McMaster Health Science

[Arrow]

Well, we can't bash it on personal experience if we are not in it - we can only base it on what people in the program tell us. My friends who are in the program have told me numerous instances where it is apparent that Mac HS grads basically have a free ride. I mean, just a few days ago they told me that this year, one of the profs gave an A+ to almost everyone in the class because she didn't want to mark every single person and did it based on whether they handed in their work or not. I keep hearing so many sketchy things from the ppl in that program.

I suppose that some guys just like to show off and exagerate. ("I'm getting a free ride! Ha! you are not") Did you know that last year the median of all high school admission grades was 95% for HealthSci? That means half the students had 95% or higher. One year earlier, two thirds had HS averages of 95% or higher. I still cannot comprehend why 'outsiders' find it unfair that the average GPA is around 80% for HealthSci students. If you take, for example, all students that got the UofT Scholars award and would calculate their aveage, would you be surprised to learn that it would be 80%? I would be surprised if it would be ONLY 80%. (And I'm surprised that the Health Sci average is that LOW). I might be biased, but I only know four people personally that went to UofT, and two finished first year with a 4.0 GPA.

Also you do not decide your own mark in any HealthSci course. Yes, in ONE course (first year Inquiry) you can argue why you believe you deserve a certain mark, but it has to be substantiated and the facilitator has the final say. And yes, there is another course (second year Inquiry) where you work in a group of 10-12 and only two people are choosen randomly to present the project. Based on their presentation, everyone in the group will get the same mark (which could be an A+, but also much lower).

[getreal]

i am currently in healtsci and really...i would say that one of the few things it's useful for IS for getting into med school. There's a lot of course options available as someone else mentioned so you im sure that can help when it comes your interview. In terms of the whole mark inflation, lemme just say that there's 6 been courses where I received marks that I was not satisfied with and out of the 6 courses, THREE were healthsci courses so no, i do not think healthsci courses are easy at all. i think the BIGGEST downside to healthsci is that it actually LIMITS you to your options outside med school. If you become interested in a very competitive grad program at another school (ie york's clinical child psych phd), they are not even gonna LOOK at your application because it's not a pysch undergrad.

 

back to the discussion of med school...to be blunt, whether you are ARE or ARE NOT in the program but want to go to medical school, you need to seriously consider whether realistically, you will get in. I would say the biggest downfall of "pre-med" students is that they are focused on the one goal of getting into med school...but really, if your GPA isn't at at least a 3.9, perhaps you should also consider other options such as graduate school. There has definitely been students who in my opinion were exceptional in their undergrad and in the end, did not get into med school and because that was their ONLY focus, they did not consider any alternative options and at that point, you basically are forced to waste an extra year doing nothing because most likely, you're not gonna get into a masters/phd program (a decent one anyways) if you are lookin at it in may.

I think it's great that youths today are very ambitious and aim for very high goals but at the same time...i think that it is necessary to consider alternatives just in case it doesn't work out...b/c lets face it, there is a definite element of lottery in the application process.

 

the above are just my views, you are free to think otherwise.

[2011hope]

I am a mac health sci grad and I enjoyed the program more or less. I had the opportunity to take some interesting courses and learn in a style that I would not have been exposed to elsewhere. But it is certainly not easier to get good grades in than in any other program. I took plenty of non-hlth sci courses as well and, personally, I found it easier to get A+s in those non hlth sci courses than in hlth sci courses where I mostly got As/A-s and B+s. I got a C in a health sci course and I took a non-health sci version of the same subject and got an A. So, you never know.

 

A lot depends on who you are and what you like to learn and how you like to learn it. Hth sci leaves a lot of room for electives and I have friends who did minors in psych or religious studies or who just took a lot of bio courses etc., etc.

 

I would say that the main advantage of health sci at mac is the freedom it gives you to direct your own learning.

[bayervillager]

Did you know that last year the median of all high school admission grades was 95% for HealthSci? That means half the students had 95% or higher. One year earlier, two thirds had HS averages of 95% or higher. I still cannot comprehend why 'outsiders' find it unfair that the average GPA is around 80% for HealthSci students. If you take, for example, all students that got the UofT Scholars award and would calculate their aveage, would you be surprised to learn that it would be 80%? I would be surprised if it would be ONLY 80%. (And I'm surprised that the Health Sci average is that LOW). I might be biased, but I only know four people personally that went to UofT, and two finished first year with a 4.0 GPA.

 

Hey Arrow! I think your explanation for the high averages in Mac Health Sci would make sense, except that I don't think there is a great correlation between high school marks with university marks once the high school marks are past a certain threshold. A personal example first: for the Biochemistry program at Queen's, I knew of three others from the same year who had received the Principal's entrance scholarship out of high school, which at that time meant a high school average >97%. One student finished 4th year with a mid-70s average; one had barely made the mark cut-off to 4th year biochemistry; and one failed out of the program mid-way and switched majors. I can also tell you that the faces at the Principal's entrance scholarship reception for Arts&Sci at Queen's at the beginning of first year looked quite different from the faces at the Dean's List with Distinction receptions later in time. A more objective example: the entry average at Waterloo Computer Sciences had once hit the high 90s at the peak of the tech boom due to the huge demand for the program. However, that particular class' average was definitely not 80%. Waterloo's Comp Sci was, and mostly likely still is, a pretty brutal program.

 

So there're really two ways to look at the high entry grades and the high averages in Mac Health Sci. Some would argue that the high school grades are high and thus the in-class averages are high due to the fantastic calibre of the students; others would argue just as convincingly that the in-class averages are so high because it is an easy program, and the high entry grades are simply the effect of the huge demand for the (reputedly) easy program among keen high school students.

 

Please don't think I'm hating on Mac Health Science though I'm just pointing something out. In all probablity it's a mixture of both that explains the incredible in-class averages phenomenon at Mac Health Sciencei.

[medaholic]

Hey Arrow! I think your explanation for the high averages in Mac Health Sci would make sense, except that I don't think there is a great correlation between high school marks with university marks once the high school marks are past a certain threshold. A personal example first: for the Biochemistry program at Queen's, I knew of three others from the same year who had received the Principal's entrance scholarship out of high school, which at that time meant a high school average >97%. One student finished 4th year with a mid-70s average; one had barely made the mark cut-off to 4th year biochemistry; and one failed out of the program mid-way and switched majors. I can also tell you that the faces at the Principal's entrance scholarship reception for Arts&Sci at Queen's at the beginning of first year looked quite different from the faces at the Dean's List with Distinction receptions later in time. A more objective example: the entry average at Waterloo Computer Sciences had once hit the high 90s at the peak of the tech boom due to the huge demand for the program. However, that particular class' average was definitely not 80%. Waterloo's Comp Sci was, and mostly likely still is, a pretty brutal program.

 

So there're really two ways to look at the high entry grades and the high averages in Mac Health Sci. Some would argue that the high school grades are high and thus the in-class averages are high due to the fantastic calibre of the students; others would argue just as convincingly that the in-class averages are so high because it is an easy program, and the high entry grades are simply the effect of the huge demand for the (reputedly) easy program among keen high school students.

 

Please don't think I'm hating on Mac Health Science though I'm just pointing something out. In all probablity it's a mixture of both that explains the incredible in-class averages phenomenon at Mac Health Sciencei.

 

Most likely a combination of self-selection and curriculum. But let's not hate / idol worship any program. The fact is that medical students come from all sorts of backgrounds, so choose what fits you best.

 

I was rejected from health sci, but it turns out that might have been the best thing that happened to me. I learned a lot about myself from my undergrad program, met some great people and got into medical school early. There is no one size fits all program.

[sfinch]

ShootingStar chose McGill over Health Sciences at MAC. She/he has now been nailed with some harsh marks at McGill (including a 70% on a psych midterm worth 35% of her mark). Hopefully she will recover, but by choosing McGill over MAC health sci, she has now put her future in Medicine, and the security that such a profession brings, at potential risk.

 

Health Sci is GUARANTEED to get you into medicine if you do basic work. Don't pass it up if you get into the program. I knew someone from BC that chose UofT over health sci at MAC...and got a 3.2 in his first 2 years...he transferred to UVic and finished his undergrad final two years with a 3.95 and 4.0. He is applying this year, but is essentially shut out of many schools in the country (he interviewed at uwo last yr but did not get in off the waitlist). The guy knows if he went to Hamilton instead, he'd probably be in his 2nd yr of med school at UofT or MAC.

[All_star]

I am in the physics program at McMaster and I know a few health science people. I personally steered clear of this program, because for me it would have been a useless program even if I do choose Medicine as my career. If you want to go to medical school for sure and you get into that program, by all means go for it. The program name is not what gets most of them into medical school.

 

I've read a few of the above posts about why the GPA is so high in the program. Well its true they have a high entrance average, but face it high school marks mean relatively nothing. Depends on the difficulty of the high school. I know people who came into university with high 90 averages who don't even hit an A GPA. The high GPA is probably due to a combined effect of the high entrance and the relative difficulty of the work. The program is geared towards medicine, so they can find more time to do extracurricular activities. My information comes from my friends in the program, so the source is a combination of my opinion as well as insider opinions.

 

All in all, this program is there to assist you in getting high marks and having time to pursue other extracirriculars to pad up your resume which may be relatively harder in other programs. Without a doubt I am sure it is still work, but from the program itself probably less since you can have time to do those extras which the work towards that would combine to be the same as any other program.

[2011hope]

 

Health Sci is GUARANTEED to get you into medicine if you do basic work.

 

No, it ain't. As a mac health sci grad who did more than basic work and has a subpar gpa I can attest to that. I can also introduce you to lots of other mac health sci grads in the same/similar situation. Health sci is not an easy program and, as someone who is having to do a second degree (and finding it WAY easier than mac health sci) in order to pursue my dream of medicine after not being able to get in from mac health sci I get a little bit offended when I see people saying this.

 

Not only am I speaking as a mac health sci grad but I also have the added experience of having taken courses (and am now doing a 2nd degree) at other universities so I can make a direct comparison. I have found my non-health sci work to be much easier than my health sci work. In fact, even while I was in health sci at mcmaster I would regularly get higher grades in my non-health sci courses than in my health sci courses. I also have friends who found the same thing.

 

As I have stated, and others have stated, many times on this forum, the people who get into health sci are already excellent students. That is why the gpas tend to be high and the admittance rate to med school from mac hlth sci tends to be high. It is NOT because the program is somehow easy or "guaranteed" to get you into meds. Myself and several friends of mine are living proof of that.

[ShootingStar]

ShootingStar chose McGill over Health Sciences at MAC. She/he has now been nailed with some harsh marks at McGill (including a 70% on a psych midterm worth 35% of her mark). Hopefully she will recover, but by choosing McGill over MAC health sci, she has now put her future in Medicine, and the security that such a profession brings, at potential risk.

 

I agree.

 

Though to defend myself, it is the only mark that I've gotten that's below an A. As well, I cannot imagine myself to be at anywhere else besides McGill - I really do love this university, and I don't regret my decision one bit.

 

However, coming to McGill, I have come to accept the fact that I won't always be at the top of my classes. Most people in sciences are extremely competitive, and literally ~85% (according to clicker answer during the first bio class) of the entering science class has med school in mind. So if competition is not your thing, I don't suggest coming to McGill.

 

But as I said, I still think it's a matter of personal choice... I use competition as a way to motivate myself. Knowing that half of the class did better than me on a midterm will only make me work twice, or maybe three times as hard for the final, and like you said, hopefully I will recover.

[Arrow]

No, it ain't. As a mac health sci grad who did more than basic work and has a subpar gpa I can attest to that. I can also introduce you to lots of other mac health sci grads in the same/similar situation. Health sci is not an easy program and, as someone who is having to do a second degree (and finding it WAY easier than mac health sci) in order to pursue my dream of medicine after not being able to get in from mac health sci I get a little bit offended when I see people saying this.

 

Not only am I speaking as a mac health sci grad but I also have the added experience of having taken courses (and am now doing a 2nd degree) at other universities so I can make a direct comparison. I have found my non-health sci work to be much easier than my health sci work. In fact, even while I was in health sci at mcmaster I would regularly get higher grades in my non-health sci courses than in my health sci courses. I also have friends who found the same thing.

 

As I have stated, and others have stated, many times on this forum, the people who get into health sci are already excellent students. That is why the gpas tend to be high and the admittance rate to med school from mac hlth sci tends to be high. It is NOT because the program is somehow easy or "guaranteed" to get you into meds. Myself and several friends of mine are living proof of that.

What? Not "guaranteed"? I want my money back!

 

(thanks for clearing that up once and for all, btw)

[Lana_]

I asked a health sciences graduate about the program, and he said "mmm, Health Sciences is great. They give you easy marks and that helps you succeed in anything you want to do after!"

 

And another time I was at my best friend's house, and his brother (who's currently in the program) said that health sciences was easy. He wants to be a doctor.

 

I've heard this on two separate occasions from VERY reliable sources!!

[PipeDream]

I had a huge response to this written up, but what's the point in fueling the fire. Next year, there will still be 2700-3300 hundred high school applicants for ~170 spots, and of those 170 roughly 50% of them will go onto medicine, and virtually all will go onto to some form of graduate schools. And next year, these threads will keep on going and going. Fueling the fire is pointless.

[The Law]

Die Thread Die

[igeorgex]

I had a huge response to this written up, but what's the point in fueling the fire. Next year, there will still be 2700-3300 hundred high school applicants for ~170 spots, and of those 170 roughly 50% of them will go onto medicine, and virtually all will go onto to some form of graduate schools. And next year, these threads will keep on going and going. Fueling the fire is pointless.

 

well said. you just won this thread.

[2011hope]

The program gives one good insight into medicine as a career early on.

 

Compared to most science programs in Ontario, even when taking into account a high secondary admission average, marks are VERY easy to come by. If you work reasonably hard, your gpa will be competitive for virtually every med school out there - even if you are average or slightly below in your program. As marks are the most important part of admissions, health sciences is ideal.

I used to do some admissions work at McMaster. Marks might be tightened up in the future, but not in the near future.

 

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

Hi Descartes,

 

I know that this is an old thread/post but I just came across it and I must protest. As I have written in other threads, I take this rather personally. I am a McMaster Health Sci grad and am now doing a 2nd degree to raise my gpa for med school. I worked hard in health sci and I am smart and a good student. My gpa, though, is subpar for medical school admissions in Ontario. In fact, the highest grades I got were usually in non-health sci courses. I also have several friends who worked hard in health sci, are very smart, are good students, and have the same problem I have. If what you say were true, that implies that I did not even work "reasonably hard." I know, however, that I worked very hard.

 

Now, doing my 2nd degree I am finding things MUCH easier than health sci. Just as I routinely got A+ grades in non-health sci courses but got lower grades in most health sci courses, I find in my 2nd degree, at a different university, that I barely have to do anything to get A+ grades. So my personal experience (as well as that of several fellows health scis with whom I have spoken) has been that health sci is harder to do well in than many other programs.

[sfinch]

The guy you're talking to is postin on another thread. Go there.

 

My take is that you are doing a 2nd degree as a more mature student. People invariably do better in 2nd undergraduate degrees! Transferring universities between 1-3 yr on a first degree is probably the best way to compare.

 

Health Scie students in my class seem pretty average considering they are all sporting 3.95 GPAs. Alastriss in windsor has noted it, and so have the guys here in London. Their MCATs are also low to average for UWO (from the several that I know due to their real identity and figuring out their premed101 identity when they publicized their MCAT).

 

I think you guys just think the world owes you a medicine degree and 95% averages in university. Just 20 years ago, the University of Toronto would grant no more than 5-10% of their students marks over 80 in first year courses, and only 1-3% 90s. No MAC health Scie gives 40% of their students 90s, and somehow they have one of the hardest programs in the planet? Health Sciences, for an undergrad program, still takes 160+ students- it's not as selective or small as some people think!

 

You know what you want now, and will probably do better. You were probably one of those students at Health Sciences that was crappy at group work. I know that the class averages are 3.90: they are! You were clearly at the bottom of the pile in that class. You also went to MAC, which is seemingly alot easier than schools like Queens, UBC and UToronto anyways, so you doing well in a few general courses does not mean much.

[2011hope]

The guy you're talking to is postin on another thread. Go there.

 

My take is that you are doing a 2nd degree as a more mature student. People invariably do better in 2nd undergraduate degrees! Transferring universities between 1-3 yr on a first degree is probably the best way to compare.

 

Health Scie students in my class seem pretty average considering they are all sporting 3.95 GPAs. Alastriss in windsor has noted it, and so have the guys here in London. Their MCATs are also low to average for UWO (from the several that I know due to their real identity and figuring out their premed101 identity when they publicized their MCAT).

 

I think you guys just think the world owes you a medicine degree and 95% averages in university. Just 20 years ago, the University of Toronto would grant no more than 5-10% of their students marks over 80 in first year courses, and only 1-3% 90s. No MAC health Scie gives 40% of their students 90s, and somehow they have one of the hardest programs in the planet? Health Sciences, for an undergrad program, still takes 160+ students- it's not as selective or small as some people think!

 

You know what you want now, and will probably do better. You were probably one of those students at Health Sciences that was crappy at group work. I know that the class averages are 3.90: they are! You were clearly at the bottom of the pile in that class. You also went to MAC, which is seemingly alot easier than schools like Queens, UBC and UToronto anyways, so you doing well in a few general courses does not mean much.

 

rolfmao. I don't know who raised this sfinch guy but he sure is good for a laugh. Mods, I know he has posted some crazy and offensive stuff in other threads but please don't ever ban him. The amusement is just too good hahaha lol

[sfinch]

Why are you laughing? You're the only person that's every worked hard in heath sciences at MAC and couldn't get into medicine. How lowly is that? Who's laughing now?

[emcd]

The guy you're talking to is postin on another thread. Go there.

 

My take is that you are doing a 2nd degree as a more mature student. People invariably do better in 2nd undergraduate degrees! Transferring universities between 1-3 yr on a first degree is probably the best way to compare.

 

Health Scie students in my class seem pretty average considering they are all sporting 3.95 GPAs. Alastriss in windsor has noted it, and so have the guys here in London. Their MCATs are also low to average for UWO (from the several that I know due to their real identity and figuring out their premed101 identity when they publicized their MCAT).

 

I think you guys just think the world owes you a medicine degree and 95% averages in university. Just 20 years ago, the University of Toronto would grant no more than 5-10% of their students marks over 80 in first year courses, and only 1-3% 90s. No MAC health Scie gives 40% of their students 90s, and somehow they have one of the hardest programs in the planet? Health Sciences, for an undergrad program, still takes 160+ students- it's not as selective or small as some people think!

 

You know what you want now, and will probably do better. You were probably one of those students at Health Sciences that was crappy at group work. I know that the class averages are 3.90: they are! You were clearly at the bottom of the pile in that class. You also went to MAC, which is seemingly alot easier than schools like Queens, UBC and UToronto anyways, so you doing well in a few general courses does not mean much.

 

dude, don't you have anything better to do with your life?

[igeorgex]

what fun would exist for non-health scis if they couldn't boost their ego by actively finding out they are as smart, or smarter, than anyone in health sci? just kidding!

 

but on a more serious note, I don't understand why people from other programs/universities have to validate their marks be devaluing ours? the comparison is always between two completely different programs, with vastly differing pedagogies. there's no use to compare. if everyone is so sure that "health scis don't deserve to be in med school" then you'd think the adcoms would stop accepting us?

 

and you might say we have the advantage of just getting to the interview stage with our "highly inflated GPAs". the only way you'll do well in health sci is if you have the right mindset (which the supplementary apps determine). it's structured on self-directed, problem-based, group work. if you can't succeed at these courses, then you're not going to get an "inflated health sci GPA". it is just a different way of learning, but nevertheless marks are not just given out. all programs at the university need to be held accountable to the standards of university policy, and the standards set out by the VP education. just sayin'.

[future_doc]

( igeorgex )

[WestEastMountGuy]

what fun would exist for non-health scis if they couldn't boost their ego by actively finding out they are as smart, or smarter, than anyone in health sci? just kidding!

 

but on a more serious note, I don't understand why people from other programs/universities have to validate their marks be devaluing ours? the comparison is always between two completely different programs, with vastly differing pedagogies. there's no use to compare. if everyone is so sure that "health scis don't deserve to be in med school" then you'd think the adcoms would stop accepting us?

 

and you might say we have the advantage of just getting to the interview stage with our "highly inflated GPAs". the only way you'll do well in health sci is if you have the right mindset (which the supplementary apps determine). it's structured on self-directed, problem-based, group work. if you can't succeed at these courses, then you're not going to get an "inflated health sci GPA". it is just a different way of learning, but nevertheless marks are not just given out. all programs at the university need to be held accountable to the standards of university policy, and the standards set out by the VP education. just sayin'.

 

Probably has something to do with the fact that Med Schools don't care about "completely different programs". You're GPA is your GPA. An Engineer is a Psych Major, is a Bio Major, is a Music Major, is a Health Sci..

[Morzan]

Isn't it possible that the 200 or so hs applicants that get accepted out of 3000, are the best academically. Making it seem like mac health sci inflates grades, when in fact those 200/3000 students genuinly earned the grades? b/c they're the "best of the best?"

[sfinch]

So without standardized tests in Ontario, we are to presume that the MAC health scies are the best of the best? The small MAC health sci program (160 students) has as many if not more >3.95 cGPA students than ALL OF UOFT and ALL OF UBC. The 100+ new med students in primarily Ontario schools from this little program (the stats show 80 per year, but many of the students with unanswered surveys are also in meds) is almost the size of Queen's med school, and is larger than Northern Ontario Medical school. This small program of 160 students/yr produces almost as many medical students per year as the University of Toronto, with its 10 thousand + new students per year spread out over 3 campuses. It produces several times over as many students as York, which is almost the size of the University of Toronto.

 

In other words, little MAC Health Sciences produces almost as many medical students as the University of Toronto and York University COMBINED - and these are the two largest universities in one of the largest cities in North America.

 

Give me a break. The health scie kids are no smarter than the com eng students at Waterloo, or Eng Sci at Toronto, or the people in the elite specialist programs at UToronto or UBC. The grades are inflated, and the degree is feely touchy crap.

[sfinch]

ALOT of those accepted to Health Sciences do not go to the program - but choose to stay at home or accept larger scholarships elsewhere, or experience college life in a more fun town like London (for those that like towns like london!), or live in an exciting DIVERSE city like Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver. In other words, the 200 accepted are not the top 200 out of those 3000 high school students.