MD/PhD advantage for CaRMS?

[djmackj]

hey guys, I'm going into first year MD and have recently be alerted that my school is currently still accepting applications for the MD/PhD program. With a scholarship/studentship and a reduced MD tuition, this program really does give me some financial incentives. However, my main question is whether an MD/PhD would make me stand out in CaRMS applications. I read through a few specialty descriptions and they all mention research in that particular specialty as being highly regarded during the application process, so would a PhD in the area of a competitive specialty give me an advantage? I'm currently very interested in going into orthopedic surgery, but I'm not sure what research options there are in that field. Anyone has any pearls of wisdom? Thanks.

[Lactic Folly]

How much prior research experience do you have? Is it something you are genuinely interested in? Have you considered the 3 years of lost income in your calculations?

 

Sure, an MD/PhD would help you stand out, but it surely isn't necessary to be competitive during CaRMS. You can do research during medical school without committing yourself to a full-fledged PhD - unless you plan to pursue a research career.

[djmackj]

hi thanks for your response. I have done lots of research in the past, though I have yet to look into any type of research related to orthopedics. I enjoy research and can see myself involved in research in the future. My main goal however, is to get into orthopedic surgery. I hear about research that you can do during medical school, I'm guessing the only time you'll have to do the research is summer of Year I and Year II right? btw I will be going to UBC med.

[Lactic Folly]

Summers are the best time for projects, but if you are sufficiently motivated, you can do some work during the school year (perhaps something smaller like a case report) and during clerkship elective time that you devote to research.

[ploughboy]

However, my main question is whether an MD/PhD would make me stand out in CaRMS applications. I read through a few specialty descriptions and they all mention research in that particular specialty as being highly regarded during the application process, so would a PhD in the area of a competitive specialty give me an advantage? I'm currently very interested in going into orthopedic surgery, but I'm not sure what research options there are in that field.

 

Completely anecedotal evidence here, but one of my classmates did an MD/PhD and matched to an ultra-competitive specialty in a very popular city despite not having been an uber-keener for that specialty from the start of medical school. His research, however, was applicable to the specialty and he's a really bright dude.

 

A PhD can't hurt, especially if you know for sure that you want to be an orthopod. There's lots of research going on in ortho -- from the basic science side of things there's bone physiology and healing and material science, plus oncology etc etc. From the clin epi approach there's *always* clin epi projects kicking around in every medical specialty, so I'm sure you could find something ortho related.

 

You've probably already looked at http://www.orthosurgery.ubc.ca/research.html . It's a bit hit-and-miss, but is a good starting point.

 

However, keep in mind that an MD/PhD takes time, and that the lifestyle of orthopods really sucks. If you do an ortho-focused PhD and then decide in a few years that spouse/family/hobbies/etc are important to you, you've kinda painted yourself into a bit of a corner.

 

Second anecdote: a friend of mine basically came out of the womb wanting to be an orthopod, won a bunch of surgical awards in clerkship, etc and then had an epiphany in 4th year. She realized that although she loved the OR she hated everything else about the specialty, turned down a dozen ortho CaRMS interviews and matched to another specialty (where she's going to be totally awesome). Point being: plans change, people change.

 

Having said that, my post-call, talking-out-my-backside advice to you would be that if you pursue a PhD, try and make it applicable to more than one field. For instance, are you interested in oncology at all? Research in, say, bone tumors, would let you look appealing to orthopedic programs while also giving you an escape route into the world of medicine if you decide part-way through med school that you don't want to be an orthopod.

 

Like I said, I'm post-call and semi-coherent so take with a grain of salt.

 

pb

[ploughboy]

I should also add that ortho this year wasn't as competitive as in years past. No guarantees for 4-7 years from now, but a PhD may be overkill.

[Satsuma]

On the flipside, I know an MD/PhD who went unmatched after first round (not this years match), so it guarantees you nothing. This person matched in the second round to a rather unrelated specialty.

 

I would say consider it only if you really want and like to do research. The advantage it will give you would be that programs that are research intensive will see you as an asset and likely there will be an expectation that you continue to do research...and if you don`t want to then that kind of sucks.

 

I am speculating, but I would even think that it may be a disadvantage at some schools that are not research intensive.

 

For example, and I don`t have a PhD, just an MSc with decent publications. But one program asked me this specific question " so what do you see the disadvantages are of someone like you coming to do residency at a place like this". Rather open, so can certainly be answered well. But you can see that programs think about these things.

 

So I would advise to only do the combined program if a career as a clinician scientist truly interests you...considering that it will take you alot longer to graduate! And also realizing that you can do a PhD after /partly during residency if you end up deciding it is what you want. Don`t do it just for carms.

[djmackj]

thanks you guys, the advice have been enlightening. I didn't realize that orthopedics have a rough lifestyle, but it's something I've been thinking for a while. You're right, people's goals change all the time. The only reason why I even thought about PhD is because most specialties mentioned that doing related research is great for the application and I didn't know how difficult it is to find research to do during an MD program. Since PhD would guarantee that I have research to do, that's partly why I considered it. But I will give everything you guys said a lot of thought, since I'm not in that much of a hurry to apply to the PhD program anyways.

[Kuantum]

Hey,

 

Getting research in the MD program isn't actually that tough - especially at UBC. I would suggest you contact people early though to arrange something. You are also fortunate that UBC Ortho is it's own department with a lot of faculty and thus projects. Orthopedics at UBC has a lot of stuff going on and getting summer research with publications should not be a difficult task.

 

A PhD just to get research in your CV is probably overkill. These programs are generally designed for people who intend to be Clinician-Scientists in the future, not those looking to get in a little bit of research under their belt.

 

GL

[djmackj]

thanks Kuantum, nice to hear perspective from a fellow UBC student. I used to do part-time research during undergrad years at UofT which gave me greater chances of staying on with the same prof during the summer, do you guys think research during the school year is too difficult to manage for an MD program (ie. too stressful)? thanks

[Kuantum]

thanks Kuantum, nice to hear perspective from a fellow UBC student. I used to do part-time research during undergrad years at UofT which gave me greater chances of staying on with the same prof during the summer, do you guys think research during the school year is too difficult to manage for an MD program (ie. too stressful)? thanks

 

I know people who do it at UBC during 1st/2nd/3rd year (when not on big-3 - internal/peds/surg). I don't know about 4th year.

 

Maybe once you start and get a sense of how you study, you'll be better able to gauge what you can and cannot make time for.

K

[djmackj]

thanks Kuantum. Since you've been through this, I was wondering if the UBC MD program has any particular resources that they have gathered to help students find research? (perhaps important contacts or links to research opportunities)

[Kuantum]

thanks Kuantum. Since you've been through this, I was wondering if the UBC MD program has any particular resources that they have gathered to help students find research? (perhaps important contacts or links to research opportunities)

 

There are often e-mails about research opportunities.

 

http://www.med.ubc.ca/research/st_postdocs/st_dfo/ssrp.htm (check this link periodically)

 

Contact faculty you are interested in working with and set something up on your own.

[1234]

if you are doing an MD/PhD because you want to get into ortho, thats way overkill. If you are interested in the PhD - which is not a small task to accomplish - then go for it.

[Spacko]

I would also keep in mind that many traditionalists don't put much weight in the quality of research training you get in the combined MD/PhD program, as the training is almost more of a long MSc than a proper PhD degree. Most schools are designed to get the MD student in and out of the lab setting in about 3 years which is far below the more common 4-6 years that people would normally spend in the lab for a PhD. If you're really interested in being a Clincian Scientist down the road, prepare to do 1-2 yr fellowship after your MD or MD/PhD training to get the research training you'll need to run your own research program at a University.

[peachy]

I would also keep in mind that many traditionalists don't put much weight in the quality of research training you get in the combined MD/PhD program, as the training is almost more of a long MSc than a proper PhD degree. Most schools are designed to get the MD student in and out of the lab setting in about 3 years which is far below the more common 4-6 years that people would normally spend in the lab for a PhD.

This is highly program specific. At U of T, you do a full PhD that is exactly the same as non MD/PhD graduate students, with full research training. Don't do MD/PhD for the purpose of improving your CARMS application -- it's way too much time and effort for that.

[djmackj]

thanks guys on all your feedback. From your personal experiences, was it difficult to find research (non-PhD) in the CaRMS specialty of your interest? I remember back in undergrad each professor would receive dozens of emails from interested students and would select one based on undergraduate grades and experience and interview. Is the process similar for finding research in med school? If I wanted to do research in orthopedics summer 2010, how early should I start looking for a supervisor?

[Spacko]

I'd say sooner the better. Even if a researcher isn't ready to take on a student when you contact them, at least you can get those feelers out and then they'll be familiar with your name/background if you contact them again in another six months. Or, perhaps they can forward you onto someone else who they think you would be a good fit with.

[boodog]

do it soon, some of the best researchers already get students coming back from past years, etc. so it is never too early

[djmackj]

I see, I guess I'll start sending out some emails in the coming weeks. Thanks!