Thoughts on the Equality of University Education

[Guest Champ]

Dear All,

 

This seems to be a recurring question by some applicants that had they not done their undergrad at U of Toronto, they may have gotten better grades and hence an improved chance of getting into Meds. I think the problem in prior discussions is that the two opposing groups are polarised. One side feels that UT is harder than all other Univerisities while others feel that all Canadian Universities are the same. I think the answer lies somewhere in between. For simplicity, one can examine this argument on the basis of academic and non-academic grounds.

 

ACADEMCIALLY: Assuming that the curriculum, marking structure and quality of teaching may be indentical among all universities in Canada (which is not proven), I think the differences lie in the faculty expectations. For example (before on-line journal publishing), a bio-science student from a smaller univeristy (eg Nippissing, Brock) writing an essay would not be expected to have the same number /quality of sources (variety of references) as someone from a larger insitution where the library infrastructure is more established. In this way...theorhetically, a student from a larger univeristy with a larger library resource base may have higher expectations placed on them and it may be ultimately harder to getter higher grades.

 

 

NON_ACADEMICALLY: At a more personal level, one cannot forget that success at the universty level is also governed by how well they adapt to the new environment. In my case (and likely many others!), very bright students come to UT and do poorly simply because they have difficulties adjusting to the new life of large classes, higher workload, impersonal teaching and in my case living on my own. Therefore, a student at UT may do poorly relative to other Canadian Universities not becasue the UT is more difficult, but rather because they are unable to cope intitially with the rigors of univeristy education in a big city!

 

CONSPIRACY THEORY: One final thought. It is well established that UT has one of the best research programs in Canada and such a program requires perpetual funding to maintain excellence. Having sat in 1st yr bio classes of >1500 students it is clear that not all of your classmates will make it to 4th year. The system as designed simply cannot financially sustain 1500 students going all the way to 4th year. So maybe U of T is actually harder simply because they are trying to weed students out (after taking their tuition fees!) and channel finances to support research.

 

Any thoughts?

[Guest Beaver]

Good Points

 

However one small correction to the conspiracy theory. Internal University funding makes up less than 3% of research monies received in any given year. Most of the tuiton goes towards infastrucure and operating costs of which UofT given its size has lots of. Funding from research in a sense is "merit" based coming from government sponsored grants. These grants are given to research initiatives that show the most promise, so researchers are essentially competing against one another for a fixed sum of money that has been allocated towards research (ie NSERC, SSHRC, MRC) therin lies the horrors of grant proposals (a doctoral student's nightmare making editing changes at midnight the day before the proposal has to be submitted !) Other sources include private sector funding in exchange for ownership of intellectual property etc.

 

So maybe we can tailor your conspiracy theory to say that UofT allows a large entering class of first years in order to generate a solid revenue base to cover fixed operating and expansion costs. In order to control the variable costs the system has a tendancy to "weed" out students from 2nd year on through a systematic way of marking, curving etc. I dont believe this theory but at least now its internally sound

 

the beav

[Guest AniyaSG]

Doesn't OMSAS try to make up for varying school performances by using different scaling for schools with higher/lower average marks? I was under the impression that this was done precisely to avoid discrepancies in marks from school to school. If this is true, OMSAS scaled marks are all comparable and differences in level of difficulty at different Universities are already accounted for.

[Guest Champ]

Beav,

 

Thanks for the clarification. But don't forget seed funding (for new appointments), bridge funding (to cover grant short falls and payment of doctoral Studentships (which is now guaranteed for PhD's in UT without their own funding. All of these additional costs of research are borne by the university.

 

Fair enough that you dont believe the theory, but maybe you can explain why you lose so much of your course payment once you withdraw from a course even within the first few months. If they were not keenly interested in taking as much money as possible, they would do better to amortise the the amount you receive as a refund relative to the amount of the course left. (eg 50% of course left = 50% of payment received.)

 

hmmm..

[Guest cheech10]

Criticiaing the repayment schedule? At least look into it at other schools, UofT's policies here probably aren't any different from the other schools. And as for amortization, don't forget that most of the schools costs are in registration for classes and organization, and that's why you don't get the full amount back.

 

IMO, academically, UofT isn't much harder than any of the other big Ontario schools (UWO, Queen's, etc.). And if students don't like the work environment, well, they should have known that before they applied, especially with all the horror stories that are passed around about UofT. And I don't think that many students drop out of school over the years; I do think their programs change, and some switch to part time, but that the numbers aren't high enough to warrant a conspiracy theory. I don't have any stats on the number that drop out, but if you find any, please post them in support of your theory.

 

(And don't just say that BIO150 has 1200 students and BIO250 has 900. Many more students take BIO250 in the summer than take BIO150 in the summer, and many drop out of the sciences after first year.)

[Guest Champ]

Hello Cheech,

 

I take your point that most of the costs may be associated in registration, but I still do not think that it represents 100% of the costs in the first two months of the course.

 

With respect to my UT being harder, the argument of UT being harder than other large Canadian universities was never an issue. My argument was that on the basis of library resources (more of an issue in the past without online publishing) students from small universitiies would not be EXPECTED to have as in-depth resource-based approach as you would find at larger universities.

 

In terms of evidence of the conspiracy theory..no numbers yet...but some anectodal evidence. In BIO 150 we were told to look left...look right...because by the end of the year one of those seats will be empty..and so they were. Maybe they decided to take it in the summer.

 

 

champ

[Guest cheech10]

Every other university has a similar repayment policy, and you see the same thing even in swimming lessons.

 

Library resources don't really become an issue in science courses. I have had to write 3 scientific papers in my first 3 years (although that would be 4 since BIO250 has split the first writing project now), and I don't think I ever referenced a book or used a library, preferring to do the research over the internet. Almost all of the bio articles you could ever need are online (at PUBMED) and other universities would similarly have access to them. Most papers are written in upper years, and even at the smallest school, the resources are way more numerous than anyone could read. Books also tend to be too old for science papers, so it's the journal access that matters. Also, having books spread out between Gerstein and Earth Sci Libraries can be a pain for tracking things down. So for arts, a good library is a godsend, but for sciences, it's not such a big deal.

 

Anecdotal evidence...blech Take a stats course to see how highly I think of it. But if you insist, I can offer my own. As for BIO150, a lot of students hate that course, and I'm sure many stop coming to lecture because of it. Add in the booklets of readings purcahsed out and some slides on the internet, and some students don't feel the need to be there. That doesn't necessarily mean they did badly. The same thing happens in BIO250. Prof. Tepass is hard to understand, and his lectures are just summaries of the notes we had to buy. Result: attendance in his lectures plummetted once students realized these things. Despite the low attendance, most students find his section easier or comparable in difficulty to Prof. Heath's.

 

Sorry, but after 3 years here, I haven't seen anything to make me believe that other schools would be significantly easier.

[Guest Champ]

Well,

 

I am not sure that swimming lessons are an appropriate comparison, but if you feel that loosing 100% of your funds after 2 months into a full year course is reasonable..then good for you. You are one of those students who is fortunate to enjoy and excel in every course they enroll in first time. Their are others however, who do change mid year, and need the returned finances from dropped courses to pursue their alternate choices. Adjusting to the UT environment is not exactly an easy task especially if living away from home, and perhaps their are people out their who did not do it as well as you have.

 

With regards to the report writing....and resources.. my references were made to the years PRE_ONLINE publishing. And even despite online publishing I can assure you that the cost of getting online- institutional subscriptions is not markedly lower than print versions. You can ask them. Which ultimately means the the smaller univeristies cannot afford to subscribe to the same amount of journals as the larger ones.

 

An while class sizes plummet for many reasons, I think that you are being slightly optimistic in thinking that all those who enter...ultimately finish.

 

Perhaps 10 years of university education (Canada, England) has made my slightly more cynical and aware of the academic process and that all schools are not created equal.

 

champ

[Guest cheech10]

Complaining about repayment policies won't really help if it's a standard held by other universities as well. I sympathise, but this isn't such a big issue for most people. And anti-calendar survey results can be useful to help avoid classes you dislike.

 

Your point here about libraries is good, but pre-online publishing journal access is not as big a concern today as it was a few years ago. I also feel that the number of journals isn't that good an indicator of access to materials. Sure UofT has a lot of journals, but based on their impact factors, very few people read most of these journals. IMO, the major journals are really important (Cell, Nature, Science, etc), and others are also pretty important (PNAS, Am J of Pathology, others) but many of the smaller ones are of limited use to undergraduates.

 

I didn't say all the students finished; that would be stupid. But many do finish, and I haven't seen any evidence that UofT's drop rate is much higher than other big Ontario schools.

 

I'm sorry your experiences haven't been wonderful. And I don't believe all universities are created equal, but you do choose your university and can change at any time if you prefer to study elsewhere. UofT's environment is well known among students and if you don't enjoy it there are other schools that may fit you better.

[Guest Champ]

Cheech,

 

Well, hopefully we can debate this one in person at UT medical school this September. Like yourself, I was interviewed on 21 April 2002 (9am morning group).

 

On a separate note...how did you find the interviews?

 

PS. I did my Bachelors (Hum Bio) and Masters (Physiology) at UT downtown.

 

take it easy,

 

champ

[Guest cheech10]

Hopefully we will see each other next year.

 

I found my interview alright, I guess. I was also a 9am interviewee. Pretty straightforward, some role-playing with a patient that wanted to try traditional medicine instead of chemo for colon cancer, ethical scenario about stem cell research, other things. I thought I did well. I've got a few unique EC's, like a national championship in club soccer, which really helped show that I understood leadership, teamwork, and group dynamics. I also did a lot of research into the school, so I really showed my interest. I talked a bit about research (my own in cancer genetics, other research too).

 

The only problem with interviews is that you're being graded relative to others and never know how you did. A solid GPA lets you know where you stand. Not that I think GPA is a better measure, but the objectivity is nice and reassuring. I keep doubting myself after every interview, but hopefully I didn't botch them all.

 

BTW, I am (was? hopefully ) an Immuno specialist at UofT.

 

Good luck with all your applications.

[Guest Beaver]

Hi Champ

 

To answer your question, yes UofT has made a commitment to secure funding for research buffers (ie eliminate the need to wait for the next grant submission cycle) and cover shortfalls for doctoral students. That said, most doctoral students do secure funding and for example the year I had a shortfall, the shortfall was covered through the Doctoral Alumni fund. However if you look at UofT's annual report you will see that grant support and Doctoral payments make up a very small portion of the expense burden that UofT has. Those things are there more to attract good researchers and Doctoral students (ie dangling carrots) which is kind of ironic because the hot researchers and Doctoral students have no problem getting funded through MRC grants etc.

 

As for the drop date stuff, Im not too familiar about the policies there, but even when I was an undergrad I thought those policies were kind of harsh. It may very well be a sort of cash cow for the Unversity to have a 0% refund after the first two months or whatever the case is. I think most universities have these refund rules so I think they are all cashing in on that while the student bears the cost of their late decision. That's a good question to ask the Dean of Arts and Science........just watch him squirm out a bs answer

 

later

the beav

[Guest habraz]

May be I will put my two cents here. I did my undergrad and masters at UofT and I am finishing my PhD here at western. I can say that the competitive culture of UofT was very unsettling and caused a lot of set backs for me. It was for the most part the survival of the fittest. I remember trying to get some TA help for a stats course and after several tries to actually book a time with one of the TA's it was a shock to find that she did not know the answers to my questions. So resources were indeed scarce and expectations were difinitely high (class average was typically 50 to 60). But people did manage A's and it still baffels me. Here on the other hand at western, there is definitely some grade inflation. I TA two fourth year undergraduate courses in pharmacology and the class average is in low 80's. It should however be mentioned that the 15 to 20 students that made the program were chosen from 150 applicants. But when I compare this class's average to my class average (i.e. fourth year pharmacology at UofT) there is at least a 10 point difference where our class average hovered around 70. So yes UofT is more competitive and unfortunately the medical school does not always recognize this fact. Also I should make a disclaimer here, IN MY EXPERIENCE UofT was more competitive and this may not be true for all programs across the board.

[Guest compenger]

A lot can also be said of the programs within universities. For example, try comparing CompEng at Waterloo with your average Arts program. I'm not (necessarily) saying that arts is a walk in the park. But CompEng at Waterloo is probably the toughest undergrad (first entry) program in Canada....and to equate its difficulty with other (lesser) programs is ridiculous.

[Guest Beaver]

Habraz

 

Are you planning to go on to med school? or just figuring things out at this point. Pharmacology is an excellent background to use as a stepping stone for many areas from what I have observed.

 

 

Now does Western have a specific pharmacology undergrad program where there is a limit on the number of students allowed.

 

I have also heard about grade inflation with Ivey, in order to help the grads land plum jobs. This helpsd the school boost up its average grad starting salary numbers and look more competitive vs. UofT and Queens business programs in terms of landing grads into high profile positions. However all of this is unofficial stuff from a friend doing his MBA right now.

[Guest Habraz]

Hey Beaver,

Yes I did apply to four medical schools in Ontario. I got interviewed at ottawa and I am still waiting to hear from UofT but I am not counting on UofT as I failed my verbal (6) and dont think they will consider me. Had I passed my verbal I would have definitely had a shot at an interview I think as my research progress is good and I have had a few publications in clinically relevant scientific journals like critical care medicine and american journal of respiratory and critical care medicine. I think this was the basis of my interview in Ottawa. As for pharmacology I agree with you. As pharmacology is applied physiology, it comes in handy mostly in the pharmeceutical and biotech companies. Some of my freinds are making a handsome living in the US as pharmacologists. To tell you the truth, I did not think about medicine until after my masters. I have participated in a couple of clinical studies with my supervisors who are respirologists and realized that I enjoyed working with patients and that medicine will be a rewarding career for me. However the financial burden and the lost years almost changed my mind. But I applied and I think I will go through with it should I get in. As for MBA at Ivey, this program is world reknowed. I think the wall street journal ranked it 17th best in the world and number 1 as value for tuition money. Kellog business school is comparable to Ivey and charges like 3 times more than Ivey. UofT and York ranked 41 and 42 in the world if I remember correctly last year. So Ivey difinitely has the reputation. But you may be right about the grade inflation. As I recall even Harvard has a grade inflation problem and there was recently an article in the national post where they compared Harvard to UofT and talked about the grade inflation at harvard where the majority of the people get A's. In other words getting into the school is an ardous task but once in chances are you get good grades (either becuase you are likely to be a smart person or becuase there is so much money and resources that you are bound to learn not like UofT where at least one third of the profs did not speak the ENglish language well at least in the early years). I think Ivey business school is a microcosm of Harvard in that getting in is very difficult but once in you are taken care of.

What is your background and were you interviewed at UT already?

[Guest sydesigner]

I agree with compenger, I am in a similar position.

I finished Systems Design Engineering at U Waterloo

and am hiting a wall trying to apply to medicine.

Likewise undergrad enterance into systems design was in the mid 90's, in that class A stood for average. Now

I'm applying with a 3.6 which is laughable for medicine, but was one hell of an accomplishment considering the competition in my class. Even with a MSc from UofT in medical biophysics, piles of research and really good MCATs I can't make headway because of my undergrad GPA. In short, I think the discrepancy between evaluating different academic programs can be even worse than between different institutions. I can't imagine the admissions process evaluating and ranking different programs and institutions (as is done in Ontario highschools for undergrad admissions) - that smacks too much of politics.

[Guest Beaver]

hey Habraz

 

I completed my Phd in Neuropharmacology (UofT) +fellowship and applied to med school this year. Yes I was interviewed by UofT and found them to be fairly receptive towards my background/research etc. As far as what my plans are with the MD, I think I would like to continue on into clinical research and perhaps some work as a clinician, but again that stuff depends largely upon acceptance. Its unfortunate that the Verbal section on the MCAT created a drawback for you because I think you have an excellent background and UofT seems to appreciate the level of work and dedication involved with doctoral studies.

 

Did you go to UofT undergrad? What year did you graduate? I may have graduated with you

 

the beav

[Guest Habraz]

Hi again Beav, that is very interesting. I also did my undergrad and masters at UofT in the department of Pharmacology. Being in neuropharm did you work with Burnham? or perhaps hampson or penefather. I worked with Christine FOrster but now she is gone. You probably know who I am now if you went to school at the same time as me. You are right there is always next year and plus I was interviewed at Ottawa and so the game is not over yet. Although I think your chances of getting in are much better than mine since Uoft is very research oreinted and there are about 480 interviews for almost 200 spots. So I would say you have a pretty good chance. Ottawa is 500 interviews for 111 spots but I am still hopefull. I need to work on the MCAT. I am curious to know who you worked for and whether I know you or not. I TAed at UofT for the past six years with Dr. Riddick as he could not find someone to replace me with so I just kept going back for my TA duties in TOronto!

[Guest Beaver]

Hi Habraz

 

You're right I was supervised by McIntyre Burnham (baldy Burham). At the time our researched largely revolved the Bloor Epilepsy group, ie studies on the the role of neural protectants in the prevention of hypoxic damage.etc. It was a great time and Burnham was a bloody genuis. I think I would like to parlay my background into neurology residency if all goes well. What year did you finish you Bsc? Was it at UofT?

[Guest habraz]

Hi beav. Sorry about that. I finished my BSc. in Tox at uoft in 95 and finished my masters in 97/98 and I am finishing my PHD within the next two months, here at western. The topic of my Phd is acute lung injury secondary to sepsis, and so I guess if I were to go into medicine a residency of interst would be internal medicine and then respirology. However, from the experience of many freinds that have gone into medicine most people come out as GPs specially graduate students since taking on a residency is a very big undertaking. That may well be what I end up doing if I get in. But then again if I trully find that I love a certain feild I may go for it. Incidentally my lab was right across yours at UofT I think 4028 MSB next to goldenbergs and mitchels old lab. I guess you know antonio then. He is a good freind of mine although I have not talked to him for a long time.

what year did you graduate from BSc. Were you in my grad pharm by any chance?

[Guest Beaver]

Hi habraz

 

All this talk is bringing back alot of memories of the old lab

 

I graduated in 96 and went straight into the Phd program. I have a feeling that you will secure a spot at Ottawa given your background!!! As far as timeline, I think an internal medicine residency will only add an extra 2-3 years to your residency so i wouldn't worry about that too much. Given your background, I think your talents would be much better served in a specialty vs family meds which at least from the impression at UofT is good for the "less" intellectually driven folks. Infact thats exactly what the faculty member said to me during the interview when I said I might do family meds.

 

In any case I wish you the best in your persuits

 

Take care

the Beav

[Guest habraz]

it was nice talking to you. I hope you get in and can post the good news. I will post whether i get in or not.

Cheers

habraz

[Guest shkelo]

With a PhD, research work in the summer months will be a breeze. Do you know of any funding opportunities from granting agencies to do research while in medical school? The only one I know of is Heritage funding in Alberta, which allows for part-time fellowships to be awarded to individuals with PhDs going to med school: up to 3 years support and about $20,000/year. These are separate from MD/PhD studentship awards and specifically designed to encourage PhD holders to enter medicine. Only catch though is you must be going to medical school in Alberta. Any equivalent funding opportunities at the provincial or federal level? That's quite a difference from the summer studentship awards for most medical students, which typically pay out $4400-5000.

[Guest Champ]

Hi there,

 

I am not sure of any concurrent research fellowships. The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada had a scheme but it is no longer available. For me, the best bet is to try and secure funding from a prospective supervisor who may have extra cash to fund a part time (1/2 or 1/4 time) research post.....providing you have the time.

 

Champ