Surgeon or Physician?

[Jacques Cartier]

I've heard from a nurse that plenty of the surgeons she knows work way too much and neglect their families. This totally turned me off of surgery, but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily. Do surgeons have a higher divorce rate than physicians? Is it harder to stay balanced as a physician? To be honest, I aspire to have a well-balanced family life, do some research and make plenty of money. Is that possible as a surgeon? I'm talking about hospital-based surgeons, not ENT or anything.

[Talon01]

You'll get the best answer for yourself once you hit clerkship and can experience the different aspects of medicine and surgery yourself and by talking to the residents.

[Jacques Cartier]

So if I decide then it won't be too late for surgery? Isn't it more competitive to the point where you basically need to decide and start building a directed resume in first year?

[bnface]

So if I decide then it won't be too late for surgery? Isn't it more competitive to the point where you basically need to decide and start building a directed resume in first year?

 

it's really not that hard....especially in a 4 year program. Maybe if you want to do plastics you should start by the end of your first year, but that's not even a hard and fast rule.

[THX]

I've heard from a nurse that plenty of the surgeons she knows work way too much and neglect their families. This totally turned me off of surgery, but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily. Do surgeons have a higher divorce rate than physicians? Is it harder to stay balanced as a physician? To be honest, I aspire to have a well-balanced family life, do some research and make plenty of money. Is that possible as a surgeon? I'm talking about hospital-based surgeons, not ENT or anything.

You should choose something you like, rather than what is the most profitable. I'd imagine surgery can be a miserable existence unless you love it.

[Wut?]

I'm talking about hospital-based surgeons, not ENT or anything.

 

ENT's don't work in hospitals?

 

Money, balanced lifestyle or happiness. Pick two.

 

(Just kidding, if you didn't notice.

 

 

 

 

But really.)

[Jacques Cartier]

I agree, but have no idea whether or not I'll love it or not yet. I wouldn't do something I don't have a passion for. There's no denying that money plays into the decision though - which, yes, makes me shallow and materialistic to a degree. But like I stated above, a happy family life and research are also very important to me along with pure interest - all more so than money probably.

 

It really does seem like you can only get 2/3 sometimes lol.

[krgregg]

surgery is a tough life - but you're rewarded financially for it. that said, it's also a very high consumption lifestyle.

 

a lot of people aren't doing gen surg these days because it involves a lot of work. a plastics program director told me last week they want someone who is willing to work their ass off as a resident. there is no easy road, esp. if you want to be compensated well.

 

but yes - in general (to quote a GI friend of mine) - you get paid better for using your hands than your head.

[Laika]

I've heard from a nurse that plenty of the surgeons she knows work way too much and neglect their families. This totally turned me off of surgery, but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily. Do surgeons have a higher divorce rate than physicians? Is it harder to stay balanced as a physician? To be honest, I aspire to have a well-balanced family life, do some research and make plenty of money. Is that possible as a surgeon?

 

I know of a couple of surgeons who see their spouses all the time. She's a urologist, he's a GI surgeon, and they do colo-rectal cancer cases together. (Pretty romantic, eh?)

 

Whenever we have career nights, the surgery specialties always tell us how hard it is to balance family (if they have one), with their career. Not impossible, but very challenging.

[Guest copacetic]

I've heard from a nurse that plenty of the surgeons she knows work way too much and neglect their families. This totally turned me off of surgery, but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily. Do surgeons have a higher divorce rate than physicians? Is it harder to stay balanced as a physician? To be honest, I aspire to have a well-balanced family life, do some research and make plenty of money. Is that possible as a surgeon? I'm talking about hospital-based surgeons, not ENT or anything.

 

interesting reading and sources:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/410643_2

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/130/4_Part_1/312

 

"Divorce

Divorce rates among physicians have been reported to be 10% to 20% higher than those in the general population.[20] Furthermore, those couples that include a physician who remain married reported marriages that are more unhappy. Much has been written about the "medical marriage," and some problems have been reported as widespread among physicians' marriages. For many years in pre-med college, medical school, and residency, physicians focus on getting through the next hurdle. They may postpone the pleasures of life that others enjoy. It has been hypothesized that this psychology of postponement may be related to compulsive traits. In particular, the compulsive personality traits that are widely heralded as being key ingredients in professional success may have the unwanted consequence of leading to more distant relationships. Many physicians place work above all else, and it has been speculated that this may serve the purpose for them of helping to avoid intimacy, thus placing strain on intimate relationships.[21]"

 

with all this having being said you need to understand a couple things. t

1) he first thing is dont shy away from a career that is difficult/time consuming if its something that you really want to do. why? the literature shows that (and this applies to all marriages) when both individuals in a marriage have fulfilling careers their marriage is that much better for it. dont go into something you dont find fulfilling.

 

2) sure surgery hours might be crap for some people, but that doesnt mean that YOUR hours have to be crap too. as a physician you CAN tailor your life to be whatever you want it to be. you can simply choose to work less. some of these folks who work alot are either workaholics, love their job too much, or are simply in love with making bank. that doesnt have to be you. you can love your job, be good at it, and still be home to see your kids. sure you wont exactly be working a 40 hour work week, but 50-60 hours really isn't that bad.

 

3) the key to a long lasting and successful marraige (once again the research supports this) is to make sure that your spouse and your are compatible. alot of people get into relationships looking for someone who is exciting, and different from themselves, you know that who notion of opposites attract. any first year psych course will tell you that opposites may attract, but the sure as hell dont stay together. the more similar you are to your spouse, the more in common you have, the easier it is to understand one another and communicate with one another...ultimately staying together. the truth is that alot of people get married to people they have no business being married to, and cant live together with.

 

4) as a corollary to the point above, and as a point to note, more and more doctors are marrying fellow doctors, and these types of marriages are actually very successful.

 

5) one other thing, your life (including your marriage) will ultimately be what you make of it. some of my mentors make a point of trying hard to compartmentalize their life. its not easy, but even making the effort to do so will gain you points in a marriage that is on the rocks.

[a41]

but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily

 

How much money do you need to make in order to be happy? I think everyone should ask themselves that

 

Maybe you'll realize that your only option is to be a plastic surgeon in California!

 

As a side note, I saw a commercial on TV yesterday advertising 2 for 1 breast augmentations! I couldn't tell if it was two breasts for the price of one, or two separate surgeries .

[NLengr]

This totally turned me off of surgery, but after looking at the pay difference I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't have been swayed so easily. Do surgeons have a higher divorce rate than physicians? Is it harder to stay balanced as a physician? To be honest, I aspire to have a well-balanced family life, do some research and make plenty of money. Is that possible as a surgeon? I'm talking about hospital-based surgeons, not ENT or anything.

 

You can still make a fortune doing other specialties. The highest paid physician I know is an pediatric allergist. She's paid more than the CV surgeons, cardiologists, ENT, Derm etc. docs around here.

 

The key to making money in medicine isn't in the type of doctor you are. It's in your business planning and how you set yourself up. I know surgeons who make a fortune and are just scrapping by because they have poor money management, and internists who are living a million dollar homes.

 

Salary is a very small part of making money.

[simba]

Salary is a very small part of making money.

 

Interesting statement... do you mind expanding on it? (are you referring to wise investments?)

[leviathan]

Interesting statement... do you mind expanding on it? (are you referring to wise investments?)

Tax return management, incorporation, money management, investments, budgeting your money (amazing how quick it dissapears to frivolous things) etc etc.

[NLengr]

Tax return management, incorporation, money management, investments, budgeting your money (amazing how quick it dissapears to frivolous things) etc etc.

 

Basically this. Lots of people (especially physicians) make lots of salary, but end up with little to show for it or massive debt since they have terrible money management skills.

 

In the right hands, a well managed and invested family physician will have much more money than a poorly invested, poorly managed cardiologist.

 

If you are worried about money, don't worry about what kind of physician you will be (you'll make lots of cash either way) worry about how you will manage your money.

[bnface]

Basically this. Lots of people (especially physicians) make lots of salary, but end up with little to show for it or massive debt since they have terrible money management skills.

 

In the right hands, a well managed and invested family physician will have much more money than a poorly invested, poorly managed cardiologist.

 

If you are worried about money, don't worry about what kind of physician you will be (you'll make lots of cash either way) worry about how you will manage your money.

 

many people will not believe this, but it is true. I know people who make no more than 30$/hour who's lifestyles are at least equal to, if not better than, physicians that live on their street!

[Lactic Folly]

You can still make a fortune doing other specialties. The highest paid physician I know is an pediatric allergist. She's paid more than the CV surgeons, cardiologists, ENT, Derm etc. docs around here.

How so? Just curious.

[Wut?]

Volume. How long does it take to do an allergy screen?

[JCTulip]

I'd like to add, as the OP probably already knows, even within surgery there is vast difference in pay and lifestyle, among the different subspecialties.

 

in terms of money + lifestyle balance consideration, the winners are:

 

tier 1: Ophthal, plastics

 

tier 2: ENT, urology

 

tier 3: gen surg, obs/gyn

 

the difference can be so great, that those in tier 1 can be making 2-5x than the income of family physician or general internist, while still maintaining a great lifestyle

 

hence I think OP is certainly on the right track to include money on his consideration if that is an important element for career satisfaction for OP

[NLengr]

I'd like to add, as the OP probably already knows, even within surgery there is vast difference in pay and lifestyle, among the different subspecialties.

 

in terms of money + lifestyle balance consideration, the winners are:

 

tier 1: Ophthal, plastics

 

tier 2: ENT, urology

 

tier 3: gen surg, obs/gyn

 

the difference can be so great, that those in tier 1 can be making 2-5x than the income of family physician or general internist, while still maintaining a great lifestyle

 

hence I think OP is certainly on the right track to include money on his consideration if that is an important element for career satisfaction for OP

 

You should swap ENT and plastics (non cosmetic).

 

At my center ENT has a much better lifestyle than plastics or urology and the money is still quite good. The Uro guys here work like dogs. Plastics has alot of acute trauma (hand in the snowblower type stuff) that they have to deal with too.

[mbene085]

I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of medical specialties that have long hours, lots of call, etc. An interventional cardiologist and a rheumatologist have vastly different lifestyles, so 'surgeon or physician?' isn't even the core question when it comes to lifestyle/family. Medicine vs surgery is a huge decision in terms of finding which you prefer, but both of them have a wide variety in terms of lifestyle.

[Guest copacetic]

I'd like to add, as the OP probably already knows, even within surgery there is vast difference in pay and lifestyle, among the different subspecialties.

 

in terms of money + lifestyle balance consideration, the winners are:

 

tier 1: Ophthal, plastics

 

tier 2: ENT, urology

 

tier 3: gen surg, obs/gyn

 

the difference can be so great, that those in tier 1 can be making 2-5x than the income of family physician or general internist, while still maintaining a great lifestyle

 

hence I think OP is certainly on the right track to include money on his consideration if that is an important element for career satisfaction for OP

 

i really think that this is all really just overgeneralization. not every optho guys has a great lifestyle, not every gen surg has a crap lifestyle. you can very much control what kind of lifestyle you want out of medicine if you are willing to adjust your income/location etc. i know an interventional guy who is working 40 hours a week and another working close to 80. both in the same city, both at the same center. it varies dramatically.