McMaster Health Science

[discworldheavylight]

In other words, the 200 accepted are not the top 200 out of those 3000 high school students.

 

*sighs*

 

k, i can only speak for my year, but you are an idiot. straight up.

 

i dont...i dont even know how to explain this to you. yes, some of them did reject and end up going elsewhere, but the number that were sent acceptances was still around the 200 mark...man, i dont even understand what u are saying.

 

they ONLY accepted approx 200 students. the reason? too many chose to accept the previous year and they ended up with a 200+ class size.

my year, u had to rsvp through email so they could get an idea of their numbers before they would send out any other acceptances (they didnt, btw) and we ended up with around 160.

[jbdent]

*sighs*

 

k, i can only speak for my year, but you are an idiot. straight up.

 

 

lol.. whoa defensive.. sfinch has a good point!

 

i turned down mac health sci for UWO and never regretted it. From what I've heard about mac health sci from the ppl I went to high school with who ended up going, and comparing it to a "normal" undergrad experience, I know it's such a joke compared to other undergrad programs. Yet Mac Health Sci-ians always seem to feel the need to "justify" their program as being difficult..

[discworldheavylight]

all sfinch said was just because you get an offer you won't necessarily accept. He is right.

 

he should get his numbers right so ppl can understand him.

200 is the number mac accepts (like he said).

im pretty sure he meant 200 is the number that accepts what mac sends out. but that number is closer to 160.

so we lose 40 smart ppl. still, that doesnt mean they were the only competent ppl. a kid went to harvard med last year for christ's sake.

 

but i concede, i was unable to comprehend his convoluted ramblings.

[ChicoMaki]

lol.. whoa defensive.. sfinch has a good point!

 

i turned down mac health sci for UWO and never regretted it. From what I've heard about mac health sci from the ppl I went to high school with who ended up going, and comparing it to a "normal" undergrad experience, I know it's such a joke compared to other undergrad programs. Yet Mac Health Sci-ians always seem to feel the need to "justify" their program as being difficult..

 

I don't like the word difficult. I think "different" is a better term. As someone you cautiously accepted the offer 4 years ago to health sci, I was regretting the decision all throughout 1st semester of 1st year. That's not to say I was doing poorly; I was just finding it difficult to adapt to this different style of learning. I had actually enjoyed the "traditional" classes of chemistry, calculus vs "Cell Biology", which I am not afraid to admit was a disaster of a course as it was in transition to the course that it is now (which is in part from the feedback my year gave) or Psychobiology. I ended up doing better in my "non-health sci" versus "health sci" classes.

 

I only stayed in the program after multiple long conversations with the Dean of the program. And hell, it pisses me off hearing from new people in the program that they failed a test when in reality, they got an A-. It never ceases to amaze me. Unfortunately, there appears to be a sense of entitlement that is constantly growing within the students of the program. I look back at 2nd year where 3 groups present information (after 6 weeks of work, etc) and marks were 95, 90, and 85. I couldn't believe how that last group had gotten an A because when i looked at the marking scheme and evaluted them, it sure wasn't near an A. however, that is the program and until med schools really assess the GPA ( perhaps inflation), the MCAT serves as the best standard to gauge knowledge/thinking (as bad as it may be for that as well). Why do you think McMaster Meds implemented VR and cut the weight of GPAs in half?

 

Nevertheless, the program exposed me to avenues of health science (research opportunites, growth and character development) that had I not stay in the program, I would not have achieved.

 

Again, university is an experience and for people on this forum, med school is the goal (for the most part). I took on a rationalization roughly around the end of 1st year: I couldn't give a f**k about what my peers were doing for ECs, classes, grades - Work your ass off, get good grades, have fun and see what happens when you apply.

 

Applying to medicine is a lottery. A friend of mine was accepted to 4 top 10 schools in the USA and every school he applied to in Canada except UofT (still had an interview there). Is that logical? No, but neither is the system. Buy as many lottery tickets as possible, do well on the MCAT, and the rest is really out of your hands

 

Cheers and Good luck

[WestEastMountGuy]

That^^^^^^^^^

 

Thank you!

[Morzan]

Right now, it looks like I'm heading to York. Almost everyone says UofT has a killer life science course, lowering my GPA unnecessarily. Regarding mac, everyone has a different opinion so I don't know who to believe

Don't take it personally, I have to consider everything and can't just faithfully go with one's opinion.

 

P.S. now medicine is a lottery? sigh...

[sfinch]

ChicoMaki - Thanks for your very honest view. That is what I always believed to the case. Many in the program are self-absorbed people that have entitlement issues, and are quite frankly, not as smart as they think. The sad thing is, that they will never truly get what most undergrads are good universities get...a lesson or two with a few harsh marks. Imagine a program, where you can give yourself marks in some courses?? And they get to use those marks to apply to medical school. Mind boggling.

 

Despite my high marks at UBC, some midterms I did do relatively poorly in first year, and got me into gear (if you did really well in the final...the negative effects of a poor midterm are often removed in some courses - as long as the class average is in the 65-69 range still).

 

Westeastmount Guy. Isn't your dad a neurologist or internist at MAC? Ask him why admissions at McMaster tolerates this ridiculous grade inflation in Health Sciences. Until other doctors stand up to it, dean dellsworth will be able to keep getting away with it. I'm pretty sure that the introduction of the MCAT was partially to temper Health Sci's ridiculous mark distribution.

 

ps...you may wonder why I harp on this being from bc and going to uwo meds...i actually looked into health scie strongly 4 yrs ago though i didn't apply...and my friend who did get in, chose uoft instead...the poor guy at uoft got nailed hard...and with a 3.7ish gpa and 9 in verbal (14,13,S other)...has basically no chance in ontario for med school...ubc is his only realistic shot (so that's better than ontario residents), but it's sad to think that if he went to health sci...he'd have got into uoft or mcmaster with no problem with a 3.95+ gpa.

[discworldheavylight]

Right now, it looks like I'm heading to York. Almost everyone says UofT has a killer life science course, lowering my GPA unnecessarily. Regarding mac, everyone has a different opinion so I don't know who to believe

Don't take it personally, I have to consider everything and can't just faithfully go with one's opinion.

 

i DO know ppl that went to york because it was supposed to be easier than uoft. (but apparently their first year chem is really hard)

ppl that go there now give good feedback about gpa and stuff.

but make sure u like the community as well. a lot of them complain about that and about the quality of their science department (i.e. research).

if youre just looking for marks, york certainly sounds better than uoft. but i feel uoft is more of a true uni experience (i mean that socially).

[onamountain]

From what I've heard about mac health sci from the ppl I went to high school with who ended up going, and comparing it to a "normal" undergrad experience, I know it's such a joke compared to other undergrad programs. Yet Mac Health Sci-ians always seem to feel the need to "justify" their program as being difficult..

 

hmmm ok I try to avoid fanning the flames in these types of discussions, but it really bugs me when people call health sci a "joke." I agree that it is easier than engineering, but so are all other life sci programs. I agree that our first year is lax compared to general science, although I personally didn't do that great. However, health sci gets a lot tougher in second year. I suppose the only people who are really qualified to comment on the relative difficulty of health sci are the transfer students, who have already studied in programs like kin, eng, and life sci. And from what I've heard, they actually think second year is intense too...just like us!

 

I think most people who fervently believe that health sci is a piece of cake either base that off of our first year, or they know a few health scis with really high gpas. That doesn't really work. I have a few friends at UofT life sci, and every single one of them has a 4.0. From that, can I generalize that UofT life sci is super-duper-easy? Obviously not, I know that they work really hard and they're all crazy smart. The health scis with low marks don't go around telling that to all their friends or posting about it on the internet, so you don't hear about it as much. You are guaranteed nothing in health sci.

 

Our faculty focuses on a different skill set than most, and I think people see that as giving away marks. I think sfinch called it "touchy-feely crap" earlier. Personally I'm glad to be learning group work skills, critical thinking skills, research skills, and communication skills because they're useful in everything. I think the collaborative atmosphere is also one factor that contributes to our high class averages. People here are not cut-throat pre-meds; everybody tries to help each other out and that does make a difference.

 

This is just my own perspective, but I don't think health sci is more difficult than other degrees, or that we're smarter students, or that we have a better program. There are lots of interesting programs with unique strengths out there. Health sci is absolutely not a joke program though. When people say that, they're basically dismissing our entire degree. It's frustrating that these people don't know what they're talking about, but they're convinced they do.

[Morzan]

@discworldheavylight

I heard York has crazy parties

[igeorgex]

hmmm ok I try to avoid fanning the flames in these types of discussions, but it really bugs me when people call health sci a "joke." I agree that it is easier than engineering, but so are all other life sci programs. I agree that our first year is lax compared to general science, although I personally didn't do that great. However, health sci gets a lot tougher in second year. I suppose the only people who are really qualified to comment on the relative difficulty of health sci are the transfer students, who have already studied in programs like kin, eng, and life sci. And from what I've heard, they actually think second year is intense too...just like us!

 

I think most people who fervently believe that health sci is a piece of cake either base that off of our first year, or they know a few health scis with really high gpas. That doesn't really work. I have a few friends at UofT life sci, and every single one of them has a 4.0. From that, can I generalize that UofT life sci is super-duper-easy? Obviously not, I know that they work really hard and they're all crazy smart. The health scis with low marks don't go around telling that to all their friends or posting about it on the internet, so you don't hear about it as much. You are guaranteed nothing in health sci.

 

Our faculty focuses on a different skill set than most, and I think people see that as giving away marks. I think sfinch called it "touchy-feely crap" earlier. Personally I'm glad to be learning group work skills, critical thinking skills, research skills, and communication skills because they're useful in everything. I think the collaborative atmosphere is also one factor that contributes to our high class averages. People here are not cut-throat pre-meds; everybody tries to help each other out and that does make a difference.

 

This is just my own perspective, but I don't think health sci is more difficult than other degrees, or that we're smarter students, or that we have a better program. There are lots of interesting programs with unique strengths out there. Health sci is absolutely not a joke program though. When people say that, they're basically dismissing our entire degree. It's frustrating that these people don't know what they're talking about, but they're convinced they do.

 

thank you thank you thank you.

 

as students who are in/applying to med school, some basic statistical skills should have taught you that a non-random sample (i.e. based on friends/people you know in the program) is not an accurate representation of the entirety of students within BHSc. don't trust hearsay or what one or two friends have said: that is a skewed interpretation.

 

I don't know how many times I have to say this, but just because something is "different" does not make it "easy" or "unfair". I don't understand how so many of you who can keep an open mind in the 'Gay' thread become so closed minded about how health sci works.

 

I will reiterate: just because it is different, does not mean it is easy. While our courses may not all be super-intensive on the sciences, there is no guarantee we will do well on them. As onamountain stated, people aren't going to talk about how bad they're doing to their friends and less likely to post on a forum about it. I will admit that all my lowest marks have been from health sci courses. I'm not trying to make it seem like my program is "so difficult", just pointing out that we're different and shouldn't be written off for that reason.

 

/rant

[mig174]

This is just my own perspective, but I don't think health sci is more difficult than other degrees, or that we're smarter students, or that we have a better program.

 

Let me see if I follow:

1. Health sci is the same difficulty as other life sci programs. A student getting a 3.0 in another program would get 3.0 in health sci.

2. Health sci students have the same intelligence as other students. A student transferring out of health sci would get the same mark in another program. This is probably true as

3. The program has the same quality of teaching as every other program.

 

It necessarily follows from your argument that the grade distribution in health sci should be the same as it is in every other program (i.e. 65-67% average with 10% SD). In reality, it is quite obviously significantly higher.

 

I'm willing to bet that all three of your assumptions are wrong and all play a role in fostering that high average. Sure, Mac Health Sci are probably smarter than your average student leaving high school for university. However, the lack of standards in high school marking and just seeing how many national "scholars" get raped in their first year (lulz 98% average down to 75), I'd say this isn't the major factor.

 

The quality of teaching is quite likely better. It is a smaller program, so there are more chances to interact with profs, and the profs themselves are probably better than average, as well. However, this is still supposed to be university - so much of the studying has to be self-directed and I would expect nothing less from a program geared for premeds. I doubt this accounts for a large part of the increased average.

 

So that leaves # 1 - mac health sci is significantly easier to do well in than other life sci programs.

 

Unless you have a better explanation as to why your assumptions cannot explain reality, that is.

[onamountain]

My hypothesis is that students in health sci are generally more motivated to do well than general life sci students. I would say that, on average, health sci kids work harder than people in life sci simply because they've been selected for this. They've demonstrated drive and study skills from their high school performance, and admission depends largely on the quality of their supplementary application - so only people who have put a lot of thought and effort into this will do well. In life sci you have plenty of people who are just as highly motivated and hard working, if not more so, but you also have many people who are just doing what they need to get by. These types are much rarer in health sci, probably because of the abnormally high concentration of people gunning for meds or dentistry. I think you also have more people in life sci who may be going through really difficult times without the phenomenal support that peers and faculty in health sci provide. It's hard to do well in school when you're depressed or when you don't even know what you're in university for. Both these groups pull class averages down.

 

And your example of "national scholars" who go from 98% to 75% - I would think that drop is less due to the difficulty of the program and more to do with the transition to university, which we all know is not easy. All the people I know who had averages that high, at the very top, they have immaculate grades at schools like UofT and McGill. And they still have rich social lives.

 

If you took all the life scis on p101, their marks would probably be similar to health sci grades. It's just that there are many, many life sci students who are not on p101, who are not as neurotic about doing well, who are not as perfectionistic. And that's why general life sci averages are lower.

[medrobotics]

Sorry to bring back the dead thread, but I thought I'd share my two cents. First of, let me give my high regards to the health sci program. Looking back, I probably should have gone there, getting accepted during my application process.

 

To give a point of comparison for an engineering equivalent to health Science - Engineering Science at u of T; I was the stupid moron that decided to do this, and alas, med school is something I could get now only out of pure luck, and most likely have a virtually nill chance of getting unless im willing to stay back a few more years of undergrad.

 

Both programs have high cutoffs, incredibly smart kids come into both, but hey, U of T decides to give Eng Sci's 2.5's, 0.5's, 1's, have class averages of 65s and the uni just sits back enjoying the fun, while Health Sci's get their 3.9's and 4's. Guess you could say mcMaster actually values their top program more than U of T. Dont give me that BS about transition to university - Id like to bet if Health Sci students even took a step into something like Eng Sci, they wouldnt "transition" well either through first year. To me, it has more to do with U of T's no care attitude for students, versus McMaster's lets get these students into med school.

 

 

The entrance class for Eng Sci has people coming in with 95% + averages from high school, which is probably similar to the class coming into health sci. Just kind of sad that people of such calibre, if wanting to pursue medicine later on (and decided they wanted to do a good engineering degree, like me, before medicine) is pretty much screwed in terms of entry cause of crappy GPA. In fact, we pretty much loose any hope of getting into any top notch grad school (in the US), med school (US/Can) or law school (Us)- only the select few manage to make it that far.

 

Now onto med schools - I'm almost convinced the adcoms in these places are idiotic enough to purely look at just a GPA and put program difficulty, class average, and many other things out of context (or completely disregard them). Many people in this forum have agreed that ultimately, its your GPA that matters and not the difficulty OR nature of your program. Awesome, so you mean to tell me someone who survived 4 years of class with almost 7-8 courses in 1st and 2nd year should not be in med school, but someone who cruised by with a 4.0 and took only 4-5 classes is the perfect candidate.

[MedDream]

Now I'm almost convinced med schools are idiotic enough to purely look at just a GPA and put program difficulty, class average, and many other things out of context (or completely disregard them).

 

I agree with this. I'm happy with my program, but I think if I wasn't as scared about the crazy GPA drop that tends to happen for engineering students, I would be going an eng degree right now. When I considered switching, the thing that held me back was the fear of not being able to maintain stellar grades. To me, engineering undergrad + med school = amazing educational experience. I doubt the way med schools evaluate incoming students will change though. If entering cutoffs are based on "difficulty of program" there is going to be all that debate on what qualifies and "difficult" and all those grey areas (different programs are difficult for different people, ex... my average would probably be 15% lower if I was an english major )

[medrobotics]

Yeah True that

 

I mean, honestly to justify performance of students in a program like Health Sci because of the high entrance average is absurd - and I've gone through something to prove that Came in with a 98% average into Eng Sci, dropped down to a 70, and rebounded to an 80 or so in my last two years.

 

I think MCATs should be weighted more heavily, though it seems like from high school, Canadian unis have this tendency of only looking at marks. You know, grades from different schools is a gray area in itself - who are they (whoever makes up that OMSAS conversion chart) to deem a program "worth" so much in terms of GPA, but blatantly disregard specific (and especially flagship) programs within the university? (I'm comparing say something like engineering science and film studies at u of T).

 

You know, to give an American analogy to this, compare a Harvard pre-med student and a Johns Hopkins pre-med (the latter is usually in something like Biomedical Engineering). The Harvard (aka our Mac health sci) student comes out with his/her beautiful 3.9-4.0 cGPA, while the JHU grad comes out with a 3.4-3.6. But why do both ultimately make it to top notch med schools? The MCAt. Its the only common way to measure students of varying caliber. Glad at least McMaster is taking a step forward by using the verbal reasoning section as a means for assessing applicant competitiveness to their med school (unlike, say U of t which just uses it as a cutoff)

[MedDream]

medrobotics, I think we could become friends

[medrobotics]

Lol sure. You know, me and my friend once joked about going to Lakehead for undergrad engineering (we both did Shad Valley there) and LOL lo and behold, we woulda actually had a decent shot at NOSM (which didnt exist back when I entered - 2006)

[UTPEOPLE]

Yeah True that

 

I mean, honestly to justify performance of students in a program like Health Sci because of the high entrance average is absurd - and I've gone through something to prove that Came in with a 98% average into Eng Sci, dropped down to a 70, and rebounded to an 80 or so in my last two years.

 

I think MCATs should be weighted more heavily, though it seems like from high school, Canadian unis have this tendency of only looking at marks. You know, grades from different schools is a gray area in itself - who are they (whoever makes up that OMSAS conversion chart) to deem a program "worth" so much in terms of GPA, but blatantly disregard specific (and especially flagship) programs within the university? (I'm comparing say something like engineering science and film studies at u of T).

 

You know, to give an American analogy to this, compare a Harvard pre-med student and a Johns Hopkins pre-med (the latter is usually in something like Biomedical Engineering). The Harvard (aka our Mac health sci) student comes out with his/her beautiful 3.9-4.0 cGPA, while the JHU grad comes out with a 3.4-3.6. But why do both ultimately make it to top notch med schools? The MCAt. Its the only common way to measure students of varying caliber. Glad at least McMaster is taking a step forward by using the verbal reasoning section as a means for assessing applicant competitiveness to their med school (unlike, say U of t which just uses it as a cutoff)

 

I totally agree with increasing the weighting of the MCAT to at least 50%

[sfinch]

As I have mentioned time and time again - health sci at mac is a garbage program and McMAster is a disgrace for tolerating that crap at their university simply to increase the university's prestige.

[mattg]

As I have mentioned time and time again - health sci at mac is a garbage program and McMAster is a disgrace for tolerating that crap at their university simply to increase the university's prestige.

 

It's not a garbage program. It's probably one of the best premed programs in Canada (course-wise and oppurtunity-wise). But their marks are hugely inflated - much easier to get a 3.9+ in the program than any other program I have ever heard of - and they have a much easier time getting into med schools in Canada. That's why something like 70% of them get into med school (and of the 30% that don't, i would guess that at least half don't want to... I know several health sci's who wanted to go into research or vet school over meds by 4th year)... all of that said, if a high school student with a 95% average told me he/she wanted to go into meds, and asked which program would be the best vehicle... I would say Mac health sci without a doubt

 

I agree though that the high highschool marks is an extremely weak argument to account for their grades being hugely superior to any other program I have ever heard of in Canada... not to mention the suggestion that good peer support and a helpful staff/profs partially accounts for their grades, which is laughable lol

[ChicoMaki]

70% is a huge overestimate...

It's closer to 40% of students in the program (probably 60% of those who apply). with a class of 160, close to 50 students out of the 100+ who apply). Couple that with students who do want to do a MSc, Dentistry, etc.

 

Again, being from the program, I can truthfully say that I believe some students truly take the "bird courses" to get by, but not everyone does. Ppl group health scis together but I'd argue that should no be the case because like everyone program, there are many diverse personalities and opinions within the program. I would have to agree with what mattg has said above. If someone asked me what program would best assist them getting into med school, I'd tell everyone health sci. However, i preface that by saying its not for everyone (the style of learning) and that you need to do well in school no matter what to apply and get in.

[mattg]

70% is a huge overestimate...

It's closer to 40% of students in the program (probably 60% of those who apply). with a class of 160, close to 50 students out of the 100+ who apply). Couple that with students who do want to do a MSc, Dentistry, etc.

I was just going by the numbers that people in health sci have quoted over the past few years - I'm not sure if the actual stats would be available (I doubt it)... I would guess that >60% of those in the program who actually apply to med get in (somewhere)... from the people I know and have talked to, my estimate would be 130 out of 160 apply... and 90 or so / 130 get in somewhere (after undergrad)... a bit over 70% of those who apply (and i guess over 50% of the program)... but who knows

 

Again, being from the program, I can truthfully say that I believe some students truly take the "bird courses" to get by, but not everyone does. Ppl group health scis together but I'd argue that should no be the case because like everyone program, there are many diverse personalities and opinions within the program.

I would agree that health sci's are often grouped together, and shouldn't neccessarily be. A large majority of you guys do deserve to get into med school, and do work hard. The arguement is just that it is easier to excel academically in the health sci program as compared to most other programs in Canada. Nothing about the students... like I said, a large portion of the students do deserve to get in, and probably a significant number would have as well in other programs... but I don't think that the numbers of health sci students that do get in would have all gotten in had it not been for health sci... I think you would probably agree (that the number would drop at least somewhat)

 

I would have to agree with what mattg has said above. If someone asked me what program would best assist them getting into med school, I'd tell everyone health sci. However, i preface that by saying its not for everyone (the style of learning) and that you need to do well in school no matter what to apply and get in.

I agree, while I would say it's the best premed program in Canada (that I know of), it's not for everyone... personally, although I think it is a great premed program, I probably wouldn't enjoy it. While I enjoy taking a couple of health sci courses per year, out of interest, I prefer the majority of my courses to test-based for the most part.

[ChicoMaki]

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/bhsc/graduates.html

 

Click the each class to see stats on each class in BHSc (since the first graduating class of 2004)

it varies between 40% and 50% for each year (Assuming those who didn't respond did not get in)

 

But yes, i agree with what you've said, including that #s would drop

[medrobotics]

Just out of curiosity, isnt there like an external review committee that assesses a university's academic programs (i.e. their teaching, support, enrollment, MARK DISTRIBUTIONS, etc). Im pretty sure that several people have noticed an UNUSUALLY high average for students in the program (and Im probably willing to bet you McMaster representatives say these kids come in with high entrance averages, they`re high achievers,etc). Why isnt anything being done about it ....