Info about U of T

[Guest ML]

Could someone who attends U of T's med school tell me a little about it?

 

I've been reading some interview fourms and stuff, and the general consensus is that U of T is a "Cut-throat" competitive school...is that true??

 

I'd really appreciate your help!

[Guest Akane200]

U of T undergrad can be a cut throat competitive school depending on yourself (how you go about making friends and studying). I don't think that it's too different from other large universities.

 

I'll give a cynical view of things first (at the aggregate level anyways).

 

Let's see, if you study life sciences, the culture is quite competitive. There are about 1500 other students in the same thing, and most want to get into profacs (because, well, graduating with a human bio degree just isn't very competitive in the job market; fewer jobs...). Already, being with so many students, there is more competition. U of T St george campus does attract students with higher marks from high schools, and so the pool of high achievers would be larger than that of smaller sized universities (ie, more competitive people).

 

There IS a difference between the different campuses on U of T. I won't argue that too much, but I think there is a reason why cut offs for entry into scarborough and erindale campuses are lower. Courses are easier there (it's true!), and there is more competition on the St. George campus (and the pool of students in St George Campus on average had higher high school entry marks). Not to mention that the other 2 campuses are smaller in population, and has a "high school" sort of feel.

 

One of the advantages of such a large group of students is that there is bound to be a large group of people who only do average or not well in the first few years, so if the prof decides to bell the marks, you may be able to take advantage of that. You won't ever have to be on the bottom if you work hard. But don't expect to get good grades very easily either.

 

First and second year are the weeding out years, although even into third year, there's still some weeding out classes.

 

In general, it's can be hard to get to know people in you classes, but if you make the effort, it is NEVER a problem. People are more reluctant to help each other in the life sciences than they are in commerce or computer sciences. It's just that I think some people in the life sciences feel that they are losing some edge if they help you. So make sure you have a few really good friends in every class to help you out.

 

But moving aside from these cynical aspects, if I had to choose undergrad university again, I would still have chosen U of T. Getting marks is tougher (I still think it is easier to get high marks at Queens,or Western), but I got a lot out of the experience (plus, I like TO, I like being close to home, I like the very good friends that I made there, etc). There's an education there that teaches you to be flexible, and rise to the challenge (or learn how to avoid some too :b ). Some people, however, are greatly disillusioned by the U of T experience too. But I doubt that it is any different from other large and competitive univeristies (such as UBC, etc).

 

As for med school, U of T meds is quite different. The class size is only about 200, and you take all your courses together. Eventually, you will get to know everyone. People are quite friendly. You get grouped into academies that are stationed at the different hospitals. It's rather like a high school atmosphere. Oh, and it isn't cut throat. The profs are actually interested in teaching you to be good doctors.

[Guest ML]

Are ALL courses on the BELL CURVE at U of T, or any other big university for that matter?

 

How does the bell curve system of marking work?

[Guest Ian Wong]

At UVic anyway, the option of deciding whether to bell curve a course is done by the instructor, and should be indicated at the beginning of the course.

 

What that means is that the instructor (usually having the stats for the course from previous years) has the freedom to assign a "quota" of different letter grades. ie. In a class of 100 people, perhaps 10 will receive an 'A', 15 will receive a 'B', 30 will get a 'C', 30 will get a 'D', and 15 will fail with an 'F'.

 

Therefore, no matter what your final percentage is on your test, if you have one of the top ten marks, you automatically receive an 'A'. Because of this, the bell curve can work to your favour if the professor puts out a deadly wicked exam where the class average is 35% (yes, this actually happens). Therefore, the guy who got a 50%, and the top mark in the class actually ends up receiving an 'A'.

 

The bell curve essentially means that your grades are calculated relative to how well you did versus everyone else in your class, and not the actual percentage mark that you got on the test.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Akane200]

What Ian described just now is a very interesting practice. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen at U of T in most courses (at least not since the early '90s when things wer a lot different).

 

When I meant belling the marks, I meant that the class average may be in the 40's, and the prof will add 20 marks to every student (assuming no one got over 80) to raise the average to 60's. If that happens, and let's say you had 70 on the test, then you'd have a 90 recorded. I meant moving the whole bell curve over. However, if someone got 92 while everyone else was in the 40's then the maximum amount they could add is 8 marks. Something like that (or variations to that).

 

It happens in courses <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> sometimes<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> and is subject to the prof and department approval. It is very rare in general. It NEVER happens in chemistry (they say that if everyone gets 40's then that year was just not as smart as other years since they are VERY consistent); and in one year (mine actually) in second year biology, they actually deducted 7% from everyone on the final exam because the average was too high (grrr). So don't ever count on it to pull any of your marks up.

 

That being said, if you are looking for loop holes and easier marks in university, then you really should NOT be looking at U of T. It's a large university with pretty strict rules and challenging courses. But there are a lot of learning opportunities here (some which are unique, leading edge, etc.). Education wise, it is one of the best in Canada. And has many very good facilities.

[Guest ML]

Then why do universities limit the number of A's and things like that???

 

I do realize that there are some REALLY tough exams(such as Ian's example), and marking on the curve would even out the marks, but why would the faculty say that they can only permit a certain number of A's and things like that???

 

Also, if Akane's account of U of T not being a "Bell curve" school is correct, then wouldn't UBC be a more HARDCORE COMPETITIVE SCHOOL??? Since everyone will be trying to come in the top of their classes?

[Guest ML]

I heared that in engineering courses, the profs usually square root the marks!

 

THAT WOULD BE SOOOOOOOOO cool! but that practice probably has to do with the difficulty of engineering courses.

Root(0.64)=0.8

64% becomes 80%

[Guest Katie]

I'm in fourth year at UBC and have never had marks "curved" in the way Ian is describing. (At least I haven't known about it.) The curving system Akane mentioned is the one UBC uses as well.

 

For the most part. I had this really weird teacher a few years ago who scaled our exams by adding on 20% of the mark we earned. So if you got 42/50 your mark went up to 50/50. And if you got 8/50 your mark went up to 9/50. (Roughly. I don't have a calculator with me.) The class average was 50% so most marks hardly went up at all. Isn't that a weird way to scale? There was so much complaint, but the prof didn't seem to realize how unfair this was.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Heh. In undergrad at UVic, we once had a Chem professor test us on the chapter <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> after<!--EZCODE ITALIC END--> the end of the assigned chapters, which was not covered in any of his lectures or in the labs. His rationale?

 

"Well, that's done to separate out the A+'s from the A's!"

 

I suppose it never occurred to him that most students are carrying a full suite of other courses, and wouldn't be reading additional chapters beyond their syllabus just for fun...

 

When I was explaining the "bell curve" above, functionally it breaks down exactly as how the rest of you are describing it. Even in a wicked tough exam, there is usually (if the exam was designed fairly and there wasn't cheating) a normal-type distribution in the marks. Very rarely does everyone either ace the exam with the same marks, or fail the exam with the same marks. Almost invariably, there is a spread of marks across a range of percentages.

 

Whether you scale the marks up by either adding X% to each persons mark, or else simply assign grades via quota, or "relax" the percentile requirements for achieving each letter grade, the end result is the same. You are simply shifting the median point of that normal distribution towards either increased marks or decreased marks for everyone in the class. The neat part about our system for those classes was that you knew that some people would guaranteed walk out with an A.

 

I have also heard of at least one UVic class (can't remember which one it was), where the marks got scaled down for everyone. >:

 

Sure glad I'm not in undergrad anymore, and that we are on an Honours/Pass/Fail system.

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest ThugJaan]

Hey,

 

 

I think you are really worrying too much about nothing. Most professor's do not tell you if they will bell curve or not; afterall, you don't acutally see your final exam, so are you really sure that the mark you receivied wasn't altered?

 

I won't go to a school just b/c of the bell curve system; go somewhere that you will feel good spending the next 3-4 years of your life. I actually attended the Scarb. campus for my undergrad, and I can vouch for the 'high school' atmosphere. However, don't but the crap about Scarb. students not getting into meds @ UofT. There are quite a few of us here this year, including come from erindale.

 

 

Don't stress too much about where you need to go for undergrad. Pick a program/school b/c you want to do it (factoring in costs, living situation, etc.). Then, work hard, get involved, and start jumping through the hoops

 

Back to studying Embryology!

[Guest YongQ]

Yo, guys! ML wasn't asking about the undergrad here, he or she was just asking about the medical school. ML, please follow the link below to have my impressions about first year so far (and one from one of my classmates).

 

pub44.ezboard.com/fpremed...D=79.topic

[Guest ML]

so is there a lot of people from BC who are in U of T's Med School?

 

 

Is it easier for a U of T undergrad student to get into med than it is for....lets say a UBC student to get in?

[Guest YongQ]

There's no bias against us, ML. No official one, anyway. At least a third of the class is from U of T, and definitely about three quarters or more of the class is from Ontario, but that is because Ontario students tend to stay in province because the OOP status is not taken well in other provinces. So we end up with a couple thousand applicants in Ontario alone, and a small number of OOPs seem to come into Ontario just because of sheer numbers of Ontarians with which they have to compete.

 

In the first year class, I believe I've met 6 or 7 BC natives other than myself. Of those, only 3 or 4 went to BC for undergrad. I've met at least 5 Albertans, 1 Sask, no Manitobans, no Quebec (although there is 1 BC person who went to McGill), 1 Newfoundlander, and a couple people from the States. However, I know about 1/2 of the class and haven't really had a chance to ask each of them where they came from, so these are conservative numbers. Our class in general s very diverse however. I forgot to add (just FYI), that there is an astonishing number of people in our class that weren't born in Canada, and an even more astonishing number who were not raised speaking English as a first language.

[Guest Akane200]

I think "astonishing" is rather an extreme term to describe the class make up. This is Toronto, and I am not surprised to see that the UT meds class reflects the diversity also found in and around Toronto. Perhaps the lack of quotas have allowed more minorities to be represented?

 

I just want to emphasize that although many students don't seem to be born in Canada or have English as their first language, I think that all are quite proficient in English as well (I actually wonder how you can draw such a conclusion considering that you don't know 1/2 the people and didn't bother to ask where they are from???). In our class, I believe that the same diversity exists, and that origin/ first language should not be taken as an issue or a strange phenomenon.

[Guest YongQ]

Hi Akane,

 

I can draw these conclusions because sampling usually reflects the population. Pollsters don't usually poll a whole population because it is unfeasible, in the same way it just wouldn't be normal if I just went around asking everybody where they come from. Of course, this conclusion is up for debate, but I don't think it completely reflects the diversity of Toronto. Many of the people here are not from Toronto, and haven't even lived here before. And what are you talking about - diversity IS a phenomenon AND an issue whether you believe it or not. I didn't say these people were bad or deficient in their English, I am just saying diversity exists here. Why be so sensitive around it when there is nothing about which to be sensitive?

[Guest Akane200]

Sensitive? There's no need to get personal. May be I took it the wrong way (because what I'm reading is only text). I found the connotations around "astounding" to be negative (this may or may not be without reason).

 

I think diversity is a good thing. I didn't mean to say that most people are from Toronto, but because this is a diverse city, and because of that, I'm not surprised that the med class is diverse as well. It's something that I think is quite ordinary. I think it's a phenomenon that other places do not have such diversity which I believe to be an indication of the biases of their entrance requirements. In a system that is more fair, I think that diversity should exist.

 

What I took issue with was your use of words then (if it wasn't what you meant). I find that when speaking about diversity in general, I feel that reference to one's origin and (especially) first language should be irrelevant. Perhaps this is from my own previous bad experiences. You did not say that people were from all sorts of backgrounds and locations in general, but you made a generalization about first language BEING an issue (I just didn't like that, sorry). So, perhaps that was a misunderstanding on my part.

 

I think it is too often that first language/country of origin is associated to lack of English proficiency by some. I just didn't want anyone to perpetuate that belief or make generalizations about that. No, I don't think first language is an issue. I think we are all Canadians, and it's nice that we can be diverse, tolerant, and friendly; and that people still take us seriously regardless of our backgrounds (or the first language that we learn to speak).

 

As for sampling, if you want to get knit picky, I can too . <!--EZCODE ITALIC START--> Although sampling is a more efficient way of data collection and reflecting a population as a whole, there are a variety of factors you must take into consideration for sampling (especially in qualitative data collection! :lol DOCH 2...): random sampling, size of sample, questions asked (biases implied), etc. Without ensuring a good structure for quantification of data, and control of bias in data, your study will become little more than a subjective opinion.

 

I doubt that your sampling can quantify anything in terms of generalizability. Already, your sampling is biased towards only the people you know. That in itself decreases the generalizability of the sample and data collected (Not random, probably clustered). Next, the data collected should be consistent for each person you interview. etc. etc. <!--EZCODE ITALIC END-->

 

I can go on and on, but I won't. I find that your "sampling" explanation to be faulty, but I think you probably wrote it in haste and maybe annoyance at my previous response (but still, that sampling explanation just doesn't stand well in a good argument, it just makes me want to laugh....). I hope we can put it this behind us. I didn't mean to be too sensitive, but I didn't want people to get the wrong ideas about first languages/country of origin either.

 

If you would like to further elaborate the "issue" that diversity, country of origin, and first language spoken presents to the med class, I would really be interested in discussing that. As it stands right now, you have only eluded to the existance of the "issue" without describing it in any further detail.

[Guest bradfullmer44]

Hi there,

 

Akane raises a good point regarding one's first language and country of origin, etc. The truth is that we ALL make assumptions about individuals based on these issues -- even if we catch ourselves a split second afterwards and remind ourselves of the inherent dangers in doing so.

 

I was not born in Canada, and in fact, did not move here and learn English until I was eight years old. As it turned out, I took to the language very easily. I have always spoken English without any discernible accent, and I am as verbally articulate as any native-speaking peer whom I have come across personally.

 

Earlier this fall, when I was completing my COMPASS.OMSAS application online, I came across the question item that asked you to state whether your first language is "English" or "Other". Instinctively, I clicked "English". Then of course, I realized that this was not true. As I re-clicked "Other", for some reason I felt strange in doing so. I am extremely proud of my heritage outside Canada, but I also realized that, like it or not, people will look at my answer to that question, look at my last name, and make assumptions that I know to be false in my case. These assumptions may be major or minor, conscious or subconscious. I do not fault the people who make them, since I do the same thing -- however wrong I know it to be.

 

Do not get me wrong -- if I end up failing to gain entrance into medicine this year, I would not place an ounce of blame on the above issue. There are simply too many other measures of one's ability and suitability for medicine that are much more important. I simply raised this point to try to find some middle ground in the debate that this thread has raised. Then again, I don't think anyone here needs to be reminded that we do not live in a perfect world.

[Guest Coyote]

Just wanna thank Akane200 & bradfullmer44 for raising such good points! I have nothing else to say other than this since you pretty much included all the things I want to say in your post......These days a label of "ESL" is more like a label of one's ethnicity than a valid descriptor of a person's English proficiency. To me, such a label is too naive and simplistic......maybe I'm just sick of people calling me "ESL" when they see I'm of Chinese ancestry, even though my English proficiency is nothing like what this label implies......All the best.

[Guest YongQ]

Hi Akane,

 

Language is "an issue" by the mere fact you, Coyote, and Bradfullmer44 are discussing it with such zeal. You're right that I didn't go into exactly what makes it "an issue." In fact I believe you're interpreting my comment in the most disparaging way as possible, i.e. I support prejudice against ESL. This is wrong. If you have any concerns we can discuss this by e-mail; you know who I am. This is detracting from the original topic and thus I regret praising the diversity of my class in my post above, which was admittedly unnecessary.

 

ML, the bottom line is that UT is a school with no quotas for in-province, so any OOP will get a fair evaluation.

[Guest Ian Wong]

Hi everyone,

 

Just wanted to toss in my two cents that I think you guys have done a really great job of discussing a sensitive topic in a very candid and diplomatic manner. Thanks for keeping the tone of the topic very personable. We have one guy in our class who came to Vancouver from Hong Kong at age 12, and he reads and writes at the same speed that I do; which I still find incredible because I was a huge bookworm as a kid! He's also one of my best buddies in our class, and we've got lots in common despite our very different backgrounds.

 

As far as the original topic goes, I think this is a great example of topic drift, where each thread can head off in its own direction. As YongQ said, perhaps if there are still questions regarding the U of T competitiveness, they can be addressed here. Any more discussion on med school diversity, should you all wish to converse further, really merits its own thread.

 

Thanks all,

 

Ian

UBC, Med 3

[Guest Coyote]

I think the real issue that sparks the "zealous discussion" is not language, or diversity per se. What hits me is the simplistic view / hasty generalization some people hold / make regarding diversity e.g. "ESL students will perform worse than those from the mainstream culture". What angers me from the previous statement isn't the issue of language. It's the ignorance behind this comment.

 

However, I don't mean YongQ intentionally perpetuates prejudice. As Akane200 said, we're just reading the words, and the connotation I perceived from the word "astonishing" is pretty negative. To me, the sentence "there is an astonishing number of people in our class that weren't born in Canada, and an even more astonishing number who were not raised speaking English as a first language" means "ESL students, or those who're not born in Canada, shouldn't be expected to present in medical schools at all since they shouldn't be successful given that language thingy; however, in UofT, it's weird that these people exist."

 

I know that this may not be what YongQ means at all. Maybe it's just another piece of information that he thinks will be helpful to prospective UofT students. However, the unfortunate choice of word makes the sentence extremely offensive to me. By replying, I don't mean to start off another round of discussion. I simply want to make myself clear on why I reply with such zeal. I'll stop here since like YongQ said, we're drifting off-topic. I did appreciate our civilized discussion here, since that's the correct attitude to approach such a heated and loaded topic......

[Guest Cool]

After the year 2003-2004, the background of accepted medical students will be changed forever (at least for a while). The New Bachelor of Health Science Programme at McMaster have very impressive students and basically, being in that programme, almost guarantees an interview. High GPAs, high level of skill, this class is sure tough to beat.

[Guest KG]

What's so special about this new program at Mac? What OAC marks, etc. do you need to get in? Basically, as a "bachelor of health science", I don't see how it could be much better than a life sci program at Toronto, Queen's, etc...

[Guest Akane200]

Is this discussion meant for the U of T forum??? :b

[Guest strider2004]

This topic doesn't belong here but I'll post my reply here anyway until Ian moves the messages.

 

The new McMaster program is for 80 students to study the basic sciences of medicine. It is not unlike the new Bachelor of Medicine program at UWO. I think that the people in this program would be extremely competitive since they probably had wicked high marks to get in(it is probably harder to get into this program than the med program at Mac). Also, I don't see how it would produce students with higher marks. Everyone in med school knows that your marks DROP when you study medicine. Mine dropped about 10%. This would put you at a disadvantage in the meds application.

 

Med schools are looking for diversity so I don't necessarily think that medical science or health science degrees are that beneficial in the application. Its benefit would be in med school since you'd be repeating much of the same material.

 

Will this change the face of med school applications? Well there are 80 spots in this program and there are over 500 med student positions each year in Ontario. AND....grades and education are only one part of your application. Your life outside school is just as important.