BC Naturopaths imminent to be granted prescribing power/minor surgery/lab/imagi

[NLengr]

Found this article today.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TD4-49H6SKR-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8cd9a40883c1499cf1bb622629ca96a1

 

I mean, why on earth would you advocate vaccinating kids? It's not like smallpox, polio, H. Influenza, HPV, Rubella, Measles, Tetanus or Diphtheria ever harmed anyone?

[Daemos]

any updates?

[wtkchen]

Nope, beside some new pro-naturopath postings (well, interview with ND) at some small BC newspapers:

 

http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_north/northislandmidweek/lifestyles/41326869.html

 

No news coming from either Google News or the BC Ministry of Health.

[da_birdie]

"Critics Object to 'Pseudoscience' Center"

Washington Post Staff Writer

Tuesday, March 17, 2009; Page HE01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/16/AR2009031602139.html?hpid=topnews

 

The impending national discussion about broadening access to health care, improving medical practice and saving money is giving a group of scientists an opening to make a once-unthinkable proposal: Shut down the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of Health.

 

The notion that the world's best-known medical research agency sponsors studies of homeopathy, acupuncture, therapeutic touch and herbal medicine has always rankled many scientists. That the idea for its creation 17 years ago came from a U.S. senator newly converted to alternative medicine's promise didn't help.

 

One interesting comment in the "comments" section:

GWGOLDB wrote:

In my extensive reading about CAM over the years, both the pro and the con sides, I've come to realize that CAM is less medicine than it is a belief system which is especially attractive to those who have problems with authority.

 

Criticisms of CAM are often taken as badly as criticisms of the adherent's religion. The favored CAM modality is not to be questioned, just accepted.

 

Which is why CAM proponents do almost no research. Research is about finding the truth. The true believer already knows the truth.

Funny, I was just looking up the U.S. states that allow naturopaths prescribing/minor surgeries VS the states that has had big issues with evolution/creationism. In my cursory glance I didn't find any obvious patterns though.

[mrgreek]

Speaking from my own experience (I guess technically my father's)... ND's should be limited a lot in their scope of their practice. I'd even go as far as removing their title. Being called doctors in a clinical setting can be deceiving. I think it's the role of physicians (you guys) to actively advocate for limiting their practice (and not only from it expanding) and even reducing it.

My experience with them was based on how they decided to treat my father's prostate rising PSA levels (still waiting for biopsy results). Oregano and Parsley.

He's been taking simvastatin for his high cholesterol, and he advised my dad to stop it. As I mentioned earlier, the whole thing and practice is deceiving to the uneducated in society. So my dad listened... after calling him ****ing nuts, and telling him to go see his real doctor, my dad finally stopped listening to him.

And they analyzed his blood in the office. With a microscope I used in histology (typical university microscope) in third year.

 

So ya, I hope you guys/gals stop any empowering moves by their lobby, in any clinical setting. If my dad had listened to them for more than a few days, there could have been serious complications.

Quakery. Complete quaks.

[mrgreek]

Homeopathic pills are dirt cheap, a few cents per pill and you only take it once in a while

 

 

Bull-shat 100%

They are actually QUITE expensive. Especially for certain medications that are household ingredients, they must be making a killing. My father (and later I) went to a few several ND's, and the average for the medications was about $200 for a small supply.

 

AND, you have to take it quite often for certain 'diseases.' My father was told to take the pills (of oregano and parsley and 'vitamins') 4 times a day.

 

AND, hows about the conflict of interest? ND's selling their drugs? Notice the MD's don't?

[leviathan]

Quakery. Complete quaks.

 

???

 

Ironically, Quaker Oats would probably help lower your cholesterol.

[da_birdie]

Doctors raise concerns over quackery in Google ads

Last Updated: Friday, March 20, 2009 | 11:08 AM ET CBC News

 

Google needs to do a better job of filtering its advertisements and suggested links to avoid sending users to snake-oil-type sites, doctors say in a journal commentary.

 

In this week's issue of the British Medical Journal, Dr. Marco Masoni and colleagues at the University of Florence in Italy said they used Google Italia to search for the keyword "aloe" and found sponsored links to websites recommending aloe arborescens for the prevention and treatment of cancer.

 

Lots of comments generated already. Good to see that the greater majority (70-80%) of readers (that votes in the thumbs-up /-down) seem to be on Western/scientific medicine's side, vs naturopathic/unproven treatments.

[da_birdie]

A website created by the Health Council of Canada to "raise questions, seek answers and generate debate about how to best sustain our publicly-funded health care system"

 

In the Discussions section, there are a few "naturopathic medicine" related topics:

 

1. Is an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure?

 

2. Do we need to lessen our dependence on drugs to treat symptoms and place more emphasis on alternative medicine to assist healing?

[leviathan]

1. Is an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure?

Absolutely. Why do you think physicians are working on reducing cardiovascular risk factors such as cholesterol levels, hypertension, exercising more, etc. What evidence-based interventions will a naturopathic physician do to target risk factors and emhasize prevention?

 

Do we need to lessen our dependence on drugs to treat symptoms and place more emphasis on alternative medicine to assist healing?

We need to focus on whatever interventions, pharmacological or otherwise, will best treat disease. These interventions have to be tested and be both statistically AND clinically significant. The vast majority of naturopaths do not use practices which are proven. The ones that are proven are being adopted by physicians anyhow.

[da_birdie]

Agreed, I was quite surprised to find the topic phrased "Do we need to lessen our dependence on drugs to treat symptoms and place more emphasis on alternative medicine to assist healing? " on an official government discussions website.

 

The topic is inherently biased against western medicine by insinuating it as "treatment of symptoms", while touting alternative medicine as "true healing/cure of the root problem" (what exactly does "to assist healing" mean anyway?) I wonder if they would still think the same if they go through medical/pharmacy school and learn about molecular & clinical pharmacology, and write a few critical appraisal reports that's pass-able.

 

(Or perhaps the topic is trying to ask "With minor self-limiting illnesses, should we place more emphasis on alternative medicine, rather than pharmaceuticals (such as analgesics, antiemetics, antipyretics, etc), to achieve symptom control?")

[LotusLand]

Bull-shat 100%

They are actually QUITE expensive. Especially for certain medications that are household ingredients, they must be making a killing. My father (and later I) went to a few several ND's, and the average for the medications was about $200 for a small supply.

 

Just to clarify, homeopathic pills are a subset of other types of natural medicine and the original poster was correct in saying that there are cheap. Just check out any compounding pharmacy, they cost ~$10 for a vial of 140 pills which can lasts months to years. Please ask yourself if you really know what you are talking about before posting/generalizing.

 

By the way, don't meds for post MI costs several hundred dollars per month. I'm not saying they are not necessary, just that there are examples in allopathic practice where health is costly. At least NDs focus on getting people to change their lifestyles that are the main contributors to CVD.

[NLengr]

Just to clarify, homeopathic pills are a subset of other types of natural medicine and the original poster was correct in saying that there are cheap. Just check out any compounding pharmacy, they cost ~$10 for a vial of 140 pills which can lasts months to years. Please ask yourself if you really know what you are talking about before posting/generalizing.

 

By the way, don't meds for post MI costs several hundred dollars per month. I'm not saying they are not necessary, just that there are examples in allopathic practice where health is costly. At least NDs focus on getting people to change their lifestyles that are the main contributors to CVD.

 

The difference is the meds post MI actually reduce morbidity and mortality and have lots of evidence showing this. The homeopathic meds are just expensive water with NO beneficial effect beyond placebo.

 

I feel comfortable with people spending hard earned cash on the one with proven benefit.

[A-Stark]

Well, they also might be things like St John's Wort - "natural" drugs that will interact with many others, with serious adverse consequences.

 

Homeopathy is a joke, though, which not only ignores but largely contradicts pharmacological principles.

[youngdad]

As one who desires to enter the world of medicine that is based on science, I know that I would never feel comfortable prescribing a placebo. However I am sometimes glad that there are professionals out there that do.

[Laika]

Just to clarify, homeopathic pills are a subset of other types of natural medicine and the original poster was correct in saying that there are cheap. Just check out any compounding pharmacy, they cost ~$10 for a vial of 140 pills which can lasts months to years.

 

Just out of curiosity, how do you decide the dosing on medication that has zero active ingredient? Couldn't the 140 pills last forever?

[da_birdie]

Saw this article listed on google news today so decided to comment.

 

Cinnamon - The Spice to a Healthy Life

http://colorsnw.com/colors/2009/01/12/cinnamon-the-spice-to-a-healthy-life/

 

Cinnamon is as American as apple pie (for which it is also an essential ingredient) and as common as the dirt it resembles in powdered form. It comes on breakfast cereals and sprinkled with sugar on toast for one of the ultimate comfort foods. One company, Cinnabon, has even created a nationwide food franchise around it. It is also a wonder drug.

 

In 2007, a group of Swedish researchers published a paper in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition that described two ways that cinnamon affected blood glucose and diabetes. One was by increasing cells’ receptivity to insulin, so it can absorb the glucose for the bloodstream more efficiently. The other is by slowing down the rapid release of food from the stomach into the small intestines, which can cause Type II Diabetes, as well as Metabolic Syndrome, a combination of high blood sugar, cholesterol and blood pressure.

 

Dr. Ryan Bradley, another naturopath at Bastyr, says there is good evidence that cinnamon and other spices, such as fenugreek, ginger, tumeric and cumin, which are commonly found in Indian curry dishes, help fight all three.

 

Many health practitioners and researchers believe cinnamon has additional benefits, as well. It has been shown to help lower blood levels from of fats and bad cholesterol, which are also partly controlled by insulin.

 

 

Diabetes Care 31:41-43, 2008

Effect of Cinnamon on Glucose Control and Lipid Parameters

CONCLUSIONS—Cinnamon does not appear to improve A1C, FBG, or lipid parameters in patients with type 1 or type 2 diabetes.

 

Diabetes Care 30:2236-2237, 2007

Effect of Cinnamon on Glucose and Lipid Levels in Non–Insulin-Dependent Type 2 Diabetes

This is the first U.S. study to evaluate the effects of cinnamon on blood glucose and lipid levels in individuals with type 2 diabetes. We found that cinnamon taken at a dose of 1 g daily for 3 months produced no significant change in fasting glucose, lipid, A1C, or insulin levels.

... Cinnamon cannot be generally recommended for treatment of type 2 diabetes in an American population.

 

Diabetes Care 30:813-816, 2007

The Effect of Cinnamon on A1C Among Adolescents With Type 1 Diabetes

CONCLUSIONS—Cinnamon is not effective for improving glycemic control in adolescents with type 1 diabetes.

 

J. Nutr. 136:977-980, April 2006

Cinnamon Supplementation Does Not Improve Glycemic Control in Postmenopausal Type 2 Diabetes Patients

We conclude that cinnamon supplementation (1.5 g/d) does not improve whole-body insulin sensitivity or oral glucose tolerance and does not modulate blood lipid profile in postmenopausal patients with type 2 diabetes. More research on the proposed health benefits of cinnamon supplementation is warranted before health claims should be made.

 

____________________________________________________________________

 

So far the "best" evidence for cinnamon for DM is from an article in 2003 done in Pakistan, results of which have yet to be reproduced. In the mean time the naturopaths have been citing "good evidence" that it works for DM, HTN, dyslipidemia; this media even coined it a "wonder drug". I wonder how many naturopaths knowingly withhold disclosing to their clients new evidences that discredit the certain natural products they sell and directly profit from (whether from the profit margin of the products or consultation fees)

 

I suppose by touting their natural products as "scientifically proven" is a great way of enhancing the placebo effect that is one of the basic tenets of naturopathic treatments.

 

But with regards to placebo-based treatments, where is the line between "deception for medical benevolence" and fraud?

 

I'm just glad that people don't OD on Cinnamon.

[da_birdie]

Just to clarify, homeopathic pills are a subset of other types of natural medicine and the original poster was correct in saying that there are cheap. Just check out any compounding pharmacy, they cost ~$10 for a vial of 140 pills which can lasts months to years. Please ask yourself if you really know what you are talking about before posting/generalizing.

 

By the way, don't meds for post MI costs several hundred dollars per month. I'm not saying they are not necessary, just that there are examples in allopathic practice where health is costly. At least NDs focus on getting people to change their lifestyles that are the main contributors to CVD.

 

Alright, let's see some examples in naturopathy where health becomes REALLY Costly:

 

Fees naturopaths charge in Canada:

 

Ontario Association of Naturopathic Doctors

"Recommended Fee Guide for the Professional Services of Naturopathic Doctors"

Based on an hourly rate of $125 - $180 (This does NOT include profit from sales of natural products/supplements, procedures (labs, "Detox", colon hydrotherapy, etc))

 

initial (60-90 min): $125-$240

follow-up: (20-60 min): $45-$180

short consultation: (10-15 min): $25-$50

phone consultation: (5-20 min): $15-$65

 

Anita Bratt, ND - North Vancouver (btw, check out the Autism tab on her website)

 

First visit- 60 min $ 145

2nd & Extended visits - 45 min $ 98

Return visit- 30 min $ 68

 

The following is a list of tests normally ordered at the initial consultation:

 

Organic Acid Test $380

Screens for yeast, bacteria, vitamins, neurotransmitters and metabolic markers. Requires urine sample, collected at home.

 

IgG food allergy test $250

Determines food sensitivities which impact behavior and physical health. Requires blood by finger prick, in office sample collection.

 

Hair analysis $130

Assesses heavy metal toxicity, need for detoxification/chelation, and mineral nutrient status. Requires hair to be at least 2.5 cm or 1 inch in length, sample cut in office.

 

Family physicians make $80-$120/hr after overhead (eg. current BC Hospitalist fees = approx $120/hr). While Naturopaths supposedly make $120-$180++/hr (or MUCH higher with all those natural supplements/add-on tests/chelation/colonic hydrotherapy), with overhead less than an MD's office. Heck, even Internal Medicine specialists make in the $130-170/hr range.

 

Where is the value in healthcare for mad prices like this for just placebo-based "medicine"?

[A-Stark]

That autism page is disturbing:

 

Abnormal development of the brain, immune system dysfunction with autoimmune characteristics, digestive disorders, detoxification impairment, environmental factors (vaccines, heavy metals, chemicals, viruses), and genetic susceptibility combine to produce the variable manifestations of autism spectrum disorder.

 

Quackery, pure and simple.

[UBCmed09]

I wonder how many naturopaths knowingly withhold disclosing to their clients new evidences that discredit the certain natural products they sell and directly profit from (whether from the profit margin of the products or consultation fees)

 

Good question yes, but you miss the point: these people do not for the most part follow the literature, they don't seek scientific evidence for what they do. They simply endorse treatments that someone in their spectrum of legitimacy (be it somebody with a random DTCM, R Acupuncture, HomeoD, god knows what other initials) has touted and which fits with the pseudo-holistic gestalt that they have latched on to. They mean well, and perhaps even do well sometimes (if only through placebo or basic nutritional/lifestyle counselling) but they are certainly a risk to public health if officially endorsed and allowed to essentially stray into medicine (ie. beyond their training).

 

Wow, that's about as inflammatory as I have ever been but I really feel this is a scary move by BC.

[mrgreek]

Just to clarify, homeopathic pills are a subset of other types of natural medicine and the original poster was correct in saying that there are cheap. Just check out any compounding pharmacy, they cost ~$10 for a vial of 140 pills which can lasts months to years. Please ask yourself if you really know what you are talking about before posting/generalizing.

 

By the way, don't meds for post MI costs several hundred dollars per month. I'm not saying they are not necessary, just that there are examples in allopathic practice where health is costly. At least NDs focus on getting people to change their lifestyles that are the main contributors to CVD.

 

lol... you are comparing meds post MI with the cost of oregano and parsley! I did ask myself. In fact, when my father saw an ND, I said to myself "This ND you saw must certainly be a one of a kind" and I went to a few others afterhand. They were all charging ridiculous amounts. All said to take pills 4 -6 times a day... I know what I'm talking about, which is why I posted.

My problem isn't with a drug you may find for 10 dollars that may have 140 pills. My problem is the drugs that cost $100+ for oregano and parsley. You are nitpicking, but so am I, but guess what... my point is the example I have is ridiculous. You can chose MI drugs, statins and the like. But those drugs have a cost to make and produce. Oregano and Parsley, my father actually makes in our backyard. I don't think he can do that with statins.

 

At least ND's focus on changing lifestyle? Big deal, I do that too (a non-physician), and so does my family doc, and so does my father's doc. Lets not put the bar too low.

 

Of course allopathic medicine is costly. Who is denying that? Creating an MRI machine costs $$$, statins cost $$$.

 

 

Quackery, pure and simple.

Well said...

[ploughboy]

They simply endorse treatments that someone in their spectrum of legitimacy...has touted and which fits with the pseudo-holistic gestalt that they have latched on to.

 

I am totally stealing that line and using it!

[psAinCanada]

I've read this thread with great interest. I'm not a doctor or a medical student. Just a BC resident that sees a lot of doctors. Actually, just three, a GP, a rheumatologist, and a dermatologist. I see an accupuncturist too. I was a sceptic about that, but he's been treating my wife's family for years, and I think it works for me. I do all this because I have psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis. I take a lot of medicines.

 

I went to see a naturopath yesterday. I'd never seen one before. I'd read about the proposal to expand their role in BC. I liked the idea of a holistic viewpoint, and was interested in a naturopathic perspective on nutrition and excercise. And I was also a little curious about this debate.

 

It struck me that no "end users" have contributed to this thread. Perhaps I'm not welcome here. But I did want to share an actual, current experience with a practicing naturopath right here in B.C.

 

I made an appointment to a prominent group practice I found on the internet. I picked it because it was within walking distance of my home in Vancouver. I received a five page medical history to fill out and bring to my appointment. It was mostly conventional, with a few new age touches. The first session was to be 90 minutes, and cost $180.

 

First, I got a tour from the receptionist. It reminded me of an asian spa. The clients were mostly middle-aged ladies. The massage rooms looked very nice. I walked by an elderly lady reading in an armchair in another room, in IV in her hand, and was told she was receiving chelation therapy. I was offered herbal tea.

 

Then I met with the ND. Mostly, he heard my medical history. He hadn't read the five page form. I told him about my meds, starting with Humira, a biologic that I take for arthritis. He said he'd never heard of it. I said it's one of the newer biologics, and he looked blank. I told him about my statin, my daily aspirin, and about my ED drugs.

 

He then told me that psoriasis was caused by "toxicities". That all my medications were just hiding symptoms, that they were the worst of the toxins causing my underlying disease. He singled out Humira as a classic example, even though he'd previously said he hadn't heard of it. He also said that cholesterol was not espeically relevant to heart risk.

 

He said I needed to do several tests to establish the "biochemical terrain of your body." He said I could see the receptionist to schedule them and get the pricing, but in the mean time that I would get a quick VEGA test to get the general level of my immune system and cardiovascular system.

 

I waited in reception for the clinical assistant to do the VEGA testing. Basically, it measured electrical resistance from on hand to the other. One meridian line measured the immune system, the other my heart. The clinical assistant told me that I'm going to need to discuss more heart tests with the doctor, but that my immune system was doing fine.

 

Back to reception, where I paid my $180, and was told that my next visit would be $200 for tests and $85 for the consult. I told him I'd check my calendar and get back to him.

 

I'm not going back.

 

My layperson's assesment is that the whole thing is at best pseudo-science and at worst a fraud. If I continued at this clinic, it was clear there would be pressure to stop my meds. This is despite my explanation that I was especially happy with my newest arthritis medication. Before I took this medication, there were days when I could barely walk. With this medication, I ran for 20 minutes this morning. I don't have as strong a feeling about my statin, but all my other doctors seem in favor of it, so I'm going to stick with that one too. In fact, I think I'll just keep taking everything my regular doctors prescribe.

 

I can only speak about one ND in one city, but I think this practice may be dangerous.

[A-Stark]

What a quack. The immune system test proves *that* beyond a shadow of a doubt. If he didn't even know what Humira was, I shudder to think of what other drugs he's unfamiliar with.

 

(And those biologics are indeed amazing!)

[Laika]

My layperson's assesment is that the whole thing is at best pseudo-science and at worst a fraud. If I continued at this clinic, it was clear there would be pressure to stop my meds. This is despite my explanation that I was especially happy with my newest arthritis medication. Before I took this medication, there were days when I could barely walk. With this medication, I ran for 20 minutes this morning. I don't have as strong a feeling about my statin, but all my other doctors seem in favor of it, so I'm going to stick with that one too. In fact, I think I'll just keep taking everything my regular doctors prescribe.

 

Thanks for sharing your impressions, psAinCanada. Incidentally, there are probably some very good reasons why your physicians are recommending you take the statin. There are mountains of large, peer-reviewed, double-blinded studies which show that statins can be very effective at reducing mortality. Unfortunately, I suspect that many treatments proposed by NDs lack that level of, or often any, evidence.