BC Naturopaths imminent to have power to prescribe/order labs/image/minor surgery

[AMmd]

I don't think that giving patients treatments that are not proven to work or have no basis in science (besides maybe some anecdotal evidence) is beneficial to anyone... it might even be harmful. This is a dangerous precedent the BC government is setting.

 

Well i guess that's why they are able to prescribe regular medication now too. lol

[AMmd]

What regulatory body would that be? They are - at best - self-regulated by their "college". There is zero evidence that the provincial government did any kind of adequate assessment of the qualifications of naturopaths (I refuse to call them doctors with or without a qualifier), and every indication that this is the result of some of behind the scenes lobbying.

 

MD's, pharms, etc are self-regulated by their colleges as well.

 

I want to add also, that in BC the population is different than in other provinces, with a larger Asian population, who are accustomed to more "traditional" medicine, the NDs, in my opinion are quite a useful addition.

 

The thing that i find deplorable though, is that no reputable university is offering the ND program, only some private ones.

[A-Stark]

MD's, pharms, etc are self-regulated by their colleges as well.

 

I want to add also, that in BC the population is different than in other provinces, with a larger Asian population, who are accustomed to more "traditional" medicine, the NDs, in my opinion are quite a useful addition.

 

The thing that i find deplorable though, is that no reputable university is offering the ND program, only some private ones.

 

Nonsense. Provincial colleges are in no way comparable to the two-bit outfits run by naturopaths. Accreditation of a Canadian medical school is, for example, an involved, weeks-long process involving inspections by external physicians and basic scientists. Whatever passes for self-regulation among naturopaths would be more akin to the practice of 19th century medicine, certainly not anything like what we have now.

 

For that matter, this has nothing to do with demographics. Naturopathy has adopted acupuncture and - to some extent - traditional Chinese medicine, but it is rooted in quackery which was sloughed off from mainstream medicine a hundred years ago. Homeopathy, chelation therapy to expunge non-existent toxicities, Luddite distrust of "artificial" chemicals, and so-called natural remedies. The problem is that just because something is natural does not mean it is without toxicity (everything is potentially toxic), and just because something is putatively "traditional" does not mean it is in any way effective.

 

Training is the other issue - they don't have it, and it is not remotely comparable. They will now be able to prescribe antibiotics and anti-retrovirals, for example. In what regard is this remotely congruent with their training or scope of practice?

[xylem29]

Nonsense. Provincial colleges are in no way comparable to the two-bit outfits run by naturopaths. Accreditation of a Canadian medical school is, for example, an involved, weeks-long process involving inspections by external physicians and basic scientists. Whatever passes for self-regulation among naturopaths would be more akin to the practice of 19th century medicine, certainly not anything like what we have now.

 

For that matter, this has nothing to do with demographics. Naturopathy has adopted acupuncture and - to some extent - traditional Chinese medicine, but it is rooted in quackery which was sloughed off from mainstream medicine a hundred years ago. Homeopathy, chelation therapy to expunge non-existent toxicities, Luddite distrust of "artificial" chemicals, and so-called natural remedies. The problem is that just because something is natural does not mean it is without toxicity (everything is potentially toxic), and just because something is putatively "traditional" does not mean it is in any way effective.

 

Training is the other issue - they don't have it, and it is not remotely comparable. They will now be able to prescribe antibiotics and anti-retrovirals, for example. In what regard is this remotely congruent with their training or scope of practice?

 

Well - I do believe this is f'ed up BUT, do you think NDs are greedy money hungry animals with no conscience? If they are truly health professionals, then I'm sure none of them would dare prescribe antibiotics/anti-retrovirals because they know they don't have the training to do so.

 

There are already issues with bad prescribing habits by MDs (whether it be due to demanding patients or industry influence), leading to tons of problems (like increasing drug expenditure, increasing drug resistance, etc) --> giving patients yet another gateway towards accessing drugs, being prescribed by people who have even LESS training, experience, and knowledge than MDs (who are already considered to be clueless at times re: proper prescribing and use of antibiotics)? WTF are they even thinking?

 

Anyway - anyone dumb enough to see an ND for Rx meds deserves to be given a Darwin award anyway!

 

Edit: Before we get carried away, lol:

 

"To protect patient safety, the regulations require naturopathic physicians to have successfully completed a certification course before administering, prescribing or dispensing prescription medication. Additionally, the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. will receive access to B.C.’s PharmaNet database system so that it can monitor its members’ prescribing patterns. The College will also establish standards, limits and conditions for prescribing based on the recommendations of an inter-professional committee that includes medical doctors, pharmacists and a Ministry of Health Services representative."

 

http://www2.news.gov.bc.ca/news_releases_2005-2009/2009HSERV0045-000871.htm

[A-Stark]

Oh, I'm sure they mean well, but the whole "we treat the cause rather than the symptoms" nonsense really grinds my gears (as Peter Griffin might say). As you say, the state of prescriptions is not ideal as it is, and it will not likely improve by allowing practitioners with questionable training to compound the problem.

[The Law]

Well i guess that's why they are able to prescribe regular medication now too. lol

 

They don't have the proper extensive training to be doing this. Anyway, why would they even want to use evidence-based medicine-- we should just nurture the soul and heal ourselves!

[BlackJack]

The bell has tolled for allopathic primary care in BC.

 

Naturopathic physicians are now equivalent to the general practitioner.

[AMmd]

They don't have the proper extensive training to be doing this. Anyway, why would they even want to use evidence-based medicine-- we should just nurture the soul and heal ourselves!

 

and how do you know, how can a premed judge a ND, or a MD or a pharm training in that matter. only their peers can have a saying as to the quality of the training.

 

and as xylem said:

"To protect patient safety, the regulations require naturopathic physicians to have successfully completed a certification course before administering, prescribing or dispensing prescription medication. Additionally, the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. will receive access to B.C.’s PharmaNet database system so that it can monitor its members’ prescribing patterns. The College will also establish standards, limits and conditions for prescribing based on the recommendations of an inter-professional committee that includes medical doctors, pharmacists and a Ministry of Health Services representative."

[mrgreek]

a premed can judge based on their experiences and comparing some methods with common sense. Their solution for solving prostate cancer is quite ridiculous. Furthermore, they have in instances gone against evidence based medicine (speaking from personal experience). That is where the danger lies... and the quakery.

 

I'll concede the fact that maybe not all naturopaths are like that (my personal encounters goes against that however), which is why I think they need to be more tightly controlled and regulated, in line with more public education on exactly what they do.

 

But as in another thread somewhere on this site shows, they compare the amount of hours training an ND goes through, and an MD goes through... without mentioning residency and the amount of hours that entails.

Personally, I see that as intentional misinformation, which also questions their ethics. (Why intentional? I think its safe to say, anyone in a health related field knows medical doctors have residency).

[A-Stark]

and how do you know, how can a premed judge a ND, or a MD or a pharm training in that matter. only their peers can have a saying as to the quality of the training.

 

For f*ck's sake, these NDs don't set foot inside a hospital during their training, they don't have clerkships, they don't take call, they don't do anything remotely resembling what we do in medical school. For all their spurious comparisons of hours of study, it can be more or less guaranteed that they do not have access to cadaver labs, observorships, or even proper physical examination training. Why would they? How would they? They're not trained by MDs or RNs or anyone with rigorous experience and training.

[leviathan]

The thing that i find deplorable though, is that no reputable university is offering the ND program, only some private ones.

That's because no respectable university would ever want to completely damage its reputation by opening a naturopathic medicine program.

 

To protect patient safety, the regulations require naturopathic physicians to have successfully completed a certification course before administering, prescribing or dispensing prescription medication.

I'm glad that naturopaths can now treat medical conditions through prescription medications by doing a CERTIFICATION course. I thought doctors had to go through 4 YEARS of medical school plus residency to do the same.

[Mourning Cloak]

Correct me if I'm wrong . . . .

 

But the legislation as written has one interesting omission:

 

No ordering lab tests.

 

So the ND can prescribe statins, but not order the LFTs required to follow the patient. They could order the antibiotics required, but not the urine C&S to diagnose the UTI.

 

*things that make you go hmmmmm*

[xylem29]

Guys - I remember reading somewhere that the reasons they lobbyed for this prescribing power, is so that they can prescribe what were once non scheduled items like vitamins, some herbals, etc. Things that they used to "prescribe" they lost the power to prescribe, and now they're getting it back.

 

For the most part, I don't see them prescribing any real Rx meds - if they do, it would really damange their credibility as "alternative medical providers" wouldn't it? They're patient base in general are those who DO NOT want Rx meds to begin with.

 

It's also important to note - that naturopathic medicine is actually legally legitimated under provincial legislation, just recently in fact, and I doubt the profession would risk losing this legitimacy due to patient harm by the performance of controlled acts by incompetent NDs.

[youngdad]

Guys - I remember reading somewhere that the reasons they lobbyed for this prescribing power, is so that they can prescribe what were once non scheduled items like vitamins, some herbals, etc. Things that they used to "prescribe" they lost the power to prescribe, and now they're getting it back.

 

For the most part, I don't see them prescribing any real Rx meds - if they do, it would really damange their credibility as "alternative medical providers" wouldn't it? They're patient base in general are those who DO NOT want Rx meds to begin with.

 

It's also important to note - that naturopathic medicine is actually legally legitimated under provincial legislation, just recently in fact, and I doubt the profession would risk losing this legitimacy due to patient harm by the performance of controlled acts by incompetent NDs.

 

I agree with the last point. I think the ND's are going to be very careful with these new powers. At least I hope they are. For the sake of their profession and especially patient welfare.

[The Law]

and how do you know, how can a premed judge a ND, or a MD or a pharm training in that matter. only their peers can have a saying as to the quality of the training.

 

 

Yes, because you need to have an MD in order to figure out that you are dealing with a bunch of quacks. You can tell just by how they try to "treat" illnees. Give me a break, this is pretty damn ridiculous. What's worse, is they prey on public's misconceptions due to their claim that they are "holistic." In reality, the public hears this and thinks that the naturopathic quacktors (I also refuse to call them doctors) know what they are doing (just like a lot of the public buys magnetic "healing" wristbands)... this is just ridiculous policy by the BC governemnt.

[Alex2]

I wonder why the professional association of Md and pharmacist don't sue every ND for illegal pratice of medecine and pharmacy. Every time Radio-Canada (french CBC) in the show La Facture or any other show in other channels show that they sell things that only pharnmacist can sell and they say their drugs can heal someone.... If ND was so serious, why they don't have a professional association?

[coastalslacker]

This will be interesting when malpractice occurs and the courts get involved. "I took a distance learning course and got a certificate to prescibe this medication, which fried this guy's liver" might not sit too well.

 

Agree with the last couple points, however, that naturopaths are unlikely to prescribe much-it would be counterproductive to the smoke and mirrors show they put up to differentiate themselves from mainstream medicine. The granolas who go see them won't drink the kool-aid anymore if they start getting advised to take statins and asa.

[The Law]

I wonder if the CMA is doing anything about this...

[Lillylee]

Guys - I remember reading somewhere that the reasons they lobbyed for this prescribing power, is so that they can prescribe what were once non scheduled items like vitamins, some herbals, etc. Things that they used to "prescribe" they lost the power to prescribe, and now they're getting it back.

 

For the most part, I don't see them prescribing any real Rx meds - if they do, it would really damange their credibility as "alternative medical providers" wouldn't it? They're patient base in general are those who DO NOT want Rx meds to begin with.

 

It's also important to note - that naturopathic medicine is actually legally legitimated under provincial legislation, just recently in fact, and I doubt the profession would risk losing this legitimacy due to patient harm by the performance of controlled acts by incompetent NDs.

 

The first decent comment I have read. Even though I completely disagree with allowing full prescribing rights for naturopaths like most of you, I couldn't help cringing at the immature, snobbish and just plain mean posts on here. Everyone is free to have their opinions, but I wish it was expressed in a more mature way with specific reasons/discussion for your concerns (i.e. without resorting to calling them quacks who use smoke and mirrors etc etc). The truth is, they provide a service the public seems to want: They're not going anywhere. And please don't assume they're going to end up killing people left right and centre without proper evidence... and frankly hospitals with their "legitimate" doctors, nurses, PTs, dieticians, pharmacists etc. do a good enough job with that already.

[AdamP]

I feel as if an interesting dynamic may play out in BC

 

Now any MDs who challenege ND and it's merits may now be judged by the public to be "greedy" or "selfish" and only concerned about keeping their prestige and money. Even if the challenges are based in reason and evidence.

 

Haven't had enough time to reflect on how I feel about this yet but I think the RN proposals are overdue.

[leviathan]

and frankly hospitals with their "legitimate" doctors, nurses, PTs, dieticians, pharmacists etc. do a good enough job with that already.

Fallacious argument.

[Dr.Cave]

Then there's the "phallacious" argument when you consider Naturopaths treat ED with Horny Goat Weed

 

Sorry

[coastalslacker]

Fallacious argument.

 

agreed.

 

people die in hospital because they are sick and, in general, most people in our society are not comfortable with their loved ones dying at home. They want it at arms length. Once you work in a hospital for abit you actually get an understanding for how many people get saved who otherwise would have died. "Western" medicine is the real deal, it saves lives.

[smile]

Then there's the "phallacious" argument when you consider Naturopaths treat ED with Horny Goat Weed

 

Sorry

 

So I google'd: http://oss.mcgill.ca/yasked/hornygoat.pdf

[The Law]

Then there's the "phallacious" argument when you consider Naturopaths treat ED with Horny Goat Weed

 

Sorry

 

Lol, always here to amuse.