wtkchen Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 [uPDATE Apr 10] It has happened There is a re-post of my thread under "Primary Care Residencies" sub-forum http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31735 What are your opinions? Has this issue been raised in the med school classrooms yet? A concerned BC family physician Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackJack Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 This is why we need a stronger physician lobby. The CMA just isn't cutting it. What we're seeing here is one of many proposed relatively inexpensive ways of mitigating the primary care shortage. Instead of paying general practitioners more, or changing the residency matching system back to the rotating internship year, governments are considering the use of unqualified, albeit cheaper, professionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex2 Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 WTF? ND have which kind of diploma? The max the government can do is give more power to health professionals other than doctors. In quebec, ND is not a profession and it is not taugh in university. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Naturopathic medicine (such as it is) is not taught in any university in the country. They are manifestly unqualified to be prescribing antibiotics much less hormones or psychoactive drugs. The same goes for performing minor surgery or making diagnostic scanning referrals. They don't have anything approaching a clinical clerkship (or nursing practicum), and their curriculum includes far more acupuncture, chelation therapy, and homeopathy than physiology or pharmacology. They have no business pretending to be physicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMmd Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 there is a School in Toronto that offers the N. med program. http://www.ccnm.edu/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylem29 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Wow, if you only knew some of the people attending the CCNM...no offense to them, all the power to them and naturopathic medicine but I would never place any serious health concerns that required lab tests/diagnositic testing in the hands of any ND. Not now at least. People want expanded scopes of practice - first make sure that your educational background matches your demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a41 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 there is a School in Toronto that offers the N. med program. http://www.ccnm.edu/ The worst part is that the school is right across the street from North York General which might make it seem legit in some people's eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Well, technically I think it's across the street from Ikea and Canadian Tire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDMD Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 This is just ridiculous, I'd rather have pharmacists having prescribing power (at least they now a bit more about drug safety) than naturopaths. I've already seen multiple patients with acute vitamin toxicities, peptic ulcers, malabsorption, and esophageal injuries from naturopathic solutions (one even prescribed a patient pure Hydrochloric acid to "help with absorption") What will ultimately happen is that a patient will die or have a terrible outcome from a consequence of this (fairly quickly because of the lack of training) and it will become outlawed within the year...can you just imagine harsh NSAIDS, pyschiatric medications, and antibiotics being prescribed by these people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Charlie Posted February 26, 2009 Report Share Posted February 26, 2009 Seems odd that they'd empower naturopaths with the ability to perform operations or prescribe medications from allopathic medicine which, as I understand it, they're supposed to be providing the alternative for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bede Posted March 13, 2009 Report Share Posted March 13, 2009 My aunt is an ND in Switzerland. She actually owns an ND school. I'm not sure if an ND here is the same as an ND there, but it seems pretty quacky. She has people stare at "energy pictuers" and rubs them with polished stones to cure certain ailments. I sure hope the folks in BC aren't as quacky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alnew Posted March 14, 2009 Report Share Posted March 14, 2009 Interesting and disturbing and the same exact time. I've read a fair bit about the issue and I am disappointed that it has come to this already. I was particularly unhappy with the following comments: Isis van Loon is a naturopathic doctor and dean of clinical studies at New Westminster's Boucher Institute of Naturopathic Medicine. She said students are now taught about pharmaceutical drugs and their appropriate uses, but practitioners like herself, who have been practising for more than a decade, will undoubtedly need additional training. Van Loon stressed that naturopathic doctors do not consider pharmaceuticals their primary method of treatment, but said the ability to prescribe medications will benefit the patient. Excuse me if I am mistaken as I didn't research this completely but I find this counter intuitive. The aforementioned ND has been practicing for ten yrs without the ability to prescribe so I'm assuming that most ND schools have only implemented the study of pharmaceuticals recently, right...so are all ND programs regulated? Does anybody know of any concrete reasons, like an example that an ND has put forth lobbying for this issue, i.e. a case wherein an NDs patient has suffered due to inability to prescribe?? As others have already stated, this is completely an issue about money, misguided intentions. March 9th, ND sees redundancy in system ^^The letter above = frustration, namely: I often have to refer patients who have already been diagnosed to GP's in order to get them medication which I have the training and experience to prescribe. A number of concerns spring to mind: My sister is a pharmacist. In her experience, doctors make mistakes ALL THE TIME in prescribing. I was just wondering, if naturopaths began prescribing, wouldn't that increase the workload of a pharmacist? Also seeing as ND pharma courses have only recently been introduced doesn't that mean, errors are likely to increase. As well, I find the particular excuse of: "patient's right to access a variety of medical disciplines." very, very lame. Who said anything about patient rights, who is barring patients from NDs. What pseudo-medical discipline will be next to lobby for the rights to prescribe? (Also apparently their are two different kinds of NDs (in US anyway), Doctors of Naturopathy and Doctors of Naturopathic Medicine!) Sorry, if I'm grossly mistaken on any points. /rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtkchen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 It has happened. Please refer to my post here http://www.premed101.com/forums/showpost.php?p=324964&postcount=153 Or go to its thread here http://www.premed101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31735 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 My aunt is an ND in Switzerland. She actually owns an ND school. I'm not sure if an ND here is the same as an ND there, but it seems pretty quacky. She has people stare at "energy pictuers" and rubs them with polished stones to cure certain ailments. I sure hope the folks in BC aren't as quacky. LOL, I was reading a naturopathic magazine at the hospital today and found more than a few gems...I really liked the piece of advice that said "brush the skin of your entire body daily with a natural-bristle brush in order to accelerate proper lymphatic drainage and lighten the edges of your iris.":confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Cave Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well this just made up my mind. 3 months ago I was absolutely certain I was going into Family Medicine but now it is really apparent how undervalued family docs are. If the BC gov't thinks those quacks can do the same job then I am going to save myself from a life of frustration and specialize instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xylem29 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Unfortunately - some patients will have to pay the price in order to demonstrate that this is a bad move... I am speechless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well this just made up my mind. 3 months ago I was absolutely certain I was going into Family Medicine but now it is really apparent how undervalued family docs are. If the BC gov't thinks those quacks can do the same job then I am going to save myself from a life of frustration and specialize instead. I fully share your sentiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLengr Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Well this just made up my mind. 3 months ago I was absolutely certain I was going into Family Medicine but now it is really apparent how undervalued family docs are. If the BC gov't thinks those quacks can do the same job then I am going to save myself from a life of frustration and specialize instead. To be fair, this is just a BC problem right now. There has been NO talk of it in the Atlantic region as far as I know. You could still be family medicine in a province that respects family physicians. Besides, BC was never known as being friendly to physicians from what I understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 I get the impression that family physicians are quite well respected here. They seem happy, anyway, and whatever flakiness Nova Scotians occasionally indulge in (hyperconcern over "scents", multiple chemical sensitivity, and chronic fatigue...), it's not BC-style nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtkchen Posted April 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 To be fair, this is just a BC problem right now. There has been NO talk of it in the Atlantic region as far as I know. You could still be family medicine in a province that respects family physicians. Besides, BC was never known as being friendly to physicians from what I understand. Check out http://www.bcna.ca The homepage pop-up: Half of Canada now has legislation for naturopathic doctors! This spring the province of Nova Scotia passed an act legislating the practice of naturopathic medicine. The act will help standardize educational criteria and make it easier for patients to receive coverage from their extended health plans. Nova Scotia joins British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario with acts; legislation is pending in Alberta. There will be increased lobbying by naturopaths in other provinces, especially with the BC precedent. It's a question of When. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex2 Posted April 10, 2009 Report Share Posted April 10, 2009 Quebec must separate to stop this canadian ****. Seriously, how can this happen? It looks as stupid as Bush voted 2 times, etc. Anyway , here we are protected against this, because it takes at least 10 years to take a political decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMmd Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I don't see what the big fuss is all about. If the province judges that the training they receive is sufficient to allow them to prescribe, diagnose, etc. than they should be entitled to that right. their approach may be more holistic in nature, but they are still governed by regulatory bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I don't see what the big fuss is all about. If the province judges that the training they receive is sufficient to allow them to prescribe, diagnose, etc. than they should be entitled to that right. their approach may be more holistic in nature, but they are still governed by regulatory bodies. There are regulatory bodies for magicians and astrologists, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 I don't see what the big fuss is all about. If the province judges that the training they receive is sufficient to allow them to prescribe, diagnose, etc. than they should be entitled to that right. their approach may be more holistic in nature, but they are still governed by regulatory bodies. I don't think that giving patients treatments that are not proven to work or have no basis in science (besides maybe some anecdotal evidence) is beneficial to anyone... it might even be harmful. This is a dangerous precedent the BC government is setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted April 11, 2009 Report Share Posted April 11, 2009 What regulatory body would that be? They are - at best - self-regulated by their "college". There is zero evidence that the provincial government did any kind of adequate assessment of the qualifications of naturopaths (I refuse to call them doctors with or without a qualifier), and every indication that this is the result of some of behind the scenes lobbying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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