Advice - 27 years, Comp Engg graduate, been working for 4 years

[softieToMed]

Hi folks!

 

I did my undergrad in computer Engineering (2005) and have been working since then in Seattle. I am thinking about going to medical school (I come back to this every few months). I will never get the satisfaction I need from staying in Engineering, so I am realizing that I should take the itch seriously.

 

I plan to start seriously volunteering to validate before making any serious decisions. However, I was wondering if this forum had any particular advice for my situation. My undergrad GPA is between 3.5 and 3.6 with some extra curriculars, but I have no research experience whatsoever. I also have no Bio/Chem pre-reqs but probably have the physics/math/humanities.

 

If I decide to make the jump, it would be to pursue clinical + research/policy.

 

Should I do another degree (masters + thesis)? Or just the two years of coursework? How bad does the non-research experience look? I could probably get decent letters of recommendation from Sr engineers at work, but I bet they don't count for much in academia.

 

What are good schools for pursuing research/policy on top of clinical? (other than UofT).

 

By the time I can start medical school, I will be 30. Any outright reality checks are welcome

 

Prior to moving to Seattle, I was an Ontario resident. Does this limit me to Ontario med schools? (which also seem to be the most competitive)

 

Thanks in advance! great forum!

[JTG]

Hi,

 

I don't see any issues with you pursueing medicine if that is what you want to do.

 

To be safe though, I would definitely start volunteering somewhere that gives you some clinical exposure before giving up your job / moving / starting school again. Who knows maybe you would be happy to continue in your current career, but enjoy volunteering doing something different in your free time.

 

Your age is not much of an issue, in the grand scheme of things you are not very old. I am turning 32 and starting first year medicine at U of Ottawa this fall, and am not particularly concerned about it. There are many many years left to work....its important to find something you enjoy doing...

 

I am not going to pretend to be an expert on all the various admission rules, each school is different, so you will need to look each one of them up. As a mature student I would think that going back and doing a Masters (Biomedical engineering?) and taking the remaining prerequisite courses you need on the side would be the most interesting route. I am not sure how the med schools would count these marks though. I know a lot of schools only count marks from terms in which you take a full course load.....I would definitely figure this out before deciding.

 

Good luck.

[Spacko]

Hey softie,

 

I can empathize with your situation as it's got some similarities to my own. I took a six year break between my undergrad and eventually getting accepted to medicine (class of 2013), I'm currently 30 myself.

 

Medicine was always what I wanted to do since I was young, but after getting rejected after undergrad, not having much more than an 80% avg, I pursued graduate school and found myself starting to 'look for reasons' as to why Medicine probably wasn't for me anyways. 'I'm too old, I'll probably never be accepted anyways, The work is probably too time consuming for a happy life, It'll be hard on my family anyways..." In any event, I finally realized that I was just trying to make the best of something I was unsuccessful at, and that's not what I wanted my mental legacy to be when I was older.

 

So I got back on my horse, completed 3 additional pre-reqs I had never taken (O-chem), studied and wrote the MCAT twice, stepped up my volunteer efforts to a higher level... and about two years later I'm ready to enter Medicine!

 

If you're really serious about it, and you put in the effort to get yourself prepared (given where you are in life), I think that counts for something and will likely be recognized by the admissions committees. It takes some preparation though, so work through what you need to do and see if you're still willing to make the sacrifices after a year or two.

 

With regards to your questions about courses, I would look into the possibilities of doing a graduate degree (e.g. an MSc) and see if you can take the pre-req courses while in the grad program. During my PhD studies I completed my required chem classes at no extra cost (most schools require a set tuition regardless) while completing my research. ...At least you'd get a higher level degree and some research experience in addition to your required courses.

 

UBC has a school of public health that may hold some interest for you and you wouldn't have to be too far from Seattle (assuming you have some ties there).

 

Oh, and I'm not certain about residential status, but my guess is that you'd currently be listed as an Ontario resident (so you'd only be 'in-province' for Ontario schools). However, if you did your coursework/grad degree in another province, you'd likely have the choice of whether you wished to remain an Ontario resident, or you could choose to be classified as a resident of X province. You have to choose one the other as your 'home' province in the end. No double dipping!

 

Good luck and keep us posted on your decisions!

 

PS. I think Seattle is a great city.

[Rayven]

My undergrad GPA is between 3.5 and 3.6 with some extra curriculars, but I have no research experience whatsoever. I also have no Bio/Chem pre-reqs but probably have the physics/math/humanities.

You'll need to bump up your GPA to at least a 3.7 (80%) to be considered competitive. Also I'm wondering about your course load per year.

 

Regarding pre-reqs, some schools don't require them but that'd severely limit your choices.

 

Should I do another degree (masters + thesis)? Or just the two years of coursework? How bad does the non-research experience look? I could probably get decent letters of recommendation from Sr engineers at work, but I bet they don't count for much in academia.

A masters degree usually doesn't help much at most schools. However it does carry some weight at UofT if you manage to turn out a lot of publications. I forget which med school it was but one or two of them will add 0.1 or 0.2 to your cGPA if you finish a Masters.

 

Also note that if you start a new degree then some schools like Western will require that you finish that degree before you can apply.

 

Having done no research isn't a terrible thing. You should only pursue research if that's what you're interested in. A lot of students get into med school without ever doing gaining any research experience.

 

LORs from work are good. I think most people usually get a LOR from work, a LOR from a doctor or prof/supervisor, and a LOR from their volunteer coordinator.

 

By the time I can start medical school, I will be 30. Any outright reality checks are welcome

I'm going to say to you what someone said to me before..

 

One day, you'll be 30 anyways. Would you rather be 30 and doing what you are now or would you rather be doing something else?

 

Prior to moving to Seattle, I was an Ontario resident. Does this limit me to Ontario med schools? (which also seem to be the most competitive)

 

Thanks in advance! great forum!

It doesn't limit you to Ontario med schools however it you gain pretty much no In Province (IP) advantages. The only school that I know of that will give you a 0.05 GPA advantage for being an Ontario resident is Ottawa.

 

If you do move back to Canada and you can afford it... I'd highly recommend going to either do a new undergrad or just additional years at a university outside of Ontario. I think to establish residency you just need to be living/going to school in a province for 2 years.

 

Anyways, hope that helps.

[Satsuma]

Agreed with previous post...a grad degree will do little for you if what you need is to raise your GPA.

 

You could do grad school and take the undergrad prereq courses at the same time (you will likely need permission from your supervisor to take those courses since they won`t be directly related to your project). But why? Research isn`t necessary to gain admission to med school, you will signing up for at least 2 years of school and you could prob just do your prereqs faster on their own, you will take a large paycut for these 2+ years even if you get really solid funding...so why not just keep working as an engineer, even just part time and take the prereqs.

[Dampy]

You should check if you overloaded during your eng degree (i.e. more than 5 full credits per year)....I'm guessing you did (if you finished it in 4 years), in which case you probably have at least one year above 3.75 according to westerns weighting scheme.

 

If you bust your butt like starting today and write a late summer early fall mcat you could potentially make it in for this cycle.

[softieToMed]

Regarding GPA/Courseload:

Hm, I have an 80+ across all my years, but when I use the conversion scales (I went to Waterloo which gives out percentages) converting each course's percentage to GPA, I end up with something between 3.5 and 3.6. I think 3.7 is 85% and above which I have in my last few terms but not consistently (I have a stats course that is positively a blight (68%)). I have a full or in some terms higher courseload, so I should be okay there.

 

But your point of bumping it to 3.7 still stands. The question then is how..

 

Part time coursework wouldn't count towards bumping GPA, just meeting the pre-reqs right?

 

It would be interesting to be combine the pre-req coursework and some research for a prof under full courseload. That would give me the immersion, hopefully GPA bump and an LOR. (and some credibility). Thoughts?

 

A complete graduate degree might get distracting in itself.. especially if it is engineering again.

 

Doing it at UBC would also be interesting because I could potentially keep working part time for my current employer.

 

(a little aggressive maybe)

So Year 1: Immersion in volunteer/validation

Year 2: full time Coursework + research (+ volunteer)

Year 3: MCAT & Application + (work? courses? volunteer? )

Year 4: hopefully acceptance or.. (here a graduate degree program would be more useful)

[Dampy]

it seems like a well thought out plan.

 

but just an FYI, you only need one year above 3.75 (last years cutoffs) to get a provisional interview at western, as long as your mcat holds up, your marks aren't that bad so i'm thinking one of those years where did more than 5 courses could count for that. Sorry should mention, because western only counts best 5 courses towards GPA.

 

Also u of t will remove your 4 worst courses.

[Rayven]

Keep in mind that most schools use special weighting formulas. UofT for example allows you to drop your lowest mark for each full-time year which I'm guessing would do wonders for that 68% stat course.

 

Also, I don't think you need to take an entire your year out for each step. You could start school and volunteering at the same time. If you plan to keep working then just cut back on some of the volunteering hours.

 

The MCAT can also be written multiple times with virtually no consequence here in Canada (different story in the USA). No need to take an entire year off just for the MCAT. I'd suggest you buy some MCAT books (Exam Krackers for example) and study up for the MCAT now in your free time.. especially since it's a good way to get ready to take those science pre-reqs anyways. The EK MCAT books are about 150 pages per subject. It'd take maybe a week to go through a subject if you go slowly or just a 2-3 days if you're just straight out flipping through it.

 

Year 1: Courses + Volunteer + Work + MCAT

Year 2: Volunteer + Work + MCAT (repeat if necessary) + Another year of undergrad if you need it

[softieToMed]

I bought Exam Krackers - it has a fair number of typos that makes me distrust it. Can anyone recommend textbooks for Level 1/2 Bio/Chem? I think that would be a good accompaniment to Exam Krackers/Kaplans.

 

I guess I should recalculate my GPA - it's been a while since I went through that exercise and the rules may have changed.

 

Thanks for all the feedback!

[NotYet]

Hi,

 

I was in the same position you're in right now 3 years ago: working as an engineer, but wanting to do more. The first thing I suggest you do is look at all the Ontario med schools, and see what their requirements are in terms of GPA. Then, calculate your GPA for each school - since each school has different methods of calculating, your GPA will be different for each school. Also, remember, that if you were in co-op, some schools, such as Ottawa, will not take those years during which you had co-op terms into account. If you're like most engineers I know, your later years are your better ones, but if you've done co-op, that takes you out of the running for Ottawa. Queens is pretty good in that it takes your last two years when calculating GPA, so if they were good, you can make their cut-off. Western is even better, since they take your two best years (but you must have been full-time during those years).

Depending on your GPA results, you can then make further plans, but remember that the most important thing is to get past that GPA cut-off. I ended up going back to school, and did three years of a second undergrad before I got into med school. For me, it made the most sense. PM me if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

[softieToMed]

Hm, I went to Waterloo so my entire undergrad was with Co-op but each study term was full time with a full or higher courseload. That takes me out of the running for entire programs? That seems... wrong. Waterloo Engineering non-co-op is not even an option.

 

I will look into each program GPA cut-off.

[Halcyon]

Hm, I went to Waterloo so my entire undergrad was with Co-op but each study term was full time with a full or higher courseload. That takes me out of the running for entire programs? That seems... wrong. Waterloo Engineering non-co-op is not even an option.

 

I will look into each program GPA cut-off.

 

Many schools make allowances for co-op programs. Read through their websites and/ or email them directly.

 

[Halcyon]

I'm going to say to you what someone said to me before..

One day, you'll be 30 anyways. Would you rather be 30 and doing what you are now or would you rather be doing something else?

 

Awesome.

 

Many of us non-trad, older pre-meds struggle with this at one time or another. As for a reality check, since you define your own reality, only you can answer that one

 

In my personal experience, some of pressures of applying to medical school as an older student come from external expectations (not to mention all that fun stuff of working, paying a mortgage, etc). For example: Why are you still in school at XYZ age? Haven’t you been in school long enough? How come you aren’t married and have kids yet? (aka older generation interpretation of “what’s wrong with you?). Why would you even want to be a physician? How are you going to have a family and be a doctor? Aren’t men going to find you a bit intimidating? Oh, the list goes on and on...

 

The trick is not to let such questions / comments bother you and understand everyone speaks from their own frame of reference (and their intentions are harmless). Surround yourself with people who “get it” and who are supportive of your ambitions.

 

May all your dreams come true!

Haly

[JTG]

I did co-op at U of Guelph. When Ottawa calculates your GPA they only include years in which you did courses 2 out of the 3 possible academic terms in a given year. For me, this meant I lost one of my academic terms during a year that I was working for 2/3 terms. This term happened to be my best academically (of course).....but it is still possible to apply. If all your terms are pretty much even in terms of GPA, this won't even affect you....

 

If you take prerequisites during one of the terms that gets disqualified in terms of GPA calculation, they still count it as having the prerequisition completed though.

 

Good luck :>

[cary_fan]

Hm, I went to Waterloo so my entire undergrad was with Co-op but each study term was full time with a full or higher courseload. That takes me out of the running for entire programs? That seems... wrong. Waterloo Engineering non-co-op is not even an option.

 

I will look into each program GPA cut-off.

 

Hi softieToMed,

 

I went through something similar. I graduated from UW the same year as you in SYDE (maybe you know who I am), and managed to get through this process. I remember entering my marks as they occurred during the Calendar year, not the Sept-Aug year that everyone else uses. And I also specifically remember Queen's sending me a revised schedule where they rejuggled everything. So you can try to do it in the way that makes the most sense for you, and if that doesn't work for some schools, they might re-order them to make sense for them.

 

I remember talking to the admissions folks at the UT Med office, and they said that they do take that into account. It might be helpful to mention the calendar/academic year as a note or comment on your application (if I recall, you get a small # of words to do this on the overall application).

 

You didn't come outright and say what province you were applying for. I found Ontario generally more forgiving for course pre-reqs; most other provinces were quite strict with requiring courses (english credits, bio/chem/orgo), though this is from I remember when I applied (2006). Similarly, in every province other than Ontario, the vast majority of spots are reserved for students in-province. Even within Ontario, at some schools there are spots for students in the local region (ie. at Western, students applying from the SWOMEN area have lower MCAT cutoffs). Still, most of the Ontario schools do not discriminate against students from other provinces, so (for example) BC residents have just as good of a chance of getting in here.

 

My personal opinion is that doing a graduate degree just to get into medicine isn't that helpful. There are only a handful of schools that give any special consideration to graduate students, and most of the time, GPA requirements only include courses taken during undergraduate studies. That having been said, I did benefit from applying to a school that DID treat grad students differently (Queen's). My GPA was in the same range as yours (cumulative 3.54 or so, last two years was 3.65) and I had a large number of extracurriculars. My MCAT was decent enough to meet requirements of most schools.

 

If you're not picky about where you go to medical school, you should cast as wide a net as possible. That may mean upgrading your undergraduate GPA, or taking a few courses to satisfy pre-reqs at as many schools as possible. A good MCAT score is also important to get you past this basic hurdle.

 

The volunteer work aspect of it is important from the perspective of truly committing to a service-based career. However, I wouldn't go out there and start volunteering in old-age homes just to pad the CV. Target your experiences in areas that you are already passionate about (eg. mentoring kids, running science camps, etc). Something medical related will help to inform you about what medicine is like in the north american setting (and how it is not at all as it appears on television).

 

It's not an easy path, and there's a lot to think about. Everyone has their own way of doing it, and I am sure you've gotten a lot of different advice on these forums. If you have any other specific questions, go ahead and PM me. I've posted on this subject a number of times, so look for them if you're interested.

 

Cary

[beebee]

Regarding GPA/Courseload:

Hm, I have an 80+ across all my years, but when I use the conversion scales (I went to Waterloo which gives out percentages) converting each course's percentage to GPA, I end up with something between 3.5 and 3.6. I think 3.7 is 85% and above which I have in my last few terms but not consistently (I have a stats course that is positively a blight (68%)). I have a full or in some terms higher courseload, so I should be okay there.

 

I am sorry to turn this thread towards my problems, but how do you get a 3.5 with an 80+??? My ug GPA is 83, and using the omsas gpa table I get 3.16....I hope I don't burst your bubble but instead realize I was wrong and actually stand a chance at medicine in the near future...

[Halcyon]

I am sorry to turn this thread towards my problems, but how do you get a 3.5 with an 80+??? My ug GPA is 83, and using the omsas gpa table I get 3.16....I hope I don't burst your bubble but instead realize I was wrong and actually stand a chance at medicine in the near future...

 

beebee,

 

Check out the sticky on OMSAS GPA conversions or view the scale on the OMSAS website.

 

Your OMSAS GPA going to depend on your grades range and what school you went to.

 

Good luck!

[Halcyon]

Hi softieToMed,

 

I went through something similar. I graduated from UW the same year as you in SYDE (maybe you know who I am), and managed to get through this process. I remember entering my marks as they occurred during the Calendar year, not the Sept-Aug year that everyone else uses. And I also specifically remember Queen's sending me a revised schedule where they rejuggled everything. So you can try to do it in the way that makes the most sense for you, and if that doesn't work for some schools, they might re-order them to make sense for them.

 

I remember talking to the admissions folks at the UT Med office, and they said that they do take that into account. It might be helpful to mention the calendar/academic year as a note or comment on your application (if I recall, you get a small # of words to do this on the overall application).

 

You didn't come outright and say what province you were applying for. I found Ontario generally more forgiving for course pre-reqs; most other provinces were quite strict with requiring courses (english credits, bio/chem/orgo), though this is from I remember when I applied (2006). Similarly, in every province other than Ontario, the vast majority of spots are reserved for students in-province. Even within Ontario, at some schools there are spots for students in the local region (ie. at Western, students applying from the SWOMEN area have lower MCAT cutoffs). Still, most of the Ontario schools do not discriminate against students from other provinces, so (for example) BC residents have just as good of a chance of getting in here.

 

My personal opinion is that doing a graduate degree just to get into medicine isn't that helpful. There are only a handful of schools that give any special consideration to graduate students, and most of the time, GPA requirements only include courses taken during undergraduate studies. That having been said, I did benefit from applying to a school that DID treat grad students differently (Queen's). My GPA was in the same range as yours (cumulative 3.54 or so, last two years was 3.65) and I had a large number of extracurriculars. My MCAT was decent enough to meet requirements of most schools.

 

If you're not picky about where you go to medical school, you should cast as wide a net as possible. That may mean upgrading your undergraduate GPA, or taking a few courses to satisfy pre-reqs at as many schools as possible. A good MCAT score is also important to get you past this basic hurdle.

 

The volunteer work aspect of it is important from the perspective of truly committing to a service-based career. However, I wouldn't go out there and start volunteering in old-age homes just to pad the CV. Target your experiences in areas that you are already passionate about (eg. mentoring kids, running science camps, etc). Something medical related will help to inform you about what medicine is like in the north american setting (and how it is not at all as it appears on television).

 

It's not an easy path, and there's a lot to think about. Everyone has their own way of doing it, and I am sure you've gotten a lot of different advice on these forums. If you have any other specific questions, go ahead and PM me. I've posted on this subject a number of times, so look for them if you're interested.

 

Cary

 

Great post, Cary.

 

Congrats on your successful journey to and now through med school!

 

Best wishes,

 

Haly

[rmorelan]

I am sorry to turn this thread towards my problems, but how do you get a 3.5 with an 80+??? My ug GPA is 83, and using the omsas gpa table I get 3.16....I hope I don't burst your bubble but instead realize I was wrong and actually stand a chance at medicine in the near future...

 

Yeah you can never directly compare uGPA and your average. It can range WILDLY based on your grades, ie

 

(two 85%) =85% but 3.9 GPA

(on 80 and one 90) = 85% but 3.85 GPA

(one 95, one 75) =85% but 3.5 GPA

(one 100, one 70) =85% but 3.35 GPA

 

Anyway just a two course example to get the point across

[beebee]

Thank you Halcyon and rmorelan for clarification.

 

So my few 98's are really messed by my few 74's eh? Darn!

(as the faces of few profs instantly come to mind and I try reeeaallll hard not to get upset...)

 

Well, I guess CONSISTENTLY high marks is the key for my next undergrad!

 

THANKS ONCE AGAIN!!!

[Halcyon]

Thank you Halcyon and rmorelan for clarification.

 

So my few 98's are really messed by my few 74's eh? Darn!

(as the faces of few profs instantly come to mind and I try reeeaallll hard not to get upset...)

 

Well, I guess CONSISTENTLY high marks is the key for my next undergrad!

 

THANKS ONCE AGAIN!!!

 

Sadly, once you get over 90, it really doesn't matter as you've got your 4.0 (depending on your school's OMSAS scale, of course).

 

All the 84s and 89s on my transcript are the death of my OMSAS GPA, hehe!

 

Moving forward, aim for stars and keep the OMSAS conversion scale in your mind. It's good to have this information now. I wish I would have started this pre-med journey with such knowledge in mind.

 

Good luck!

 

Haly

[rmorelan]

Thank you Halcyon and rmorelan for clarification.

 

So my few 98's are really messed by my few 74's eh? Darn!

(as the faces of few profs instantly come to mind and I try reeeaallll hard not to get upset...)

 

Well, I guess CONSISTENTLY high marks is the key for my next undergrad!

 

THANKS ONCE AGAIN!!!

 

Absolutely! Try to aim for 85% or higher in EVERY class. Sounds like you already have a professional background ( hurray, fellow computer person ) so you can chose an degree knowing you have a fall back I suppose already!

 

The GPA system catches a lot of people by suprise. It is not intutive really.

[med_eng]

Hello

 

Not to digress a bit from the topic, but i'm finding myself in a similar situation. I also completed an undergraduate engineering degree and close to finishing my master's degree in the same discipline. I've been trying to apply for med, but this year only managed to get mediochre mcat scores. My overall avg is 3.6 and my last 2 years are around 3.8. I have 1 journal publication, 2 submitted, and about 6 published abstracts. Regarding the mcat, I just wrote this year in May and met the cutoff in all sections except VR in which i got a 6! I wrote back in 2006 and managed to get a 10 in VR, but less satisfactory marks in the other sections. Do I have a shot at any schools, or should I take a chance to rewrite next week although there's a high probability that i may do worse?

 

Is it also true that the number of times the mcat is written doesn't matter for Canadian schools? I know before there was a '3 time limit'. It's just that i already wrote 3 times in the last 3 years...

 

I included the quote below because cary_fan said that s/he had decent mcat marks to get in...if you don't mind me asking, i'm assuming that was a 10 in each section?

 

Thanks.

 

 

My personal opinion is that doing a graduate degree just to get into medicine isn't that helpful. There are only a handful of schools that give any special consideration to graduate students, and most of the time, GPA requirements only include courses taken during undergraduate studies. That having been said, I did benefit from applying to a school that DID treat grad students differently (Queen's). My GPA was in the same range as yours (cumulative 3.54 or so, last two years was 3.65) and I had a large number of extracurriculars. My MCAT was decent enough to meet requirements of most schools.

 

Cary

[Halcyon]

Hello

 

Not to digress a bit from the topic, but i'm finding myself in a similar situation. I also completed an undergraduate engineering degree and close to finishing my master's degree in the same discipline. I've been trying to apply for med, but this year only managed to get mediochre mcat scores. My overall avg is 3.6 and my last 2 years are around 3.8. I have 1 journal publication, 2 submitted, and about 6 published abstracts. Regarding the mcat, I just wrote this year in May and met the cutoff in all sections except VR in which i got a 6! I wrote back in 2006 and managed to get a 10 in VR, but less satisfactory marks in the other sections. Do I have a shot at any schools, or should I take a chance to rewrite next week although there's a high probability that i may do worse?

 

Is it also true that the number of times the mcat is written doesn't matter for Canadian schools? I know before there was a '3 time limit'. It's just that i already wrote 3 times in the last 3 years...

 

I included the quote below because cary_fan said that s/he had decent mcat marks to get in...if you don't mind me asking, i'm assuming that was a 10 in each section?

 

Thanks.

 

Have you checked out the MCAT sub-forum? Do a search on there for VR strategies.

 

You are certainly not alone when it comes to the VR; it seems to be a dreaded section for many pre-meds.

 

Good luck!