leviathan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 A better question is, who the heck is going to insure naturopathic doctors to practice medicine? They're going to get sued like crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I was poking around the ND school in BC's website and found this interesting page linked directly from the main page: http://www.binm.org/princeton.html Apparently it's one of the best MEDICAL schools in North America. Also, it has a part time program (evenings and Saturdays)? What the hell? The whole place seems greasy as hell. The whole profession is greasy as hell. The BCMA, CMA, RCPSC and CCFP is being WAY to quiet about this. Speaking of greasiness, did you notice how it said it was on a list that included ONLY 18 other Canadian medical schools, and ONLY 1 other medical school in British Columbia? Nice spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 I wonder what people thought when these ND students walked onto UBC campus and started taking photos? Notice that they are not just graduating, they are graduatiing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I find it funny that they are considering doing this, when an internationally trained physician cannot practice in BC without huge barriers, even after passing all LMCC exams. QFT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Cloak Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 We're witnessing the slow, inexorable collapse of family medicine. It's sad. (I need am emoticon that cries here). PS - Does this mean naturopaths are going to be on call 24-7 to receive the results of these tests they order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I looked up the syllabus for the NP school in BC. Their "Emergency Medicine" course is just a first aid course!!! Hopefully they aren't teaching them to apply cold compresses to carotid arteries to treat strokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 This is ludicrous. I have no other words for it. I can't imagine ANYBODY in their right mind licensing naturopaths to practice MEDICINE. Naturopathy and medicine are two polar opposites. I'll have a tough time dealing with the short-sightedness of the BC government if this goes through. Usually I give most politicians the benefit of the doubt because I know 99% of the time they are trying to help but this is crossing the line. P.S. I'm from Van and I have never heard of the Boucher College...I lol'd at their graduation pic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcwxyz Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I wonder what people thought when these ND students walked onto UBC campus and started taking photos? Notice that they are not just graduating, they are graduatiing! I love what looks like flip-flops on the middle girl. Nice graduation footwear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncestvrai Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Completely insane. I'm saying this because I like BC, and if I ever go back to Whistler on a ski trip and break a leg (god forbid), I sure as hell don't want to see a ND check my leg out in emerg... Or worse, put cold compresses on my open fracture, or chelate de $hit out of my "impure" wound... noncestvrai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Part of me wants to go to law school so I can start sueing these quacks for malpractice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Doctors really have to place a really firm line on who can and cannot practice medicine. We have been ignorant to the politics of health care for far too long. As for the NDs getting this close to becoming FPs: I think that a lot of this has to do with the watering down of physician culture. Think about it: how many hospitals still have true doctor's lounges? Years ago, the physician was a respected member of society who was given high prestige, respect, and remuneration, on the condition that they practice in the most altruistic and responsible ways. The old-school docs would be on call so often that I swear they were in the hospital more than they weren't - society gave them a lot for their constant dedication. Nobody challenged their judgments or their roles. They were trusted by society to be competent, and in turn nobody wanted to usurp their respected roles with quackery. Now that physician pay, especially for primary care, is relatively lower than it was years ago, combined with patients' easier access to medical misinformation thanks to the internet, and the increase in the number of physicians who consider lifestyle the highest priority, the physician does not command the same respect and prestige that society once offered him. This lack of respect, overabundance of misinformation, and relative lack of dedication, is what is driving students away from primary care and into lucrative lifestyle fields, and what is driving other non-medically-trained professionals to usurp the traditional role of the community doctor. It also explains why the public is not exceptionally distressed by this phenomenon. The governing bodies, the general public, and the doctor's themselves are responsible for letting it get this far - too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I think you're looking back into the past with heavily-pink tinted glasses. Prior to medicare, primary care physicians had considerably variable remuneration - some did quite well - and they were particularly overworked and underpaid in rural or smaller centres. I don't think changes in physicians' concern with lifestyle (like not being on-call all the time) have contributed to changes in the degree of respect and prestige they enjoy. Of course, we're past the point where nurses would open doors and fetch coffee for staff physicians - the hospital today is not what it was 40 years ago. But you merely have to look at the preponderance of medically-related TV shows to see that, whatever else has changed, physicians are still accorded a high degree of prestige and respect. Quackery, unfortunately, has existed as long as modern medicine, and people will continue to seek out "alternatives" for many reasons. I highly doubt that NDs have any kind of the support they claim to have in all this. I'm interested to know who they're paying off in the BC government, though - and I can't think of any other reason why such a loony policy would be proposed (though it does kinda make sense that it would occur in BC of all places). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medisforme Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I have been reading through the editorial section of the vancouver sun lately and I am totally shocked that the majority of the letters from the public seem to support the governments actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I have been reading through the editorial section of the vancouver sun lately and I am totally shocked that the majority of the letters from the public seem to support the governments actions. For situations dealing with the public this is the thing to remember: Think of how dumb the average person is. Now realize that 50% of the population is worse than that. Seriously though, there are two problems here: 1) The public has little understanding of medicine or medical training. They can't appreciate differences between MD training and ND training. I think it's beyond the scope of many people to truly appreciate the complexity of medicine or what it takes to make/become an MD.Plus the ND's do a real good marketing campaign to try and look like their education is legit vs. an MD. 2) The average person rarely writes letter to the editor. It's usually only people with very strong opinions. In this case, all the pro "natural" nut bags. Good examples of these people can be seen in 90% of the health news threads on CBC talking about how science/medicine is evil, vaccines hurt your immune system, and how modern medicine is slowly killing us (never mind that out avg. lifespan has gone from 40 to 80 years) etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey799 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Naturopathic physicians trained in drugs Times Colonist (Victoria) Fri 20 Feb 2009 Page: A11 Section: Comment By: Christoph Kind An article Feb. 16 highlighted proposed changes to allow naturopathic physicians (NDs) to prescribe medicine, enhancing patient choice and improving the health-care delivery. These changes reflect the government's commitment to shared scopes of practice, improved access to primary health providers, enhanced disease prevention and greater public choice, while not increasing health-care costs. NDs have the training and experience necessary to know when certain medicines are required. The drugs they will be able to prescribe are in keeping with the competencies of the profession. Naturopathic physicians study pharmacology and pharmacognosy extensively. They prescribe pharmaceuticals safely and for the benefit of patients in many North American jurisdictions. All licensed NDs complete university pre-medical training, then study four years at an accredited naturopathic medical college. The pharmacology training is similar to the training MDs receive. Students must be able to classify and describe the pharmacodynamics, side effects and therapeutic uses of drug prototypes. In addition, the ND must thoroughly understand the pharmacology of all natural substances. Upon graduation, each doctor must pass internationally standardized licensing exams, including pharmacology, before being licensed by the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. Dr. Christoph Kind ND President B.C. Naturopathic Association Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 BS. And what the hell is the College of Naturopathic Physicians of BC? I don't buy any of this for a second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 There is a simple solution to the problem of whether ND's are capable of essentially doing the same job as Family Docs. Make them do the LMCC's and the CCFP exams, or at least just the CCFP exams. If they have the required skills to practice medicine, than they should be able to pass them. But that makes too much sense, and the ND's will resist it tooth and nail (I think we all know why). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Make them do the LMCC's and the CCFP exams, or at least just the CCFP exams. If they have the required skills to practice medicine, than they should be able to pass them. Of course. If the government doesn't require them to, I hope the insurance companies will (somehow). I don't know how these clowns can claim their education is equivalent to an MD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smile Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 this all seems bogus. is any of this really going to happen? why not allow the thousands of IMGs who have graduated from excellent foreign institutions to practice family med? what next? chiropractors can prescribe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mourning Cloak Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 An amusing distinction: Checked our SOPs in the lab and to process a test request we require an MD's signature. (Clinical clerks ordering on inpatients have exceptional status). Note that my lab is not in BC. So, the change to the regulations would permit NDs to order tests, but that doesn't necessarily mean any tests are going to get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest soaring_eagle Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Wow, I can understand why this possibility is generating such a stir. All I can hope for is the best to be done for patients. When money becomes the defining term of healthcare it leads to darkness. With doctor shortages now, it almost seems like a sneaky way to privatize "family doctor care" (ie. family doc is too busy, okay lets go to our ND!! we can get the same treatment, viola plus more). Is it the same treatment? My guess is this amendment would boost ND visits and increase their salaries. But when it comes to healthcare, I hope those who need to stand up for what is right will do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemos Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Personally I would like to "test" this claim that a Natrupaths education is as comprehensive as a Medical school education. As unlikely as this is to ever happen without lots of time, money and people to agree to it, I propose a widespread experiment as follows: Testing fresh graduates and as well those who have just completed their licensing exam, from Medical and Naturopath schools. Choose a handful of Medical schools and...all the ND schools (since there are only a handful that are accredited to train "Naturopathic Medical Doctors" to begin with) Distribute a typical licensing exam from another country (say the Australian AMC exam detailed here: http://www.amc-exam.com/amc-exam-details.html) Grade them then we can have some solid numbers to compare to on how well Naturopaths are actually educated compared to their Medical counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swift Fox Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 I wonder what people thought when these ND students walked onto UBC campus and started taking photos? Notice that they are not just graduating, they are graduatiing! LOL LOL I just got to say I am in love with this picture and all the "doctors" that appear in it! It is like a where's waldo of funnyness. At first glance it looks kinda normal... Then you notice spelling mistakes, goofy footwear etc. LOVE IT! With that said, I think it is time for the CMA to stomp out this insanity. These guys should be "prescribing" over the counter herbal remedies to BC green freaks. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpanishFly Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 There is a simple solution to the problem of whether ND's are capable of essentially doing the same job as Family Docs. Make them do the LMCC's and the CCFP exams, or at least just the CCFP exams. If they have the required skills to practice medicine, than they should be able to pass them. But that makes too much sense, and the ND's will resist it tooth and nail (I think we all know why). exactly. If ND's want the privilege of prescribing meds, than they need to go through the same licensing exams MD's do. Even then, like many others have mentioned, if this is all about improving access to health care, there are many IMG's who have passed these exams in Canada (never mind that many have also practiced several years in their respective countries) and cannot practice here, so why aren't we increasing residency positions for these actual doctors? Also, if ND's want the responsibilities of a family doctor, than maybe we should abolish naturopathy entirely (and maybe have a sub-specialty in medicine for those who wish to study naturopathy on top of their medical training)..I mean I thought it was an 'alternative' for a reason. I believe the public has a right to alternative forms of health care if thats what they want, but physicians also have a right to protect their professional territory...which is exactly what the CMA has been doing by keeping IMG's out. I hate politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leviathan Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 LOL LOL I just got to say I am in love with this picture and all the "doctors" that appear in it! It is like a where's waldo of funnyness. At first glance it looks kinda normal... Then you notice spelling mistakes, goofy footwear etc. LOVE IT! With that said, I think it is time for the CMA to stomp out this insanity. These guys should be "prescribing" over the counter herbal remedies to BC green freaks. Nothing more. I love the guy in the back 2nd from the left. He looks like he's thinking, "WTF kind of mistake did I make becoming a naturopath!?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.