A-Stark Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think regarding a superficial fashion statement like a tattoo as a matter of "courage" or "breaking the typical mold" is kinda immature and shallow. Just my opinion, of course, but it's not a valid reason for showing up in clinic wearing ripped jeans and a tank top either. Patients don't have to like you, but you need to be able to establish their trust. If want a tattoo, get one where it won't be seen in any possible professional setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewelLeigh Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 very insightful. Yet, I can't help but think that doctors are not martyrs. There will always be patients that don't like you based on individual prejudices. You can't appease everyone right? I'm sure there might be a study out there on how thinner doctors appear more healthy than obese doctors and thus instill confidence in their patients. So are obese doctors worse? Of course not. Will someone tell them "lose weight to instill more confidence in your patients?" I doubt it. And you know how far this could go (what else might someone not like about you?) I guess its a matter of conforming or actually being yourself and breaking the typical mold - which takes more courage. I'd like to think I want to help patients as much as someone without tatoos but frankly, and this may sound cold to some of you, but if a patient is going to look down on me for my appearance, so be it. If they don't want me to treat them b/c of it, fine. There are many patients out there and if a few don't like you for superficial reasons, i think you have to learn to deal with it. Regardless if you have tatoos or not, how smart you are, or how you look, there will always be someone who doesn't like you - if you think otherwise I'd suggest learning how to read others a bit better. just a fact of life I don't disagree. But I was not trying to make the point that patients might not like a doctor (which of course is also an issue, and for the record, increases your chance of being sued) because of appearance, but more that patients may just have a subconscious feeling of discomfort or mistrust of a doctor who doesn't fit their mold of "professional looking." This subconscious feeling may mean that you can't provide the reassurance they need or it may mean that they are less likely to comply with your treatment suggestions, etc., etc. As someone who is making the commitment (and for premeds, asking/begging for the chance to make the commitment) to serve others, it is worth an extra thought before making a permanent alteration to one's appearance. Again, how to dress, whether or not to have tattoos, piercings, etc., as well as many other lifestyle choices are highly personal...but it is reality that these things alter how others view you, both subconsciously and overtly. Just food for thought before making a big decision like getting a tattoo (and coming from someone who has a very small and "tasteful" tattoo and still regrets it big time!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochi1543 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think regarding a superficial fashion statement like a tattoo as a matter of "courage" or "breaking the typical mold" is kinda immature and shallow. Just my opinion, of course, but it's not a valid reason for showing up in clinic wearing ripped jeans and a tank top either. Patients don't have to like you, but you need to be able to establish their trust. If want a tattoo, get one where it won't be seen in any possible professional setting. LOL, these days NOT having a tattoo is breaking the mold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Stark Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 LOL, these days NOT having a tattoo is breaking the mold. Hahahaha. True enough. I must be a major non-conformist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I don't disagree. But I was not trying to make the point that patients might not like a doctor (which of course is also an issue, and for the record, increases your chance of being sued) because of appearance, but more that patients may just have a subconscious feeling of discomfort or mistrust of a doctor who doesn't fit their mold of "professional looking." This subconscious feeling may mean that you can't provide the reassurance they need or it may mean that they are less likely to comply with your treatment suggestions, etc., etc. As someone who is making the commitment (and for premeds, asking/begging for the chance to make the commitment) to serve others, it is worth an extra thought before making a permanent alteration to one's appearance. Again, how to dress, whether or not to have tattoos, piercings, etc., as well as many other lifestyle choices are highly personal...but it is reality that these things alter how others view you, both subconsciously and overtly. Just food for thought before making a big decision like getting a tattoo (and coming from someone who has a very small and "tasteful" tattoo and still regrets it big time!) i totally agree with everything you said. I guess for me, when i read about things like this, i just wonder how far a conversation like this can go. For instance, a friend of mine is a doctor, and he sustained a major facial scar when he was a child. This guy, has an amazing personality and yet I still know people will judge his look. I don't think anyone would dare say to him "cover it up" or "get plastic surgery" cause it makes patients a little hesitant to open up. I'm usually a realist but i guess in situations like this, I'm still too attached to my ideals. I actually do not have a tattoo. just said it for sake of arguement (yes i lied). I just don't plan to appease to those that are prejudice. Its just something i value and i don't think it is one bit inconsistent with being a doctor (even though i am one of those begging to get into the profession). that's just my opinion. Someone else may undergo a complete makeover to look more approachable and whatnot. Nothing wrong with that either if that's what you want. Just didn't want the non-conformists to feel obliged. Until this becomes a requirement (be tattoo free to get into medschool) I think diversity in thought will always be valued Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akheroux Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think regarding a superficial fashion statement like a tattoo as a matter of "courage" or "breaking the typical mold" is kinda immature and shallow. Just my opinion, of course, but it's not a valid reason for showing up in clinic wearing ripped jeans and a tank top either. Patients don't have to like you, but you need to be able to establish their trust. If want a tattoo, get one where it won't be seen in any possible professional setting. I think your preconceived notions towards tattoos are "superficial and shallow". This, of course, is my opinion, but it is the opinion of someone who invested years of thoughtful reflection before making the decision to get a tattoo. True, some people get tattoos in moments of recklessness and for ostensibly superficial reasons, but to cast them all under the net of "superficial fashion statements" shows a willful ignorance of a culture that has a rich history and carries significant meaning for many people who choose to make it a part of their lives. For instance, I got my tattoos (which are fairly large, but tasteful, and not visible over a dress shirt) after dedicating many years of my life to Muay Thai kickboxing, and I spent months planning them out with the artist in Thailand. The tattoos tell a story, and mark a particular moment in my life. I spent a great deal of time with other fighters, most of whom had pieces done themselves - each one was intimately personal and, for many, had spiritual/religious connection. None of us felt we were "breaking the mold", or any other sort of act of childish non-conformity. I understand a lot of patients will not see it this way. Such is life, and I believe physicians should make every reasonable effort to consider the feelings of those in their care, even if that means making personal concessions like covering up tattoos. It is, however, disappointing to hear that kind of judgmental and narrow-minded talk from medical students. Not just because I have tattoos, but because it is a mentality that can be extended to so many other things. I don't mean to pick on you A-Stark, as your other posts seem thoughtful and well-intentioned, but I wanted to address this as an issue that has bothered me in the past. /diatribe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbene085 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 akheroux - that's the perfect example of a tattoo that has a lot of meaning attached to it. I'd like to make a distinction. There has been a fair bit of discussion about patients judging appearance in a more conscious, deliberate way (e.g. judging professionalism in a clinical setting). In many - but not all - situations where you'd be wearing scrubs, the patient is in a particularly vulnerable state. Surgery is frightening. And there's a very significant chunk of the (mostly older) population which is intimidated and/or frightened by tattoos - back in the day, they were not something you'd see on a young professional. So a lot of older people have a gut reaction to them..one that could compound their fear and anxiety at a time when they need all the reassurance they can get. If and when I get a tattoo, I want it to be concealed. I don't ever want to find out that I scared someone before surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 I think regarding a superficial fashion statement like a tattoo as a matter of "courage" or "breaking the typical mold" is kinda immature and shallow. Just my opinion, of course, but it's not a valid reason for showing up in clinic wearing ripped jeans and a tank top either. Patients don't have to like you, but you need to be able to establish their trust. If want a tattoo, get one where it won't be seen in any possible professional setting. I think you misunderstood what I meant. I didn't say "Get the tattoo to stand out". What I meant was, if you already have one, its not something to be ashamed of it. Your last sentance seems to indicate it should be something to be ashamed of, and i think that's a very narrow minded view. If a patient won't trust you b/c of a tattoo and you have everything else going for you (warm personality, friendly, attentive), then that is the patient's loss at that point i would think. If the patient wants a male or female doctor, you going to have a sex-change? Perhaps I'm more open-minded b/c of my own personal background and experiences but I still think it is a form of prejudice to judge someone b.c they have a tattoo and i stand my earlier comments that if someone is prejudice, i will not go out of my way to appease them. If you actually think that makes you a bad doctor, then that's your own personal call. But I'm my own person before I'm anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Unfortunately, you are expected to fit into the mold. "Diversity" only goes so far. Example: my sister, now a member of the Bar obtaining her 2nd law degree, was refused an interview from one law school that claimed to be seeking diversity - she had a 90% average, walked off with academic awards, was a national winner of competition in ballet, dance and she is also a gmynast and actresss. She was not into the Model UN and political science ECs. Their loss, she uses her dramatic arts expertise in furthering awareness and the rights of children. She did not fit the mold, the preconception of what was expected of a law student, despite the fact there was supposedly no preconception and decisions were made strictly on the merits. My point: sure, a tattoo is great, diversity, etc. - however, it will certainly influence preconceptions of you by patients and might affect your chances of getting into med school if adcoms know, even though they claim it is a non-issue. When reality and diversity collide, diversity can become a word empty of meaning. Unfortunately, prejudice and prejudgments are alive and well, they can influence decisions although everybody claims 'absolutely not'. My two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 sometimes i wonder, is it patients or doctors who have more of these prejudice views. At times, there is a strong amount of ignorance reflected in posts/threads on this site and I just can't help but think that my future collegues are more likely to be prejudice than my future patients. PS (that wasn't a knock on this forum as its a good resource in case you wanted to pick on that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 sometimes i wonder, is it patients or doctors who have more of these prejudice views. ( s v 3 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbene085 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 ...and i stand my earlier comments that if someone is prejudice, i will not go out of my way to appease them. If you actually think that makes you a bad doctor, then that's your own personal call. But I'm my own person before I'm anything else. What about the case I brought up - where it's not a patient choosing not to trust you - but rather the gut reaction of a sick/injured, scared patient heading in to the OR? Maybe I'm being empathetic, but I don't want to contribute to their anxiety in any way that is easily preventable. And please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean to offend (especially if you're a francophone), but the adjective form is "prejudiced". I normally wouldn't point it out but I just read it over half a dozen times on this page and the grammar nazi in me had to say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 What about the case I brought up - where it's not a patient choosing not to trust you - but rather the gut reaction of a sick/injured, scared patient heading in to the OR? Maybe I'm being empathetic, but I don't want to contribute to their anxiety in any way that is easily preventable. And please don't take this the wrong way, because I don't mean to offend (especially if you're a francophone), but the adjective form is "prejudiced". I normally wouldn't point it out but I just read it over half a dozen times on this page and the grammar nazi in me had to say something. less important: i've seen the word used in both forms, whatever. more important: I think you might not be giving enough credit to people in general. if your a doctor, and someone knows that, a tattoo is not usually goign to make them think "oh that one slipped through the cracks". I don't intend to analyze every single situation for this issue b/c you can do that for hundreds of other issues. I rather think about the larger concept at hand as something like this can really be extended to a number of scenarios, read below. you can't control every part of your environment. you can try, sure, but that's a personal choice. I am a visible minority - so if a patient wants someone from a different background, should i just wear outfit that covers up as much skin as possible? Should i apologize for my ethnicity? Gut reaction or not - doesn't change things for me. perhaps i'm just really secure and confident in my own skin. Anyway, this is obviously a matter of personal opinion. I just didn't think it was right for some people to look down on others for their personal choices - i am talking here about people on this forum, not actual patients. PS (i dont spell check, there may be errors above, feel free to correct if you would like, i wont take offense) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 8, 2009 Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 ( s v 3 ) haha wasn't in repsonse to your quote (that's why i made sure i didnt quote your post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 haha wasn't in repsonse to your quote (that's why i made sure i didnt quote your post) ( sv3 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 And I have shown you the technique of taking your 3 letter forum name and turning it into the minimum 10 characters required to post, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abcwxyz Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 I read the thread. Be a professional at work. Do what you want on your own time or when not seeing patients. Dressing inappropriately or having a visible tattoo is not being an individual, it's being unprofessional. Patients will not appreciate it (I am sure everyone has heard many stories about such things). Other physicians will judge you for your lack of professionalism. This will have repercussions later. There's a reason why, at my school at least, we were talked to about dress codes and what it means to look professional on more than one occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
national Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Get the tattoo for christ's sake, it's 2009, people will live with it. medicine doesn't squash every last bit of your individuality. it's a job, not a cult. just be sure to post a picture of it once you get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 I read the thread. Be a professional at work. Do what you want on your own time or when not seeing patients. Dressing inappropriately or having a visible tattoo is not being an individual, it's being unprofessional. Patients will not appreciate it (I am sure everyone has heard many stories about such things). Other physicians will judge you for your lack of professionalism. This will have repercussions later. There's a reason why, at my school at least, we were talked to about dress codes and what it means to look professional on more than one occasion. that's your opinion - know that. You are not the spokesperson for the world and if you are, i hope you are in fact, a perfect person. Then again....you are judgemental....not sure if that screws up the whole perfect person thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
future_doc Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 striving for excellence and acheiving it is being professional, as is saving someone's life being judgmental and having preconceived prejudices is not being professional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mei_Mei_girl Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 I know an outstanding collegue in my class who has tatoos all up her arms (she is older and many of these were done at a younger age I beleive). When we were testing for blood glucose levels I had an emergency reaction and she was the one to "doctor me." Let me tell you, I'd rather have her help me with her caring ability than someone who looks proper but gives no ****. And I'm happy her tatoos didn't stop her from getting in . (ie. what about people who made those choices earlier in life before they thought about medicine???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sv3 Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 I know an outstanding collegue in my class who has tatoos all up her arms (she is older and many of these were done at a younger age I beleive). When we were testing for blood glucose levels I had an emergency reaction and she was the one to "doctor me." Let me tell you, I'd rather have her help me with her caring ability than someone who looks proper but gives no ****. And I'm happy her tatoos didn't stop her from getting in . (ie. what about people who made those choices earlier in life before they thought about medicine???) experiences like these show you what really matters. Sooner or later, most people have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atreides Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think it all depends on how much value something holds for you. If it holds a lot of value (i.e. religious or personal significance) or is closely tied to your sense of self or would be quite difficult to change (i.e. scars, a tattoo you have already gotten, birth marks, weight, other general physical characteristics) then of course you are not going to compromise and it would be not be a bad thing at all, and I feel like the majority of individuals would agree with this. There is also the issue of physical characterisitcs that it is impossible for one to change (i.e. skin colour), which could not be an issue as there is not only nothing one could do about it but also I doubt any reasonable individual would consider that level of prejudice okay, though I can understand why you would feel strongly. Whereas, if I did not think something was all that important, like a tatoo I may have chosen to get but have no significant personal feelings about (beyond thinking it was attractive and maybe marginally significant), I might attempt to cover it or choose to get it somewhere that it would be unlikely to show in scrubs or choose to not get one. So basically I feel like it has to do with how important you weigh something over how important you are weighing other considerations (such as the feelings of the patient or doctor). Also, I do feel that this prioritizing is mainly personal, excluding perhaps choosing to wear jeans or some other unprofessional clothing choice. I think others were simply trying to provide other points of view to clarify the issue for the OP who did not appear to attach a great deal of significance to his possible tattoo. Of course in an ideal world people would be judging others on the important things, like their behaviour and abilities, and not by how they appear, but unfortunately that is not a reality quite yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Law Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 Also, I need to post this: haha, just amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinch Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 I think Tattoos can be read as offensive by some. I knew someone that had a celtic cross tattoos at UBC on his forearms. He was accused of being racist for it even though he claimed it was irish pride. I am akin to believe him, but one can understand how tattoos can be misinterpreted. Many gangs and bikers have tattoos as requirements, and sometimes a young man with tattoos can be associated with unsavoury sorts. A Tattoos is not like skin colour or sex. It is something one chooses to do to themselves that is designed to give a statement to other people (despite the claims 'it means something to me'). There is a risk in doing that. I'm sure if some high school kid got a big swastika on their chest, and then grew up to become a doctor and couldn't afford the multi-thousand dollar laser procedure to safely remove it, people wouldn't give him the beneit of the doubt if they saw it in the OR. Anyways, I think small tasteful tattoos are fine. Obvious tattoos are unprofessional in my opinion however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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