Okay, so how do you design a better admissions process?

[Guest ziggurat]

Okay, I figured I'd start a new thread since MAy10-12 was getting busy...

 

I am wondering how people here propose to reform the admission system in a practical manner (consider UofT which has atleast 2000-3000 applicants) if the current system doesn't work (*obviously* it is flawed if Disgruntled failed to get in... wink). I tend to think it generally does work, in so much that the vast majority of my classmates are smart, caring people...

 

I know there are many people in undergrad who got a crap mark in some undergrad subject which tanked their application (perhaps they just don't write th multiple "guess" exams of UofT well... I didn't) and yet would still make a great doctor but I don't know how you identify them without consuming vast (scarce) resources like faculty/student time, and without bringing the whole process to a snail-like pace (if it wasn't slow enough already).

 

I personally would have loved it if they looked at applicants from different schools differently. No offense but I shined in high school, got amazing grades, went to UofT and got caught in the vicious bell curve... I am pretty certain that had I gone to Brock, or Bishop's, or *heaven-for-bid* Western or, York (sorry guys) I could have done substantially better and gotten into med school earlier... I guess the people who go to these schools and want to get into medicine really are smarter (they knew NOT to got to UofT undergrad...). Not that I'd be a substantially better person (although I do console myself by saying that all the punishment I went through was character-building), I'd just have better marks.

 

I personally think introducing the 4yr degree as a minimum qualification was great... I wouldn't mind an age minimum too as one way of trying to help ensure that candidates have had some life experience and, hopefully, some maturity (not a perfect way I know... but can you think of a better way). Interviews are a must too... the only problem is sociopaths tend to do quite well here.

 

Comments, criticisms?

[Guest ThugJaan]

Hey,

 

WHy is the four year thing a good thing? Personally I think that they should lowerit to two yeas like Calgary to let people in sooner and not waste time in undergrad.

[Guest ziggurat]

I view rehashing simple concepts like apoptosis, and basic biochemistry or genetics, etc. in med school as a waste of valuable time which could be better spent gaining a more comprehensive and detailed understanding of various clinically important subjects.

 

These subjects are vital for any skilled physician practicing in the modern world, in that they give you an understanding of the mechanisms of disease and how treatment strategies work. Med school isn't the place to be introduced to them however for the first time. They should be part of the education you come in to medical school with, ie. because you have a four year degree... Undergraduate training is not a waste, it is an investment that makes you a better clinician.

 

I bet you only memorize things if their going to be on an exam right, not if the topic being discussed is *only* an aside that may someday help you care for a patient in the real world. This type of myopic vision of med school typifies the immature student and is something I hope could be minimized, if not altogether eliminated, by mandating students to have a certain basic age and level of training upon admission...

[Guest JD]

"...introducing the 4yr degree as a minimum qualification was great." Since you are talking about it in the past tense, are you saying that this requirement will be taking effect starting with the next application cycle?

[Guest BCgirl]

Doesn't U of T accept non-science majors? I don't think the 4 year degree requirement would help that much with covering basic things in med school unless they make certain courses pre-reqs or say you have to do a bio related degree...

 

I don't think you should make such harsh assumptions about people based on a couple lines on some message board... I don't think ThugJaan's post deserved such a reply.

[Guest coeruleus]

I think ziggurat's problem is with the people applying to med school, based on the way he keeps on assuming that everyone (excluding himself, of course) is an immature mega-keener, who has no life other than trying to get that extra mark on a quiz that's worth 1%... so maybe this thread should be retitled "ways to keep the kinds of people I hate out of med school, which necessitates my merciless trashing of anyone who may be such a person, regardless of whether they are or not." I agree with BCgirl - ziggurat has been way too harsh (and not to mention impolite!) to too many people based only on a few lines of text from which a person's character cannot possibly be judged... and where's that caring and compassion for others that he so highly praises in doctors? By the way, in keeping with the "correctness of spelling/grammar" theme from the May interview thread, it's "they're going to be on the exam", not "their".... you gotta love those homonyms!

 

However, I also do agree with ziggurat that the U of T application is too marks driven (60%!), and keeps out those people who could become wonderful doctors, but didn't do awesome in undergrad. Maybe it would be better if U of T adopted the formula used for Queen's where marks are used only for the cut-off and the rest is based on the interview, essay and reference letters. Personally, I'd also like to see the process streamlined so that everybody finds out when they have their interviews in February, instead of having to wait until several weeks before the acceptance letters come out. I mean, if all the other schools in Ontario can do it, why can't U of T, especially if it's supposed to be the "best" medical school in Canada?

[Guest disgruntled]

Age minimum is a bad idea. Since when does age dictate maturity? I think that everyone would agree that there are 23 yr olds who act like they are 10 and vice versa. Life experiences can be obtained from a very young age, for example: responsibility from a paper route, compassion from a reading buddy program to preschoolers, involved in student government at the jr and high school level etc etc etc. So I dont think ones chronological age would dictate how much experience one would have but rather how involved one is.

 

I personally think the fairest way to assess ones grades is by using a standardized test. All the math whizzes can back me up that standardized tests are pretty accurate at assesing your ability at a particular task. Law school for example uses the LSAT to determine admissions. I know people who suck at standardized test would disagree but it really is the fairest way to assess potential as opposed to grades, since grading schemes vary quite markedly from school to school.

[Guest Mark]

When you complain about maturity and how age dictates maturity, doesn't hard work and focus through four years of undergraduate demonstrate maturity? Maybe thats why U of T relies so heavily on undergrad GPA - It IS a sign of maturity in itself, and if somebody had a shitty GPA than its because they weren't mature enough to prioritize if they really wanted to be a doctor (I mean you know in first year what med schools want, and if, as you ALL said in your essays: 'I've wanted to be a doctor my whole life', then you would've worked harder in undergrad).

 

Thats my take.

 

p.s. ziggurat or whatever, its fine and dandy that you were a whiz kid in highschool but you didn't get crappy undergrad grades because U of T is 'so much harder than every other school'. Thats a load of crap if i've ever seen one and I work in the sewage industry.

If you're so smart, why didn't you just go to Laurier and get that 120% average you 'know you could have gotten'.

[Guest lalala]

One of the things that I have found MOST ANNOYING about the whole med school application process is the fact that different schools let you know whether you are wait-listed/accepted/rejected at different times. I think that there should be a national date for acceptance - meaning that med schools across the country mail out letters on the exact same dates. It's absolutely ridiculous that one has to pay large deposits to schools that they don't even really want to attend in order to ensure a spot in a med school, while waiting to hear back from another school.

 

Additionally, I think that rolling admissions should be abolished as it fosters a sense of hierarchy among those who have gained early acceptance (a lot of ppl think that getting accepted early in the process equates to being a better doctor than someone accepted in August, which is crap).

 

Anyway, those are just my $0.02 worth. I guess what I mentioned above doesn't really apply to Ontario since May 31 is a province wide date and there is no rolling admissions at any Ontario med school, but these are just little annoyances that I have picked up during the application process this year.

[Guest KG06]

So you blame disgruntled for criticizing the U of T admissions process, but it's OK for you to go right ahead and blame U of T for your undergrad grades? Lots of people do extremely well here. I think it's fair to say that you are also partially responsible for where you sit in the bell curve, rather than just how "tough" your university is.

 

Now I don't want to go ahead and claim all universities are the same, but how can you be so sure that going to York or Western would substantially improve your grades? The people I know that have transferred to these schools have not improved their GPA much at all.

[Guest Beaver]

I have TA'd courses (please don't shoot me) at UofT and at Mac so I can tell you that between those two schools as far as human biology courses go(ie Human physiology etc) they are the same in difficulty and marks distribution.

 

Having said that, perhaps a competitive environment may make it more difficult to do well and focus. If you are in a supportive environment where the other students are more inclined to help each other and encourage better achievements from everyone it makes a big difference.

 

I found generally (again this is not every single student but my overall impression) the students (undergrad) to be fairly aggressive and marks hungry at UofT (kinda felt like kill or be killed). I was yelled at in my office several times, spit on once , and sworn at about half a dozen times. I never faced any of that during my year at Mac. The students readily formed study groups and were really into using each other as a resource rather than as the "enemy"

 

Of course not everyone is UofT is that competitive but as an instructor I got a chance to witness some eye opening moments. Maybe the behavior towards me was a function of my age (really young to be a Ph.D. student) but that doesn't explain the utmost respect and courtesy I received from the Mac Students.

 

Anyway this is off topic, but back to the point that I strongly feel that level of difficulty is fairly equal across schools but the type of environment can play a big role in a student's performance.

 

the Beav

[Guest Ian Wong]

Be nice people. No personal attacks please. You can criticize someone's statements (and I would encourage this), but not the person himself/herself...

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Beaver]

Hi Ian

 

I wasn't really attacking anyone personally but rather just sharing my experiences as a TA. There seems to be a false belief that schools vary in academic rigour (as the perhaps do in the States), however my time instructing at two different schools prove otherwise.

 

Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking anyone

 

the Beav

[Guest tankboy]

It is just so much more fun to read these things when the flames are flying... ziggurat seems a *tad* arrogant him/herself but you folks all seem a little looney to me. It makes for good reading however and I love logging on before/after an interview weekend to see how you all think.

 

Better than a Skinner box I tell you, keep it up!

 

tank-boy