to some. My personal feeling has always been that the critical point was medical school admissions, and that CaRMS, despite the stress, at least guaranteed me a future career as some type of physician in some part of Canada. Medical training opens doors.. once you've started practicing and paid down your debt, you are not confined to a single career path.. but it is a great background/fallback to have.

[svp2k5]

Add me to the club. Just got a rejection today from a place I thought I did well at. The PD even told me that I definitely had an interview there. I didn't even ask - the PD came out and said it. Oh well.

 

I'm starting to feel like one of those people who go to Vegas and put their $100000 on black. The regrets of ever doing medical school are starting to set in.

 

I don't know about back ups. All I do know is that there aren't many fields in medicine that interest me, nor I see myself doing for the rest of my life. Any back up that I need to choose is so that I can help pay off my enormous debt. Otherwise I'd walk away completely.

 

Which brings me to my next question: which field has the easiest residency that isn't family medicine?

 

This may sound harsh, but why did you go to medical school in the first place if there was so little about it that interests you? There must have been other reasons besides wanting to get into a very specific specialty.

 

Have you looked into many other specialties besides the one you applied for? As someone mentioned, most specialties offer a wide variety of careers and you have the option of really tailoring it to what interests you. Unfortunately at this point it may be a little late for some of them, but you are guaranteed a spot in a canadian school.

 

As an aside, I have heard that Pathology is actually quite competitive this year (lots of interest in the few available spots).

[scoobydoo]

This may sound harsh, but why did you go to medical school in the first place if there was so little about it that interests you? There must have been other reasons besides wanting to get into a very specific specialty.

 

Have you looked into many other specialties besides the one you applied for? As someone mentioned, most specialties offer a wide variety of careers and you have the option of really tailoring it to what interests you. Unfortunately at this point it may be a little late for some of them, but you are guaranteed a spot in a canadian school.

 

As an aside, I have heard that Pathology is actually quite competitive this year (lots of interest in the few available spots).

 

I went to medical school because I wanted a career that was intellectually and academically challenging, professionally rewarding, stable, and remunerated fairly. I could wax prophetic about how "I wanted to help people", but really, a garbage collector helps far more people than a doctor could ever hope to.

 

I started off considering family, but after talking to family doctors and experiencing it first hand in medical school, I decided that it was not the right fit for me. The future of the field is tenuous, the scope broad yet very superficial, the job satisfaction seems to be very low, and the pay is insulting. I would not enjoy it. If I were to "settle for family" I would not be doing the general public any good since I have no interest in the field. I wont be applying for it in the 2nd round. I mention all of this because anyone can do family if they apply, so its not like I have to go unmatched. Id rather go unmatched, though.

 

The truth of the matter is that there are major differences in each field of medicine, and some people are a good fit for them, and some are not. Nobody who has not gone through medical school can find out until they experience it, which is why I was clueless when I applied. I went into medicine because I thought I would be able to find a good fit,and I gave every rotation a chance. I found my fit, but it is unlikely I will be successful in obtaining it. Unfortunately I did not find another field that I feel fits my personality and future plans.

 

If you're trying to insinuate that I shouldnt have been admitted to medical school in the first place, then all I can say is that I wish I hadnt. Id not be in so much debt now. But really, could you see yourself doing a job you absolutely hate for the next 40 years of your life? If you say yes, youre a fool.

 

And you say path is getting hard to get now? So there goes my possible backup too. Please shoot me.

[mg83]

I hear you...its so frustrating to fall in love with a competitive specialty, go through the torture of CaRMs and then be told you have to settle. I kinda have this fear that if i get my second choice for specialty I will end up hating it and subsequently looking to do something outside medicine with my "useful" Bsc or MD. I guess my only advice is to try out whatever you match to for the year and if it is really unbearable then try to switch or go to the states or something. This is probably what i'll end up doing as the liklihood of me getting the specialty I love is now remote. It totally sucks that you can't do what you like and that there is so much rejection in CaRMS. Hang in there...there are many others who feel like you do...trust me.

[svp2k5]

If you're trying to insinuate that I shouldnt have been admitted to medical school in the first place, then all I can say is that I wish I hadnt. Id not be in so much debt now. But really, could you see yourself doing a job you absolutely hate for the next 40 years of your life? If you say yes, youre a fool.

 

I wasn't trying to insinuate that at all. The point I was trying to make was that there were reasons why you chose to go to medical school and it probably had nothing to do with what specialty you would do. I think there are many aspects of medicine that are maintained throughout the different specialties, and that you could be happy with something other than your first choice.

 

To say that you would absolutely hate all other specialties, but would love the one you applied to seems a little dramatic.

 

I guess you are in a tough situation and hopefully it works out for you.

[007]

I've followed this thread, and while I understand your interest in fields outside of medicine if you don't match, I'm not sure why the conclusion you won't. I only applied to 8 programs total and I'm only interviewing at 6 and I don't feel like my chances of matching have gone up in smoke. I know someone who only applied to 2 places because that's all they were interested in.

[Lactic Folly]

scoobydoo - I agree that you cannot know what medical school is truly like until you experience it. By the same token, I would say the same applies to residency and medical practice. I know I've come to a greater understanding about my chosen field just from working in the hospital this year, despite research and multiple electives as a medical student, but it pales in comparison to that of the residents one year ahead of me who are in the department full-time.

 

There are aspects of any job that are hard to appreciate until you're the one working in that position, regardless of electives and talking to people, helpful as they are. Most likely you know of people who changed their minds during residency and tried to switch into another field. I know some who worked hard for a competitive specialty, only to find once in residency that another field was more suitable (not for lifestyle reasons), and transferred.

 

Yes, a medical career is not unique in helping people (in fact I'd say all jobs help people). But I think it is unique in the sheer impact you can have on that central part of people's existences - their health. In what other field do people entrust you with the most intimate details of their lives, allow you to delve physically into their bodies, make decisions regarding interventions that will affect them for better or worse? Every time I write a prescription, I still feel a slight awe that people will go out and take these drugs (with their attendant side effects) merely because I said it would help them. All the reasons for medicine you mentioned still resonate with me.

 

Although family medicine was never near the top of my list, and obviously I am not a FP, I think it fulfills most of those criteria, and prefer it to many fields outside of medicine. Despite the rise of mid-level practitioners, the shortage is massive, especially in underserviced areas. Broad yes, but as for superficial, FPs develop the most expertise in common conditions that don't get referred, as well as health prevention and maintenance at the individual/family level. I would imagine it's quite challenging to determine which common symptoms might be a sign of something more serious.

 

As far as medicine goes, the average pay may not be the greatest, but compare it to the plight of sessional lecturers who have a PhD, perhaps a postdoc, who are making (best guess) a third of what a FP makes, and have contracts for the Sept-Dec term only - who knows if they'll be renewed in January? I did find that medical student electives in family medicine could be a little frustrating since you are starting from scratch with each patient - easier for the doc who already knows their entire history and enjoys more of the 'social' element. This goes back to my point that rotations as a student are often not that reflective of a staff physician's job.

 

I remember the stress of CaRMS. It's not a fun time for you or others in a similar situation. But stress, and the way we perceive situations, feed on each other. At the start, I didn't know if I would match to my choice either. But instead of seeing it as all-or-nothing, a shining podium on one hand and a deep dark pit on the other, I tried to look at it as choosing a dessert from a platter. One of many reasonable options. Good in the sense that no matter what, I'd have a secure residency and career path. If one has financial worries, that's certainly a blessing. For example, if I hadn't gone to medical school, maybe I wouldn't have this debt, but right now perhaps I'd be desperately searching for a job instead of stressed about CaRMS. And maybe I'd end up hating whatever job I found too. Who knows.

 

Of course, there is no right or wrong about anyone's viewpoint. But the reason I'm writing this is because I hope you will avoid turning this into a self-fulfilling prophecy, due to stress causing a less helpful frame of mind. As things stand - what's done is done, you have the interviews that you have, and I would encourage making the most of them. All other things being equal, a program will prefer someone who is enthusiastic and confident about their medical career, which will be difficult if you are carrying around a bunch of negative thoughts. Easier said than done I know, but a few of us have offered some alternative viewpoints, based on the same situation you have presented, that you can try on for size even if you don't agree.

 

You've come this far, are undoubtedly resourceful, and can survive whatever comes next. Too early to predict you'll be doomed to 40 years of misery, anyway Good luck, and keep us posted.