Stats of Carribean students practising in canada

[jopchoi]

Just wondering if there was any statistic on the success rate of students who studied med school in the carribean and then being able to practice in the US or Canada?

 

Also

 

can one get there rotations in a canadian hospital if going to any of the carribean school? and if so how do they go about doing that

 

thanks.

[leviathan]

Not sure where to find that for you, sorry. If you exclude all the people who failed out or left med school before the point of applying, I think almost all of the remaining people match, or at least close to the % of Cdn/US students who match. I feel like a broken record, but if you read any of the other threads in here, I have said that % match rate might get worse over the coming years.

 

You can do electives in Canadian hospitals. You apply through the individual schools for these opportunities.

[Mourning Cloak]

Ross U (one of the biggest and best Caribbean schools) quotes its penultimate match rate at 80% (i.e. 80% of the students who graduate will match somewhere, eventually).

 

In Canada, there is some limited data on matching for Caribbean students from the 2009 match:

 

Match rate of Caribbean/C. American grads = 33%

Match rate of European grads = 33% (and matched the greatest absolute number n = 112)

Match rate of Oceania/Pacific Island grads = 55%

Match rate of African grads = 16%

Match rate of Asian grads = 17%

Match rate of Middle Eastern grads = 16%

Match rate of South American grads = 42%

Match rate of North American grads* = 29%

 

*I assume this means Mexican grads, since neither Canadian nor US grads would be IMGs.

 

(Overall, the first round for IMGs had a 24% match rate; it's quoted as 8% for second round).

[jopchoi]

o wow good stuff thanks for that

[rmorelan]

Time to leap over to this thread instead of hijacking the last one we were discussing those findings. Is it fair then based on these numbers that the odds of successfully returning to Canada are relatively poor (best chance I see from those findings from those who applied is 55%, and most are only 33%) - and this is before any ROS or specialization limitations etc are considered?

 

I have a presentation to give on the med school process at a career centre in Jan, and I am trying to make absolutely sure I am not misrepresenting the international school route - the whole balanced and fair thing is the goal

[leviathan]

Time to leap over to this thread instead of hijacking the last one we were discussing those findings. Is it fair then based on these numbers that the odds of successfully returning to Canada are relatively poor (best chance I see from those findings from those who applied is 55%, and most are only 33%) - and this is before any ROS or specialization limitations etc are considered?

 

I have a presentation to give on the med school process at a career centre in Jan, and I am trying to make absolutely sure I am not misrepresenting the international school route - the whole balanced and fair thing is the goal

Interesting idea, rmorelan. I want to say the chances are much higher for particular schools within those regions, but I have no hard facts to back that up. Thus, 33% - 55% is a reasonable stat to quote, and I'd also make sure to mention that these are % rankings only for those who made it to the point of applying to CaRMS. Many international schools have high attrition rates, so they have to factor that in when they consider the % match rates.

 

In general, international schools are still a bad idea for anyone wishing to match in Canada, and although they are currently reasonable for matching in the US, that may be changing in the coming years as well. However, if one can match into the US, then it has recently become much easier to return to Canada and practice with your US qualifications, so that is another thing to consider.

[rmorelan]

Interesting idea, rmorelan. I want to say the chances are much higher for particular schools within those regions, but I have no hard facts to back that up. Thus, 33% - 55% is a reasonable stat to quote, and I'd also make sure to mention that these are % rankings only for those who made it to the point of applying to CaRMS. Many international schools have high attrition rates, so they have to factor that in when they consider the % match rates.

 

In general, international schools are still a bad idea for anyone wishing to match in Canada, and although they are currently reasonable for matching in the US, that may be changing in the coming years as well. However, if one can match into the US, then it has recently become much easier to return to Canada and practice with your US qualifications, so that is another thing to consider.

 

I am with you - I was hoping the international route would be more obviously accepting! I keep hoping someone will point out a flaw in these numbers, or explain why they are limited in scope. If anyone has any specifics from a particular school I would be interested in hearing about it - maybe there are specific places that are just better to go to.

 

You mention returning after full US training - that sounds promising. You just complete you US training and then what do you have to do to come back. It is a reasonable alternative to dealing with IMG Carms limitations (restricted specialities, or ROS arrangements) to just go to the US, complete residency and then jump back to Canada after completing some qualifying exams? Or do you have to practice for awhile down there before that would apply?

[Mourning Cloak]

It's usually not as simple as just doing your US residency and coming back.

 

Unless you are able to take advantage of the fourth pathway in Ontario, coming back to Canada means doing the LMCCs and the royal college certification exam in your specialty.

 

This latter piece seems to stymie a lot of American grads - apparently the royal college exams are quite different from the US specialty board exams, and non-Canadian trained specialists often fail them. It's not impossible to pass, of course, but it seems to present a fair challenge for a number of people.

 

I don't know if you'll be talking about the DO route, but I learned something interesting perusing the CaRMS site: most of the provinces don't accept DO grads in the first round CaRMS match. I didn't know that, but if you were a med student going to the US dead set on returning via CaRMS, it would be important to know this.

[rmorelan]

It's usually not as simple as just doing your US residency and coming back.

 

Unless you are able to take advantage of the fourth pathway in Ontario, coming back to Canada means doing the LMCCs and the royal college certification exam in your specialty.

 

This latter piece seems to stymie a lot of American grads - apparently the royal college exams are quite different from the US specialty board exams, and non-Canadian trained specialists often fail them. It's not impossible to pass, of course, but it seems to present a fair challenge for a number of people.

 

I don't know if you'll be talking about the DO route, but I learned something interesting perusing the CaRMS site: most of the provinces don't accept DO grads in the first round CaRMS match. I didn't know that, but if you were a med student going to the US dead set on returning via CaRMS, it would be important to know this.

 

Thanks for the info! I still have to fully learn what the difference between a DO and a MD down in the US is.

 

I expected the examinations - disappointing that the pass rate is relatively low. I wonder if it is just the material, our approach is different, the exam itself.... At least it is an option - do you know if you can write these exams during/right after residency? I know I am going to get questions about any time lags etc

[Mourning Cloak]

The Royal College will determine whether you are eligible to write the Royal College exams.

 

Assuming that you did your residency in the US, have passed the US licensing exams, and the residency was of the same duration as the corresponding Canadian residency, then you shouldn't have much trouble being allowed to sit the exams. So you can do them pretty much right away. They are held once a year (in the spring for a primary specialty and in the fall for subspecialties).

 

The problems with the exams in particular appears to be that they emphasize different things. They ask different questions. They expect you to know different things. I don't know what the actual pass rate is for non-Canadian trained applicants - the Royal College won't tell - but I have heard many a recruited American complain about them.

[VanMD]

WOW. It is like the blind leading the blind here.

 

My apologies if I come across blunt and direct, but take it as you like.

 

It is ironic how none of you are at a Caribbean med school yet you speak as if you know what things are like.

 

If you interested do a proper search. Especially on Valuemd.com where almost everyone is going to Caribbean school. Especially look up licensing requirements for IMGs trained residency in the USA to return to Ontario.

 

For the above posters who will be giving a talk of some sort about medical school. I would suggest you stick to things you know. ie. not IMG route. You should consider yourself lucky that you got in to a Canadian medical school, and just remember that when you start complaining about the tuition, the little money they pay you to do rotations, etc...

[VanMD]

Ross U (one of the biggest and best Caribbean schools) quotes its penultimate match rate at 80% (i.e. 80% of the students who graduate will match somewhere, eventually).

 

In Canada, there is some limited data on matching for Caribbean students from the 2009 match:

 

Match rate of Caribbean/C. American grads = 33%

Match rate of European grads = 33% (and matched the greatest absolute number n = 112)

Match rate of Oceania/Pacific Island grads = 55%

Match rate of African grads = 16%

Match rate of Asian grads = 17%

Match rate of Middle Eastern grads = 16%

Match rate of South American grads = 42%

Match rate of North American grads* = 29%

 

*I assume this means Mexican grads, since neither Canadian nor US grads would be IMGs.

 

(Overall, the first round for IMGs had a 24% match rate; it's quoted as 8% for second round).

 

Biggest and Best!!! Hardly. Previous grads from there wish they did not go there.

 

My friend went to Ross instead of SGU where I go. He said he would rather get castrated then have to go back to Ross.

[VanMD]

Good luck with your little discussion on here. I have to go and study for my step2s and for my US clinical rotations.

[VanMD]

Read the article you linked on here.

 

http://www.tampabay.com/news/health/medicine/article1061189.ece

 

It has some horrible things to say about ROSS. Hardly the best school. SGU is by far the closest thing to a North American school. Probably better than some in the USA or Canada.

[rmorelan]

WOW. It is like the blind leading the blind here.

 

My apologies if I come across blunt and direct, but take it as you like.

 

It is ironic how none of you are at a Caribbean med school yet you speak as if you know what things are like.

 

If you interested do a proper search. Especially on Valuemd.com where almost everyone is going to Caribbean school. Especially look up licensing requirements for IMGs trained residency in the USA to return to Ontario.

 

For the above posters who will be giving a talk of some sort about medical school. I would suggest you stick to things you know. ie. not IMG route. You should consider yourself lucky that you got in to a Canadian medical school, and just remember that when you start complaining about the tuition, the little money they pay you to do rotations, etc...

 

Actually I cannot restrict myself to just non-IMG routes - that's the point, and why I am asking these questions and trying to learn as much as I can Hence you viewpoints are welcome, particularly if you can help me back up your position with any survey data etc that I could present at the career centre - I have an army of pre-meds I have to help achieve their goals.

 

For the record you will never catching me complaining about tuition and I live in constant awe of how lucky I was to get into a Canadian school - although you may hear me complain about the colder weather compared to my Caribbean counterparts

 

The information we are looking at so far is from CARMS and wouldn't reflect people completing the full US residency and then returning - although for what it is I would like to think it is pretty accurate. From that point (completing MD school abroad and then immediately returning for residency in Canada) do you doubt this information or have an alternative take on it?

 

As for doing that a full US residency prior to returning - which does sound like the likely route people will have to take if they want to return eventually to Canada based on what I have seen, I am hoping to explore the full scope of this. If you do go to the Caribbean are there any difficulties in selecting a US residency (similar to the IMG limitations in Canada) or it is wide open? My understanding is that residency in the US pays significantly less than Canada's programs do - is this correct? If so I guess that is just another financial barrier along the route, but those are perhaps the easier blockages to overcome in the grand scheme of things. Are there any other barriers to return other than this test (entrance quotas or some required additional training in Canada that would be useful to know about). A lot of questions I know, but I guess that is how we learn

 

Sound like the discussion is drifting into particular schools - do any of these post the final statistics (overall completion rate of program, success at matching in to residency program etc)? Likely not but it would be good information to have if it is released.

 

Forgive me for being a bit pedantic - I see this Caribbean route questions posted quite a bit, but I guess I am hoping for a bit more depth than normally probed for.

[leviathan]

It's usually not as simple as just doing your US residency and coming back.

 

Unless you are able to take advantage of the fourth pathway in Ontario, coming back to Canada means doing the LMCCs and the royal college certification exam in your specialty.

 

This latter piece seems to stymie a lot of American grads - apparently the royal college exams are quite different from the US specialty board exams, and non-Canadian trained specialists often fail them. It's not impossible to pass, of course, but it seems to present a fair challenge for a number of people.

 

I don't know if you'll be talking about the DO route, but I learned something interesting perusing the CaRMS site: most of the provinces don't accept DO grads in the first round CaRMS match. I didn't know that, but if you were a med student going to the US dead set on returning via CaRMS, it would be important to know this.

US Board Exams in Family Medicine are now equivalent to CCFP, and Ontario and BC (and other provinces probably) accept USMLE 1-3 as equivalent to MCCQE 1+2. It's actually quite simple for family meds. Specialties might be harder, but I know people practicing EM from the States in Canada.

[Mourning Cloak]

I would suggest you stick to things you know. ie. not IMG route.

 

Enlighten us then. What is the match rate for SGU? What is the four-year graduation rate? The six year graduation rate? (References, please).

 

The only school that has, to my knowledge, ever revealed these numbers is Ross.

 

US Board Exams in Family Medicine are now equivalent to CCFP, and Ontario and BC (and other provinces probably) accept USMLE 1-3 as equivalent to MCCQE 1+2. It's actually quite simple for family meds. Specialties might be harder, but I know people practicing EM from the States in Canada.

 

Specialties are harder (yes, Van, the opinion of someone who has been through the process):

 

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8873967&postcount=6

 

Somebody on studentdoctor.com put it this way: if you're already committed to the Caribbean route, just close your eyes and try not to hear any of this, because the stark and cruel reality isn't going to help. But if you haven't made a decision yet, then definitely consider the experiences of your colleagues before you make any big decisions. That latter group is the one that rmorelean is trying to reach.

[dedemed]

Ross U (one of the biggest and best Caribbean schools) quotes its penultimate match rate at 80% (i.e. 80% of the students who graduate will match somewhere, eventually).

 

In Canada, there is some limited data on matching for Caribbean students from the 2009 match:

 

Match rate of Caribbean/C. American grads = 33%

Match rate of European grads = 33% (and matched the greatest absolute number n = 112)

Match rate of Oceania/Pacific Island grads = 55%

Match rate of African grads = 16%

Match rate of Asian grads = 17%

Match rate of Middle Eastern grads = 16%

Match rate of South American grads = 42%

Match rate of North American grads* = 29%

 

*I assume this means Mexican grads, since neither Canadian nor US grads would be IMGs.

 

(Overall, the first round for IMGs had a 24% match rate; it's quoted as 8% for second round).

 

I thought anyone who does his medschool out of Canada is considered an IMG and is really doesn't matter wether u come from US or Caribb your chance of getting residency match in Canada is same!!!

[Mourning Cloak]

Canadian citizens who graduate from an US allopathic med school are NOT considered IMGs.

[macballa]

So does that mean US Osteopathic Medicine graduates who are Canadian citizens are also not IMGs? If not then where do DOs lie exactly, as IMGs or somewhere in between?

[Mourning Cloak]

You need to call UBC and ask.

 

Note that most provinces do not allow DOs to enter the first match of CaRMS at any rate (Ontario allows them to compete with CMGs and BC doesn't say).

 

http://carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml

[moo]

The website http://www.osteopathic.ca provides more info about DOs in Canada.

 

If you go to the College of Physicians of BC's website http://www.cpsbc.ca, and click on Find a physician's contact info, and type in "Church" in the last name, you will find at least one DO practicing in BC.

[leviathan]

The website http://www.osteopathic.ca provides more info about DOs in Canada.

 

If you go to the College of Physicians of BC's website http://www.cpsbc.ca, and click on Find a physician's contact info, and type in "Church" in the last name, you will find at least one DO practicing in BC.

 

Thanks for the info Moo!