Dannyboy, Just curious what's the issue with UofT

[Guest newbee]

Hey there Dannyboy,

 

I've been reading your posts and it seems that you don't like UofT very much. I was wondering if you could share your thoughts as to why you feel its not a good school etc. Are you a mature student? Have you just spent too much time downtown?

 

Thanks alot

Newbee

[Guest Dannyboy]

well, for starters, if what has happened to me was unique to me then I would just keep my opinions to myself but I can safely say that I my experiences with U of T are hardly unique. I am surrounded by grad students whose experiences pale in comparision to mine. At a minimum, I was paid to come to U of T so at least I didn't pay to be mistreated; many people I know paid international fees without the benefit of scholarhips/fellowships to do so. I feel for them.

However, I moved my family to Toronto so I did pay a price. My experiences have also made me question if I want to continue in post-secondary education.

 

So a brief overview of my least favorite things about U of T:

 

1. lack of academic freedom. I came from a school which stressed freedom of speech and treated ALL of their students with respect and dignity. Within the first month of school my cohort were instructed not to say anything controversial and that if we had any hopes of "surviving" U of T that we better learn not to think and "just do".

 

2. total lack of respect. EVERYONE should be treated with respect until such time they have been shown not to deserve it. Grad students are usually treated very well--for my department, an A/A- average is manditory. We've all earned respect within the academic realm. We are all highly qualified, motivated and dedicated students. Yet, we are referred to as "children" and are needlessly subject to intrusive and excessive control---e.g. we need to clear EVERYTHING with our profs. We aren't even trusted with the keys to our department--that is standard in most any other school I know of.

 

3. too many of the profs. I have found them to be far too paternalistic and they are so research focused, instruction takes a distant backseat. It is all about them--if you can somehow be a benefit to them then great but otherwise you do not exist. Worse, you are a thorn in their side---especially if you criticise their course, research or their performance. This is NOT the case at either of my undergrads schools. You had bad profs but...

 

4. lack of a forum that will effectively and *positively* handled conflict. Conflict is inevitable--how it is received, handled and ultimately resolved speaks to the value a school/department assigns its students. In my department, those who complain pay a HUGE price. Students are punished and the profs know this--nothing happens to the profs.

 

5. sexist attitudes. I had a class this semester in which the prof OPENly ignored the females in the class. Those who refused to be silenced are paying too great a price--they are continuously criticised by the prof in front of the students. The prof is a total bully and why? Obviously cuz he's jerk but also because he gets away with it. There is one prof who ONLY takes on good looking female Phd students. He has been doing this for years.

 

6. it is too conservative for me. My department is thought to be very innovative but they are clueless--they could not be less innovative. Any original thought is laughed at. ARggggggggggh.

 

7. it is not student focused. It is research focused but please, there is no need to treat students like numbers!

 

8. elitism. U of T is big on it being an "ivy league" school without asking the pivotal question: is "ivy league" better?

 

9. crappy libary services. Robarts? What a nightmare!! The staff at the libaries are too often unhelpful and downright mean. The Bora Laskin law library is the worst.

 

10. classes are too often too big.

 

11. it's too expensive.

 

12. Drum roll please.....it is totally INBRED. Good lordy gordy....almost all other schools actively discourage their students from doing more than one of their degrees at the same school. Not at U of T. In my department almost all of the Phd students have not only one U of T degree but TWO--yep, they have NEVER experienced any other system. One prof has three degrees and now teachers there (and he is absolutely hideous). There are some excellent reasons why students should spread their wings....and there are even more important reasons why a school should never be allowed to have such an strong preference for their students: DISCRIMINATION.

 

13. unfair practices regarding grading and financial awards. I've been told that unfair grading is just par for the course. We had two profs last semester who opening marked people unfairly---nothing was done when we complained. The profs opening admitted it but still, nothing was done. I was the ONLY non-U of T student from my cohort to get funding. Others had much higher GPAs than the U of T students who got $$. TAships were only given to U of T students even though others had applied and were equally if not more qualified. Most of the U of T students who go a TA position hadn't even applied--that is how obviously the unfair hiring practices were.

 

14. I have NEVER contemplated quitting anything important in my life but I would definitely quit this program if I had a choice--for financial reasons I can not. I was even going to decline my med school interview out of fear that Mac could be similiar (many people convinced me that it would not).

 

I could go on but I have yet another brainless, unoriginal, formulaic essay to get back to.

 

Sorry if I've offended any U of T fans. I don't completely hate it--I think the administrative staff at my department are top notch. I have made incredible contacts. I have had a few truly *wonderful* profs (who agree with all my criticisms). The school itself is beautiful. My degree might not mean anything to me but it does have considerable clout.

 

I have heard about students loving the school--they are almost always undergrads but their experiences are just as valid. Although, I would argue that a comparative school experience is crucial if you are to put U of T into perspective. If all you know is U of T, how can you really rate the school?

 

In the end, my experience is just that--my experience. Well, I should say my cohort since I don't no anyone who doesn't hate the program. C'est la vie.

[Guest MayFlower1]

Dannyboy,

 

I am trully saddened by your experiences. I have to admit, my undergraduate and graduate studies (Concordia University and McGill University in Montreal) were completely different. I can truly say that while these schools aren't considered "Ivy League", they were amazing...supportive...creative...and encouraged me to do the best that I possibly could.

 

I don't blame you for being bitter...that experience would make anyone bitter.

 

I think this is one of the good points about being a "mature" student...we don't put up with that crap...but, at the same time, a school that ignores or protects that kind of behaviour probably wouldn't have us if they knew we'd be like we are. I have a feeling that medicine, traditionally, has been very hierarchical...I have a feeling that my confidence and ability to put things in perspective...and to establish boundaries, where appropriate, regardless of who is infringing on my comfort zone, has worked against me in the application process...if you're seriously interested in med school, you may want to supress this skill during your interview...as I believe this could work against you at some schools.

 

Peter

[Guest newbee]

Dannyboy:

 

I'm just curious How old are you?

 

 

I know my Mom had a really bad time doing a Master's at UofT for many of the reasons that you have outlined. She said it was harder for her to sit back and just "ignore" the things that were going on. She feels that being 33 when she started the Master's may have had something to do with it.

 

 

In any case good luck in your future studies, hopefully it will be a much more more pleasant experience in comparison to what you have been through.

 

Take Care

Newbee:)

[Guest Dannyboy]

Oh Peter....yes, the "I am bitter and I will not put up with your crap" stance is NOT the ideal interview vibe to project but no, I don't imagine that it will pop up in any interview situation. Ya never know though.

 

I don't quite understand what you meant with the last 5 or 6 sentences you wrote ("I have the feeling...") (?).

 

My previous post probably leaves you with the wrong impression: I am considered to be too laid back and easy going. Yeah, I am no B.S. for sure but in a nice way, I think.

 

Just thought I'd divulge a tidbit for you to comment on: a Mac recruiter once told me that the "trouble makers" were EXACTLY the type of students they were most interested in. He said that they want the students who challenge the status quo. I am still not convinced of this. Comments?

[Guest MayFlower1]

Dannyboy...

 

 

I have a feeling that medicine, traditionally, has been very hierarchical...I have a feeling that my confidence and ability to put things in perspective...and to establish boundaries, where appropriate, regardless of who is infringing on my comfort zone, has worked against me in the application process...if you're seriously interested in med school, you may want to supress this skill during your interview...as I believe this could work against you at some schools.

 

Sorry about the cryptic message...here's what I really meant:

 

My wife put up with a lot of crap during medical school and residency...arrogant teachers...arrogant staff (although most were amazing...to put things in perspective). One staff member, while my wife was performing gynaecological surgery, actually slapped her hand when she didn't do something the way she wanted. On another occasion, my wife indicated that she was having trouble locating a woman's urethrea which was quite swollen due to trauma...the staff doctor said (he was male)..."well, sweetie, maybe you should go sit over a mirror and practice on yourself." While I realize these examples are likely atypical of people's experiences, and extreme, they do enable me to make a point...I wouldn't put up with that CRAP...many students, my wife included, felt they didn't have much choice...they felt that if they complained, etc., that things "would be made difficult" for them...this is not an uncommon experience. So, what I really meant by the last few lines which you found cryptic is that it is possible the "powers that be" might not always appreciate people like us that are independent, can establish boundaries...who question...challenge, etc. Some (and definitely not all) want no more than drones to learn and not question...

 

I'm not sure which schools appreciate this style and which don't. I personally chose to mute this attribute of myself somewhat this year...there is an appropriate time and place to stand up for one's rights...I didn't feel compelled to talk about it out of context at my interview this year.

 

Peter

 

P.S. What's your real name?

[Guest peachy]

Dannyboy - I appreciate you taking the time to post your comments. They are greatly disturbing, but really important for those of us thinking of doing grad work there to know about?

 

What field are you in? Have you found these problems across all areas? Worse in medical sciences?

[Guest scalar]

Hello Peachy:

 

While I won't dispute that dannyboys experiences aren't true. I think you should talk to several people before you decide whether or not to pursue Graduate Studies. I have had nothing but the best experience. I had the opportunity to work on some really cutting edge microbiology issues. I have several publications and my prof even flew me to international conferences on HIS grant money. He wrote glowing letters for professional school (so he tells me) and was an absolute pleasure to work for. I personally know of 10 grad students (some past, some present) in the department of medical sciences who agree with me in the sentiment that UofT provided them with an excellent learning opportunity and the experience has and will serve them very well in the future.

 

I would also like to add that I have never experienced any sort of negative attitude either involving my gender (female) or abusive work conditions (being called a child etc.)

 

So please don't throw away what may be a terrific learning experience without fully exploring the department and talking to several people (both grad students and faculty) when you are in the process of decision making.

 

Interestingly a few of my older grad school friends went onto Med school and told me that the true horror stories with regards to assho*le supervisors and coworkers in their opinion were found on the wards during residency! :eek

 

Cheers

Scalar

[Guest Ian Wong]

Moved out of the General Premed forum into the Toronto forum...

 

Ian

[Guest Biochem10]

I have to agree with scalar that you should really look into the department you're thinking of doing grad studies in before you think U of T is that bad. Dannyboy, your experiences sound awful and actually remind me a bit of what I see going around McGill (disrespect for grad students), however, I met several U of T grad students who didn't share your opinion at all, in fact, one of the reasons I want to go to U of T is the feeling I got when I did summer research there that as a grad student you are not an inferior. I got the impression that you don't work FOR your supervisor, rather you work WITH him/her. Anyway, I'm still in undergrad, so I have yet to experience grad school, but from meeting people and spending some time around my department of interest at U of T, I have made the decision to either do an MD/PhD or a PhD at U of T (depending on whether I get into the first program).

[Guest peachy]

Yup, I agree with everybody that it's important to hear from many people, and that experience varies greatly from department to department and person to person. I definitely wouldn't register in a grad program without checking it out in person first.... Hmn. Except if I get into U of T MD/PhD. Then I'm DEFINITELY going there. :lol

 

I'm still curious what department Dannyboy is in, though!

[Guest Dannyboy]

Peachy and newbie: my advice to you is that grad school can be hideous...or not...depending on a wide variety of things. Unfortunately treatment is not department specific--I am in law; that won't tell you much other than: gosh, they should know better!!

 

I've heard horror stories about profs that I have had great experiences with. I've also had very negative experiences with profs that I had had great experiences with. Profs are notorious for treating students differently--at a minimum, a Phd or Phd-potential students are usually treated much better than a MA and/or undergrad student.

 

The bottom line and really the only advice I can offer you is this:

* be prepared for the worst but hope for the best

* conflict will always happen---HOW the department handles conflict is the true test, I think, of a department/school. Hearing glowing/negative statements from grads doesn't mean much since experiences are so prof, situation, and time specific.

* set clear boundaries regarding what you are willing to tolerate. Be generous with setting these parameters.Ask for help from family and friends with this but ultimately, you need to establish your limits. Try not to lose your ideals to your degree/research aspirations. I may not be proud of my MA but I am still proud of myself.

* your supervisor can make or break you--if you are not happy with him/her than in a very diplomatic way, change supervisors.

*Like my previous post read, I've had wonderful profs at U of T as well as terrible ones. Ask people their advice regarding profs but ask in such a way that the student can respond honestly and ask them to justify their comments. Don't settle for "oh he's great or she's a jerK"--ask why the person feels that way.

* ask BOTH genders about profs. There is one prof in my department that treats women like garbage but men like gold. Gender does matter but only for a minority of profs.

* don't let your grad work swallow you. There is a lot more to life than research/grad work.

* as always: HAVE FUN and stay away from those anti-depressants until they are an absolute must--that was a joke but sadly, many grad students do end up on anti-depressants. I'd like to see that stats on that one before I absolutely believe it but....

 

IF GRAD WORK IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO THAN DO IT

[Guest newbee]

Dannyboy:

 

 

You were in law? Are you completing a LLM? Did you already complete a LLB? Why the switch to medschool?

Do you have any sciences in your background? If not, are you hoping to squeeze into Mac? Did you think about medschool before you moved cross country?

 

 

Thanks for the info Dannyboy

 

You seem like a great resouce of information. I believe that honesty and candidness are traits you don't find in alot of people these days including some med school cadidates that I have met. Thanks for your input and all the information you have shared.

 

 

Again, I wish you the best

 

Newbee

[Guest habra]

As a person who did his undergrad and masters at UofT and who is completing his PH.D. at UWO I agree with most of what dannyboy said. UofT is cutthroat. The atmosphere in my department was not conducive to a collegial and friendly environment. For instance the makeup of first year graduate course was set up so that our marks depended on how well we criticized the works of our peers. I remember having these wicked anxiety attacks going to this class. It was horrible. At UofT I was just a number in the undergraduate studies. In gradschool they stiffed me on my scholarship and I had to take on OSAP. It was pathetic.

Western has been much more mellow and student friendly. I did not really care for UofT clout eventhough I got my first two degrees from there. I am really turned off by their arrogance. Just look at their admission procedures. Every other school more or less makes their decisions by march and April (as in who they want to interview etc etc). Last year I got a rejection in July! And when I phoned Bill Greg he had the audacity to tell me that I have no chance of getting admitted and succeeding in medicine. I found this to be very odd as I had an interview at Ottawa and that myself and my supervisor teach parts of a medical course here in London. I was thinking this is so typical of this elitist b.s. view at UofT that we are too good... you may never get in in our school..... I was thinking whatever dude, I am just enquiring about why you have not even had the courtesy to inform me about your decision until now!

UofT needs to change and become more student friendly or else the talent will go elsewhere. Many have. By the way doing well in grad school and going to international conferences is not exclusive to UofT. I have been to 4 in US and Europe in the past four years funded by my supervisor and the department here.

Just my two cents.

[Guest tappety tap]

DANNYBOY...I dont have any experience with U of T directly but have never heard bad things until reading this message board...This directly affects me because I have applied to a Masters in Public Health(thesis option) for the Fall and was very impressed with the program at least on paper. What department are you in? I am just curious if your experiences might be specific to a department or if it's an overall U of T graduate school phenomenon. Thanks.

[Guest Dannyboy]

well tappety tap you'll probably be glad to read that the positive experiences I have enjoyed have been connected with the public health department. I don't know too much about it but I know enough students who go there to write that it seems to be a solid department. I can recommend a few profs and I can certainly warn you of at least one who I'd avoid at any and all costs. Your personal link isn't activated hence I didn't send you the names.

 

I don't normally check the U of T site but I will check it in a few days to see if you've activated your link.

 

Once again, even with my positive and negative experiences, I can easily see another person NOT having similiar experiences/perceptions. Especially when thesis work is involved--that COMPLETELY changes the prof-student interpersonal dynamics. You have to look at the big picture: how are conflicts acknowledged, managed and ultimately resolved.

[Guest tappety tap]

ok i activated my email address when u click on my name...i'm confused, the bad experiences you had were with the public health dept or with another dept??

[Guest newbee]

Dannyboy,

 

 

You are being really cryptic about everything. I think alot of us would really benefit from your experience. Can you be clear as to what department you were in and what program you were pursuing. It would really help if you could disclose the full story rather than bits and pieces of info.

 

Thanks alot, We all appreciate it!!!!!

 

If you would like you can e-mail at debbielit2000@aol.com if that's better.

 

I really appreciate the info

 

Thanks again

[Guest cheech10]

From observing a number of labs and talking with many former grad students in my class, I've found that grad work experiences at all schools are very supervisor- and department-dependent. It's critical that prospective students examine both of these aspects before accepting a position, and evaluating them with respect to one's own personality and preferences. Two people can (and often do) have very different experieinces working under the same supervisor. Working in labs as a summer student, I saw people at both extremes: those that had incredible experiences, and those that went through hell. I think Dannyboy's experience should be a reminder to thoroughly investigate and evaluate any grad school program one is interested in. As a counterpoint, some friends of mine had great times in grad school at UofT; check out the program before making a decision.

[Guest Dannyboy]

Sorry if I've been interpreted as being "cryptic". I did note my faculty. My good experiences have been with the public health department. I did not post profs' names out of fairness to them. They may not have treated me and others well but they are not inherently evil nor do they mistreat everyone--I have been clear about this. LIke I previoulsy posted, I have had great experiences with profs that others have had terrible experiences with. I have always, however, respected others' experiences and have never belittled them are disgarded them as being insignificant or far worse, false.

 

I have been very clear (although it does not seem that everyone has picked up on this) that my experiences are mine and my cohorts (and my friends). I am critical of U of T for a number of reasons that have already been stated. I only wrote these because someone requested I note the reasons I am not satisfied with U of T. I have been to three other post-secondary schools; perhaps I've been 'spoiled' by these institutions. Whatever. I just know that U of T will not be posting this chick's face on a flagpost any time in my lifetime. That was a joke folks.

 

**I've tried to leave a message for tappety tap with out any luck. I think I successfully left one for newbee--let me know if it did not go through. I don't normally ever check Toronto's posts so if tappety tap still needs to get a hold of me I will try her/him in a few days.

[Guest tappety tap]

Would you mind must emailing me at melissarap11@hotmail.com I havent received any message from you so I'm guessing I'm not using this system properly...Thanks!!!

 

P.S. I didn't realize I was going to start such a debate about doing a Masters....thanks to everyone for stating their opinions, it has given me a lot of insight actually! As for me...I really do love research and will do it whether I become an MD or a PhD someday...CHEERS!