Sharing faith in a medical practice

[Tango Charlie]

Sure, I've read the bible. See, here is mine. I'm not sure what you think it is I'm missing. About the only core tenet that the Christian denominations share is their belief that nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. That is the essence of Christianity, much as Islam is summed up by acknowledging that there is only one god and Muhammad (peace be unto him) is his prophet.

 

And, once again, my point is that even amongst Christians there is hardly a consensus as to what the correct manner of being a Christian is. Some take the edicts of the Pope as being on par with biblical commandments, other people don't give a **** what goes on in the Vatican. What I am trying to demonstrate is that there is no ultimate correct path to be trod here. If you meet a Christian who does things differently than you do, you have zero right to try and correct them on it. If what they do makes them feel closer to their god, then that's what works for them and you ought to respect it just as much as you would expect your view to be respected. You have no right to tell anyone they're practicing their faith incorrectly, unless perhaps you're a priest and they're part of your congregation.

[nemesis]

Sure, I've read the bible. See, here is mine. I'm not sure what you think it is I'm missing. About the only core tenet that the Christian denominations share is their belief that nobody comes to the Father except through Jesus. That is the essence of Christianity, much as Islam is summed up by acknowledging that there is only one god and Muhammad (peace be unto him) is his prophet.

 

Haha, placed alongside Darwin's On The Origin of Species.

 

Classic!

[cnb88]

So I've been following this a little, and let me just say (to both sides) you cannot convince the other that God exists or doesn't. Unless you die. In which case... well, you still can't convice the other person because if you believe there is no God, chances are you do not believe in an afterlife, and if you're right, well.... haha (and if the other side is right, well, chances are the other person would just think they're hallucinating....)

 

Anyways, the reason why I was going to post:

There has been scientific evidence that for those that believe prayer has had profound effects on recovery time/quality of life. It's like a sort of placebo effect (I'm not saying it is a placebo effect, it's like a placebo effect). If you believe that something will help, chances are it will, simply because you believe it will. A mind over matter kind of thing. Many people (who do this) will do this in conjunction with any medical treatment they seek.

 

Now while there will be people that believe in prayer and the power of it, chances are they will already be praying in their own way to their own God (be it God in the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc. "form"). So in my opinion, there is no need to "educate them" while they are seeking medical treatment. If they wanted spiritual guidance, they would be going to the proper "leader" (ie pastor, rabbi, etc) of that faith for information.

 

itimebomb, if you wanted to "be a good Christian" I would suggest saying a prayer at night for your (potential) future patients instead of trying to convert them.

 

To the person who said that if a Jehovah's Witness refused a blood trasfusion you would (essentially) tell them that their beliefs are stupid and that they would be putting their family through hardship with their death etc. (I can't remember who said that, and I don't feel like going back), you need to read up and ensure you have your facts straight before you comment. For many in that faith, if a family member were to accept the transfusion, they would be "dead to the family" anyways. The family would not be allowed to have contact with that person any longer. That person would be disowned from the family. Now, if you made a decision to live, but had nothing (ie no family) to live for, what kind of life would that be? Especially since family would probably be very important to you in the first place. As potentially "backwards" as this may sound, it is something people believe very strongly in.

 

As an example of the potential (albeit severe) consequences of going against patient wishes/parent wishes/people's beliefs as a doctor, I recommend an episode of the TV show "Babylon 5" (season 1) called "Believers". It deals with this very topic (on an alien level mind you- but the concepts are still the same) and presents both sides quite well- from a doctor and from a patient perspective (the show isn't a medical drama btw.. it was just this one episode that dealt with the issue). Either way, you can see how far CGI has come in like 10 years haha (the entire series is good for those that like sci-fi..).

[thebouque]

To the ignorant OP, 1 word: laicité

[Tango Charlie]

Anyways, the reason why I was going to post:

There has been scientific evidence that for those that believe prayer has had profound effects on recovery time/quality of life. It's like a sort of placebo effect (I'm not saying it is a placebo effect, it's like a placebo effect). If you believe that something will help, chances are it will, simply because you believe it will. A mind over matter kind of thing. Many people (who do this) will do this in conjunction with any medical treatment they seek.

 

That's not true at all, actually. Prayer seems to do more harm than good when people know they're being prayed for, and has no effect at all if the person is unaware they're being prayed for. The power of prayer seems to be, therefore, sort of the opposite of what people might like to believe.

[itimebomb2]

To the ignorant OP, 1 word: laicité

 

Well, clearly this thread has lost all manner of thought provoking conversation.

 

Since many of you don't even have the common courtesy of respecting the dignity of other people, without making flagrant personal insults at them, I guess I'll just stop posting here altogether.

 

If anyone actually wants to have a civil conversation about this issue, I'm open to PMs.

 

Cheers

[nemesis]

And thus ends one of the largest threads in the Medical Student General Discussions subforum.

 

 

EDIT: I should have known that this thread would be unremitting!

[sama951]

Its funny because I just read through the entire thing and the three times I wanted to post something, Nemesis posted exactly what I wanted to say haha

[mig174]

Several people have made the point that you have to respect religion. I can't understand why. It's just one idea in a sea of many we are exposed to every day. Some ideas/thoughts/beliefs are so ridiculous that we have to call them for what they are. Do you respect Jenny Mccarthy's belief that vaccines cause autism? No, of course you don't. It's plain that it doesn't make sense rationally and is not supported empirically. Same thing for the evolution vs creationism debate. What's the point of respecting an idiotic idea? Why give it any credibility if it deserves none?

 

I don't see how slapping the tag of "religion" on something makes it immune from criticism or ridicule. You believe it in it - well, then expect your beliefs to be challenged if you live in the real world. You shouldn't expect respect by default, you have to earn it. And I'm sorry, basing your entire life on a belief in something so inherently illogical and improbable as the existence of a Christian (or Muslim, or any other religion) God is not something that commands respect by default - it's logically indefensible and empirically unfounded. (n.b. belief in a god/creator may exist is NOT religion - religion is a lot more than just believing in a god, it's culture. I would consider deism as a much more tenable position to hold than theism).

 

I just don't really see the need for respecting ideas after you've given them extensive thought and decided they simply don't make sense. And I guarantee you, most of the people arguing against you, itimebomb2, have given religion considerable thought - their parents are most likely religious and in many ways, they have had to consider arguments on both sides to make their own choice in the end. Simply claiming that people don't agree with you because they don't understand you is facile. It's not that people don't understand your philosophy, it's just they think it's stupid and archaic. I'm sorry if this hurts.

[cnb88]

That's not true at all, actually. Prayer seems to do more harm than good when people know they're being prayed for, and has no effect at all if the person is unaware they're being prayed for. The power of prayer seems to be, therefore, sort of the opposite of what people might like to believe.

 

I don't mean that having someone pray for you (ie NOT a doc praying for their patients)... I mean, for those people (ie patients) that believe in a God, if they pray for themselves (ie Bob is sick, believes in God, and Bob prays), and believe that with prayer God will help them (not necessarily cure, but help nonetheless) it does help. We talked about it in one of my physiology classes (neuroendoimmunomodulation). It's like a mind over matter thing. The power of the nervous system over the immune system when sick is startling. Obviously it isn't a cure-all and cannot help with EVERYTHING, but to a certain extent the belief that you will get better (ie through prayer or just hope on its own) can help stimulate the immune system. Likewise, if you believe you are sick, you will be sick. That's why some hypochondriacs seem sick, because they have so convinced themselves that they are, that their immune system "believes" it too.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, I am in no way condoning what the OP was (or seems) to be asking, I'm just providing info for the other side, the point I'm trying to make is that if people already believe in a God, they will pray for themselves/families. They don't need spiritual guidance at a doctor's office, they need medical guidance.

[Tango Charlie]

I don't mean that having someone pray for you (ie NOT a doc praying for their patients)... I mean, for those people (ie patients) that believe in a God, if they pray for themselves (ie Bob is sick, believes in God, and Bob prays), and believe that with prayer God will help them (not necessarily cure, but help nonetheless) it does help. We talked about it in one of my physiology classes

 

Fair enough, but what's the difference in outcome between someone who prays for himself and believes prayers help and someone who is overall just optimistic and upbeat regarding his or her condition? It's a given that prayer accounts for naught, so whatever emotions faith produces in people, it's really just a question of finding an atheist who feels essentially the same way about their fate (albeit for different reasons). Ultimately, you're not saying that prayer helps, you're saying that feeling good and being happy helps, which is demonstrably the case.

 

Several people have made the point that you have to respect religion. I can't understand why. It's just one idea in a sea of many we are exposed to every day. Some ideas/thoughts/beliefs are so ridiculous that we have to call them for what they are. Do you respect Jenny Mccarthy's belief that vaccines cause autism? No, of course you don't. It's plain that it doesn't make sense rationally and is not supported empirically. Same thing for the evolution vs creationism debate. What's the point of respecting an idiotic idea? Why give it any credibility if it deserves none?

 

Richard Dawkins devotes some time toward this in his book The God Delusion. It's not that religion deserves no respect, it's that it doesn't deserve any more respect than, say, someone's political views. Why they believe what they do is simply a question of their character. It doesn't necessarily mean they're more or less intelligent for believing one way over the other (although that certainly can be the case). But, being something that isn't always grounded in logic, you can't expect to challenge people over their religious views on that basis and actually get anywhere. The OP, for instance, made claims about being a "scientist" and said that his conversion to some form of Christianity came from some type of reasoned thought process in high school. In his case it would be fair to take whatever reasons he so suspiciously declined to provide us, and rip them to shreds for being the ignorant horse **** they invariably are. But for others, if you call them out on their religion when they believe it because it just "feels right" or something, you're going to look like a **** and will wind up wasting your time.

 

However, I am behind you 100% in that society needs to offer religions no special privilege. We're past the need to believe in that stuff now, as a people, and religious interference in law and politics is just reprehensible. Religion was the justification for slavery, the institutionalized misogyny that we're still dealing with today, the hard-on people have for depriving homosexuals of their right to marry, serve openly in the military, and for women to have control over their bodies (both birth control and abortions). Every stupid, backwards, idiotic law that societies have pretty much ever had to deal with stem from some jackass and his bible, or qur'an, or torah. So while a private religious observance is fine and dandy, I will say that we need to have zero tolerance for that stuff where it actually counts.

[C2U2]

Last time I went out to lunch with my friends, one of them (he's really religious) tried to talk me into becoming a a "real" Christian by being "baptized". And according to him, only "baptized" Christians benefit from that Eternal Life (I'm not even familiar with what this is).

 

First of all, both my mom and I are Christians. We believe in God. However, I do not believe that Christian need to be baptized to benefit from "eternal life". That's just ridiculous. I mean anyone can be baptized, but I do not think everyone deserves to have Eternal Life (if that even exists).

 

Needless to say, we were in a pretty heated argument. But anyway, what made me feel really awkward was the fact that he started talking about this Christianity stuff out of nowhere. That is really freaky, and if a doctor ever does this, I'd never ever go back.

[trymeover]

Last time I went out to lunch with my friends, one of them (he's really religious) tried to talk me into becoming a a "real" Christian by being "baptized". And according to him, only "baptized" Christians benefit from that Eternal Life (I'm not even familiar with what this is).

 

First of all, both my mom and I are Christians. We believe in God. However, I do not believe that Christian need to be baptized to benefit from "eternal life". That's just ridiculous. I mean anyone can be baptized, but I do not think everyone deserves to have Eternal Life (if that even exists).

 

Needless to say, we were in a pretty heated argument. But anyway, what made me feel really awkward was the fact that he started talking about this Christianity stuff out of nowhere. That is really freaky, and if a doctor ever does this, I'd never ever go back.

 

Dude, but that's totally true. If you're not baptized you don't get eternal life.

 

Also, if you don't convert at least 5 people a month, then you're kicked out of Church and lose heaven points.

 

Just follow the rules man.

[mbene085]

There's way too much smugness going around here. I am as agnostic as they come, but I believe there's a reason you can't disrespect religion, and it is this: it's part of that person's culture. Forget that crap about us "being beyond the need for religion."

 

Many of your patients will be religious, and if you view their beliefs with a smug sense of superiority, what other cultural pillars will you try to trample on? Part of medicine is accepting your patients as they are, and bridging cultural gaps. You get to choose your beliefs; they get to choose theirs.

 

Of course the OP was being ridiculous, but some of these replies are equally ridiculous, even if they're on the other side of the fence. If all these posters are actually med students (and not premeds), I fear for their patients. They deserve a non-judgemental environment, and they may not be getting one (e.g. it is NOT ok for you to be judging a terminal cancer patient if she tells you she's been praying for you to tell her she's in remission). If you're thinking "Stupid woman, Jesus can't do anything about ductal carcinoma," even if you aren't saying it, you're not doing your job right.

[doctor2]

argh i'm too late to chime in. guys, keep in concise. there's liek 19 pages of stuff

[Shell]

Agreed! Most sensible comment so far.

 

There's way too much smugness going around here. I am as agnostic as they come, but I believe there's a reason you can't disrespect religion, and it is this: it's part of that person's culture. Forget that crap about us "being beyond the need for religion."

 

Many of your patients will be religious, and if you view their beliefs with a smug sense of superiority, what other cultural pillars will you try to trample on? Part of medicine is accepting your patients as they are, and bridging cultural gaps. You get to choose your beliefs; they get to choose theirs.

 

Of course the OP was being ridiculous, but some of these replies are equally ridiculous, even if they're on the other side of the fence. If all these posters are actually med students (and not premeds), I fear for their patients. They deserve a non-judgemental environment, and they may not be getting one (e.g. it is NOT ok for you to be judging a terminal cancer patient if she tells you she's been praying for you to tell her she's in remission). If you're thinking "Stupid woman, Jesus can't do anything about ductal carcinoma," even if you aren't saying it, you're not doing your job right.

[Tango Charlie]

There's way too much smugness going around here. I am as agnostic as they come, but I believe there's a reason you can't disrespect religion, and it is this: it's part of that person's culture. Forget that crap about us "being beyond the need for religion."

 

Many of your patients will be religious, and if you view their beliefs with a smug sense of superiority, what other cultural pillars will you try to trample on? Part of medicine is accepting your patients as they are, and bridging cultural gaps. You get to choose your beliefs; they get to choose theirs.

 

We're not dealing with patients here, we're dealing with random people in a casual context over the Internet. You would be shocked, I'm sure, to know the privately held beliefs of many physicians, but you'd never know what those beliefs are because most have the sense to keep it out of their practice. So please spare us the patronizing lecture on how to deal with patients, I don't think the virtues of professionalism with regard to patients etc is lost on us, it's simply a matter of this not having anything to do with patient interaction.

[mbene085]

We're not dealing with patients here, we're dealing with random people in a casual context over the Internet. You would be shocked, I'm sure, to know the privately held beliefs of many physicians, but you'd never know what those beliefs are because most have the sense to keep it out of their practice. So please spare us the patronizing lecture on how to deal with patients, I don't think the virtues of professionalism with regard to patients etc is lost on us, it's simply a matter of this not having anything to do with patient interaction.

 

Actually, much of this discussion has been about how to deal with religious beliefs in a clinical context (both ours and our patients'), so I hardly think it's irrelevant. My point was that providing a patient with an empathic and non-judgemental environment is about more than simply masking your prejudices. Your posts weren't the ones that worried me, it was more the completely hyperbolic and antagonistic ones.

[Tango Charlie]

I'm not a fan of the openly hostile opinions being expressed toward religion here and elsewhere myself, but at the same time it is silly to chastise people over sharing those views here insofar as how they would interact with patients goes. Everyone, no matter how insouciant and idealistic, will eventually encounter a patient they have to hide their true feelings about. But even then, it's still possible to empathize with them, or at least to provide quality care without letting your opinions colour your actions. Either way, ease up on the sanctimony.

[Mei_Mei_girl]

You know, there used to be a time when people in North America were open to discussing spiritual things. Discussing matters of religion, faith and spirituality were common amongst the masses. This is still true of many places on earth, and in certain communities as well.

 

The fact that you yourself see no value to discussing religion is based solely on the fact that you've decided that there is no god.

 

This may shock you - but not everyone agrees with you. There are a lot of people who are very interested in talking about spiritual matters. Since I make a point of it in my every day life, I know this for a fact. So why not just be a little more open-minded?

 

I don't like the term proselytize. I prefer open-minded discussion. There is no intention from my end of converting people, only to make them aware of a way of thinking and belief. At the end of the day, my religious beliefs tell me that only God, or the Spirit, can reveal Him/Itself to an individual. It's not my job to convert people.

 

Very well said. Thank you for sharing. In my own life I am very spiritual with everything I do - and that includes medical practise. Will I try to "convert" patients - no not at all, but my spirituality follows me everywhere like the color of my skin and to ignore that is being fairly niave. Im finding it is hard to please everyone - someone is always upset down the line, but it comes to just being true to yourself.

[Borborygmi]

Very well said. Thank you for sharing. In my own life I am very spiritual with everything I do - and that includes medical practise. Will I try to "convert" patients - no not at all, but my spirituality follows me everywhere like the color of my skin and to ignore that is being fairly niave. Im finding it is hard to please everyone - someone is always upset down the line, but it comes to just being true to yourself.

 

I can appreciate the hardships people of a variety of groups (myself included) face day-to-day in their lives. I still fail to see how overtly discussing your faith in a medical practice serves to help a patient who hasn't approached the subject of their own volition... and at that, there are other trained professionals more qualified to discuss these matters than a physician.

 

I think many of the people in this thread (myself included again) respect that people of many faiths have their own beliefs and that everyone should be able to carry those beliefs. I think the issue lies where instilling or even discussing those beliefs on a very basic level with patients may cause negative outcomes. I think the risk of negative outcomes outweighs positive outcomes greatly in this situation and that discussion of faith as instigated BY the physician potentially jeapordizes the adequate treatment of a proportion of patients.

 

I haven't seen a sound argument in regards to a physician instigating this discussion as of yet in this thread, albeit the topic is interesting. I do see the benefit of discussing this topic with patients who openly approach the subject of faith as being part of their beliefs and values if it serves any mental or emotional benefit during their treatment; however, outside of a very basic discussion, that this topic should certainly be deferred to a more qualified professional (priest, pastor, rabbi, etc. etc.).

 

For example, what happens when people of differing religions to the physician seek treatment? Would you still approach the subject of your own faith? I highly doubt it. This would facilitate absolutely no benefit to the patient. By simply extrapolating this, it seems that approaching the subject of faith first as the physician would only seem to serve some sort of need the physician may have themselves.

[mig174]

As long as you don't do this, I won't advocate for the removal of your medical license (if you ever obtain one, that is).

 

But I won't respect your inane make-believe stories of how the world supposedly began just because you slap the label of "religion" or "culture" on them. They're not even wrong.

[Tango Charlie]

As long as you don't do this, I won't advocate for the removal of your medical license (if you ever obtain one, that is).

 

It's sad how indoctrinated people can be that they see rolling up their sleeves so they can wash their dirty, sweaty arms as a bigger evil than potentially infecting patients with dangerous microorganisms and perhaps even causing their death.

[Mei_Mei_girl]

Good points - I respect all faiths/ religions. I myself am not religious but I am very spriritual - I don't know if other people notice it or not, but if they do, its not something I am willing to change (because its just something that is sort of always with me). If I have patients who aren't spiritual at all etc. that will have no effect on how I treat them because I won't openly say anything etc.

 

I can appreciate the hardships people of a variety of groups (myself included) face day-to-day in their lives. I still fail to see how overtly discussing your faith in a medical practice serves to help a patient who hasn't approached the subject of their own volition... and at that, there are other trained professionals more qualified to discuss these matters than a physician.

 

I think many of the people in this thread (myself included again) respect that people of many faiths have their own beliefs and that everyone should be able to carry those beliefs. I think the issue lies where instilling or even discussing those beliefs on a very basic level with patients may cause negative outcomes. I think the risk of negative outcomes outweighs positive outcomes greatly in this situation and that discussion of faith as instigated BY the physician potentially jeapordizes the adequate treatment of a proportion of patients.

 

I haven't seen a sound argument in regards to a physician instigating this discussion as of yet in this thread, albeit the topic is interesting. I do see the benefit of discussing this topic with patients who openly approach the subject of faith as being part of their beliefs and values if it serves any mental or emotional benefit during their treatment; however, outside of a very basic discussion, that this topic should certainly be deferred to a more qualified professional (priest, pastor, rabbi, etc. etc.).

 

For example, what happens when people of differing religions to the physician seek treatment? Would you still approach the subject of your own faith? I highly doubt it. This would facilitate absolutely no benefit to the patient. By simply extrapolating this, it seems that approaching the subject of faith first as the physician would only seem to serve some sort of need the physician may have themselves.

[isaiah4110]

Interesting post. I'm also a Christian, and like many others have already said, I wouldn't try to impose my beliefs onto others, or use my "authority" as a doctor to convert someone. We need to be respectful and professional.

 

That being said, I believe doctors have every right, just as everyone else, to have the freedom to live accordingly to their faith. If I ever become a surgeon, am I going to have a quick prayer before operating? Yes. If my patient is on their death bed, will I pray for them? Yes. If a patient asks me questions about my faith, will I share? Of course, as long as it's "sharing," not imposing.... there is a fine line.

 

Being a person of faith in no way undermines your ability to think critically or practice evidence-based medicine.