Mei_Mei_girl Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 To Jordan: I have long been interested in Natural Medicine as well, but am soon to enter medical school. From my experiences in talking to a diverse range of people, many people like "natural" options and feel that at times conventional medicine is "over-prescribed." I think for a large part this is because physicians know a certain prescription works and thus prescribe it. They are familiar with it. There seems to be less certaintly about some natural medicines so obviously how can one prescribe it? Certain things, like traditional Aboriginal medicines, or traditional Chinese medicines, are in fact very important to some people. I am aiming to go into medicine with an open attitude and do what I can to best assist my patients. But I would not feel comfortable recommending something I do not know about. I am considering possibly taking some natural medicine courses down the road to be able to answer patients' questions and help accomodate what is best for them and their beleif systems. It seems that alot of effective care comes down to treating patients with respect and not disregarding their views on certain nature methods. But...I'm still learning, and will continue learning. Best of luck to you in what you choose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan88 Posted July 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Finally someone who doesn't go on the attack just because someone considers an alternative. What you are doing is my main consideration also. My interests lie in general health and preventative care. However, finding a position as a doctor where this can be my focus is difficult because most people only go to a doctor when a problem has already started / a GP is paid per patient making it difficult to spend extended time with a patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame219 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 To Jordan: I have long been interested in Natural Medicine as well, but am soon to enter medical school. From my experiences in talking to a diverse range of people, many people like "natural" options and feel that at times conventional medicine is "over-prescribed." I think for a large part this is because physicians know a certain prescription works and thus prescribe it. They are familiar with it. There seems to be less certaintly about some natural medicines so obviously how can one prescribe it? Certain things, like traditional Aboriginal medicines, or traditional Chinese medicines, are in fact very important to some people. I am aiming to go into medicine with an open attitude and do what I can to best assist my patients. But I would not feel comfortable recommending something I do not know about. I am considering possibly taking some natural medicine courses down the road to be able to answer patients' questions and help accomodate what is best for them and their beleif systems. It seems that alot of effective care comes down to treating patients with respect and not disregarding their views on certain nature methods. But...I'm still learning, and will continue learning. Best of luck to you in what you choose! +1 here. I know for a fact that in Hong Kong, the faculty of medicine and science in the University of Hong Kong are collaborating to investigate the effect of Traditional Chinese Medicines (TCMs) on the body. A lot of MBBS practitioners are also additionally trained in traditional Chinese medicine in an attempt to make use of some of their therapeutic effects as an alternative to trad-allopathic medicine. While I'm hesitant to say that TCMs should be used alongside drugs without knowing full-scale effects, there ARE studies showing statistically proven results and extracting essential ingredients based on herbals from TCMs. I think it's a good option to explore them WITH the basis of an allopathic approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Finally someone who doesn't go on the attack just because someone considers an alternative. What you are doing is my main consideration also. My interests lie in general health and preventative care. However, finding a position as a doctor where this can be my focus is difficult because most people only go to a doctor when a problem has already started / a GP is paid per patient making it difficult to spend extended time with a patient. You have to realize a lot of people on this forum fit the typical med school student attitude. Their years of undergraduate knowledge and desire to go to med school put their head so far up their @ss that not only can they see their spinal cord but they actually think they're a doctor and have an MD after their name. Do what you love and what interests you and don't let anybody stop you. I myself avoid taking OTC meds unless I feel it absolutely necessary, and like you mentioned, an active healthy lifestyle from an early age can help prevent common problems that may occur later down the road. You obviously cannot fix everything without medication. What you eat only affects 10% of your cholesterol level; 90% of it is genetic. Just think about it. You obviously have some passion for this field. I'd suggest doing a bit more research and going from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 kid. you only just decided to go down the career path of a naturopathic doctor. Don't prematurely come on an internet forum by telling us about your life and your opinions. No one cares. You'd make a great doctor:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 You have to realize a lot of people on this forum fit the typical med school student attitude. Their years of undergraduate knowledge and desire to go to med school put their head so far up their @ss that not only can they see their spinal cord but they actually think they're a doctor and have an MD after their name. Well I am a doctor and I do have an MD after my name and I have major issues with a lot of what naturopathy does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Well I am a doctor and I do have an MD after my name and I have major issues with a lot of what naturopathy does. I agree that there are forms and branches of naturopathic medicine that fall into gray areas. There are a lot of individuals in alternative medicine that frown on taking prescription drugs which is totally just ridiculous. And yes there are people in alternative medicine that believe that taking said herb with said plant extract in hot water is a guaranteed prevention method for colon, breast and prostate cancer. However, I still believe that there is a place for naturopathic medicine as long as those involved don't start making absurd health claims and start recommending bogus herbal supplements as an alternative to traditional medicine. I'm Asian and my relatives/family friends are always very keen on offering me new tea blends using weird mushrooms, dried fruits and various traditional chinese herbs as a prevention for some disease or cancer. I obvious don't believe a word of it, but i'm sure there are some health benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I agree that there are forms and branches of naturopathic medicine that fall into gray areas. There are a lot of individuals in alternative medicine that frown on taking prescription drugs which is totally just ridiculous. And yes there are people in alternative medicine that believe that taking said herb with said plant extract in hot water is a guaranteed prevention method for colon, breast and prostate cancer. However, I still believe that there is a place for naturopathic medicine as long as those involved don't start making absurd health claims and start recommending bogus herbal supplements as an alternative to traditional medicine. Homeopathy, therapies relying on magnets or water, therapeutic touch, and osteopathy are not grey areas but downright quackery. I'm Asian and my relatives/family friends are always very keen on offering me new tea blends using weird mushrooms, dried fruits and various traditional chinese herbs as a prevention for some disease or cancer. I obvious don't believe a word of it, but i'm sure there are some placebo benefits. Fixed for ya. Let's see the RCTs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I still believe that there is a place for naturopathic medicine as long as those involved don't start making absurd health claims and start recommending bogus herbal supplements as an alternative to traditional medicine. Most, if not all, of the evidence for naturopathic medicine is anecdotal or directly related to the placebo effect. If these herbs were proven effective, their active compounds would be purified at a pharmaceutical grade and used in allopathic medicine. The entire field of naturopathic medicine is bogus, absurd, and preys on peoples gullibility in regards to their own health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 The entire field of naturopathic medicine is bogus, absurd, and preys on peoples gullibility in regards to their own health. I am from a Russian background and I know that the best medical specialists in Russia offer patients BOTH conventional AND traditional (ie. natural medical products) advice. Its just an example. Many other countries have the same systems. I think its absurd to discredit ALL natural medicine as bogus. Its dangerous not to have an open mind. For example, now it is known that drinking green tea has many health benefits. If people were always closed to the idea it would never have been explored. Really I suppose this can be debated on and on. The way I'm trying to go into medical school is to learn how to offer people the best possible medical care I can. Even if placebo is involved in some aspects of natural medicine, the way I see it, it would be worth it to respect patients enough to let those benefits come to fruition and not blatently say "No, your desire to take this natural substance is absurd." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I wouldn't have a problem with naturopathic medicine if it stuck to promoting the benefits of diet, exercise, and psychological well-being. But it doesn't, and that's where the problem lies. It wastes peoples money, time, and possibly endangers their health by pushing so-called natural remedies. This isn't a big deal if you have a cold or a muscle ache, but when people are having their physicians recommendations undermined by an ND I just want to slap them for being so gullible. It seems like such a joke to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 You'd make a great doctor:rolleyes: don't be so hard on a rape victim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I wouldn't have a problem with naturopathic medicine if it stuck to promoting the benefits of diet, exercise, and psychological well-being. But it doesn't, and that's where the problem lies. It wastes peoples money, time, and possibly endangers their health by pushing so-called natural remedies. This isn't a big deal if you have a cold or a muscle ache, but when people are having their physicians recommendations undermined by an ND I just want to slap them for being so gullible. It seems like such a joke to me. i dunno about naturopathy in general, but TCM is awesome. i had my hematologist's recommendations undermined by my herbalist..and now i'm great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I am from a Russian background and I know that the best medical specialists in Russia offer patients BOTH conventional AND traditional (ie. natural medical products) advice. Its just an example. News to me, being Russian. Russian medicine is completely Westernized, the only reason why it's not at the forefront of of medical advancements is the lack of govt funding for research, technology, etc. My grandmother, who's out in the country, is a big believer into herbs and what not, but she also attempted to cure the salmonella I got at age 8 by putting a dead man's hat on my face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avenir001 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 but she also attempted to cure the salmonella I got at age 8 by putting a dead man's hat on my face. obviously it worked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame219 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Most, if not all, of the evidence for naturopathic medicine is anecdotal or directly related to the placebo effect. If these herbs were proven effective, their active compounds would be purified at a pharmaceutical grade and used in allopathic medicine. The entire field of naturopathic medicine is bogus, absurd, and preys on peoples gullibility in regards to their own health. Yes, a lot of techniques and approaches used by naturopathic medicine is absurdity through the roof, however it is also very conservative by rejecting ALL aspects of naturopathic medicine as a whole. Since naturopathic medicine is a concoction of various techniques implemented across several branches of alternative medicine (think TCMs, iridology(!), herbs, accupuncture, yoga etc), I disagree that ALL of them should be discounted. Surely, active compounds are being purified by pharmaceutical companies from herbs and a lot of them have been isolated successfully such as tamiflu from star anise. But a lot of this is ongoing research, and there are simply many more things that allopathic medicine just won't cover. Point is, you have to keep an open mind about different things. Naturopaths are laughable because they implement bogus techniques that could endanger public health, not because everything they do is a scam. Herbalists and TCMs on the other hand have several thousand years behind them and I'm sure that by the time science advances it would lead to more verifications than rejections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Naturopaths are laughable because they implement bogus techniques that could endanger public health, not because everything they do is a scam. Herbalists and TCMs on the other hand have several thousand years behind them and I'm sure that by the time science advances it would lead to more verifications than rejections. Sure, some of the herbs or techniques will be proven effective in the future (i.e. accupuncture). That doesn't change the fact that at this point in time there is no scientific basis or rationale to prescribe or treat with most "natural" substances. Making people pay for treatments with no medical indication is ridiculous and extortion under the guise of holistic health. Most people laugh at the infomercial for Extendz ("all-natural" penis enlargement pill). It sounds blatantly ridiculous. Yet, as soon as the treatment effects become intangible and invisible as with most naturopathic medicines, somehow people take it more seriously. Nothing changed, it's not suddenly a valid treatment, but at least we can't see it not working. It just seems dumb to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Note that while acupuncture has been shown to have benefits, it doesn't actually matter where you put the needles, whatever theories about qi and meridians might say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 News to me, being Russian. Russian medicine is completely Westernized, the only reason why it's not at the forefront of of medical advancements is the lack of govt funding for research, technology, etc. My grandmother, who's out in the country, is a big believer into herbs and what not, but she also attempted to cure the salmonella I got at age 8 by putting a dead man's hat on my face. Hahaha...the dead man's hat seems out there...I do agree. Im trying to get at that not ALL natural medicine is whacko, although I do agree some is. PS. culture and tradition likely have to do with why physicians in Russia for example may still prescribe a traditional medicine ....its been used by people for so long it just seems "right' and expected to a doctor's visit...I suppose it also depends on who you talk to and where you go ps...as if your Russian!! thats awsome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flame219 Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 Sure, some of the herbs or techniques will be proven effective in the future (i.e. accupuncture). That doesn't change the fact that at this point in time there is no scientific basis or rationale to prescribe or treat with most "natural" substances. Making people pay for treatments with no medical indication is ridiculous and extortion under the guise of holistic health. Most people laugh at the infomercial for Extendz ("all-natural" penis enlargement pill). It sounds blatantly ridiculous. Yet, as soon as the treatment effects become intangible and invisible as with most naturopathic medicines, somehow people take it more seriously. Nothing changed, it's not suddenly a valid treatment, but at least we can't see it not working. It just seems dumb to me. Hm, yes, and I don't know if we're on the same page, but I was pointing out that we should treat alternative treatments with an open mind instead of dismissal until further evidence. It's bad for good patient communications too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewB Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I think treating everything with an open mind gets tiresome when there is no tangible reason to. I recall the Cochrane Collaboration report on naturopathy concluded it was no better than placebo. Just because somebody desires naturopathy doesn't change the fact that it is unproven, potentially unsafe, and at best a waste of money in a lot of circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prothrombin Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I wouldn't have a problem with naturopathic medicine if it stuck to promoting the benefits of diet, exercise, and psychological well-being. But it doesn't, and that's where the problem lies. It wastes peoples money, time, and possibly endangers their health by pushing so-called natural remedies. This isn't a big deal if you have a cold or a muscle ache, but when people are having their physicians recommendations undermined by an ND I just want to slap them for being so gullible. It seems like such a joke to me. I completely agree with you. Like I said though, i think that there is a place for Naturopathic Medicine as long as, like you mentioned, they focused on promoting active and healthy diets and encouraged people to consume healthier foods (but that's what a dietitian is for). There needs to be a clear line between what an ND should and should not do. Like you said, an ND should NOT be contradicting or providing misleading or otherwise dangerous advice to someone that has already or not yet been seen by an MD. If ND's can stick to complementing the advice of an MD rather than contradicting and comparing the advice of an MD then I see no problem with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I completely agree with you. Like I said though, i think that there is a place for Naturopathic Medicine as long as, like you mentioned, they focused on promoting active and healthy diets and encouraged people to consume healthier foods (but that's what a dietitian is for). There needs to be a clear line between what an ND should and should not do. Like you said, an ND should NOT be contradicting or providing misleading or otherwise dangerous advice to someone that has already or not yet been seen by an MD. If ND's can stick to complementing the advice of an MD rather than contradicting and comparing the advice of an MD then I see no problem with them. Or maybe people could just go to dieticians or read the Canada Food Guide online for free. It's not as if information about healthy diet and exercise is not readily available for free from public health. Why pay a crackpot naturopath for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 It would be interesting to have a trained Naturopathic doctor join this discussion, hahaha. I'm sure they would have a mouthful to say on their perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebouque Posted July 15, 2009 Report Share Posted July 15, 2009 I don't think nathuropathy works, but then lot's of allopathy doesnt really work and relies heavily on placebo as well so.. Whatever field stimulates you OP, it's really up to you. I would' ve hated to be an nd. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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