Why are YOU interested in going to the States? (for people going)

[bannie22]

I have trouble seeing how a medical school affiliated with Princess Margaret, Sickkids, Mount Sinai, Toronto General and Toronto Western hospitals is inferior to the top 50 in the US. I mean, sure Harvard, Stanford, the select few at the top with 3-5 times the endowment that UofT has are of course better... but to say UofT = Emory doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I mean, yes you can say ontariostudent is being "patriotic", but you're also being quite defensive of your choice in the US or perhaps justifying your inability to not get into a canadian med school.

 

 

UofT does not equal Canada miggy. =)

 

*friends friends!!!*

[bannie22]

David Sackett is quite godly.

 

Of course the chances of getting into a top school like Harvard vs chances at getting into uoft are much smaller. The competition is insane because you're dealing with a country that has 10 times as many people as Canada.

 

However, I don't think "harder" is the right word to use here.

 

However, at least if we're talking about Ontario,

1) OMSAS is a harder scale than AMCAS

2) after dropping those grades, entering average for undergraduates is still ~3.93 for UofT.

3) US schools, especially private selective schools, look for more than just stats (in general, Duke is an exception). For many of those schools, the goal is to churn out a higher proportion of "leaders", those more likely to be involved with business/research/whatever generates money in med, which can mean potential alumni $$$. GPA says little about how competitive a person is, how much of a leader he is, etc. It's a whole different ballgame of what's considered "difficult" - probably what Harvard is looking for in their class is very different from what, say, Mac/UofT/UWO/Queen's are looking for in theirs. Don't believe me? http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/10/051010crat_atlarge (It's for undergrad, but the same philosophy applies to medical schools at most Ivies).

 

So I think to say it's harder is misrepresenting the issue. If you possess the right qualities, i.e. are a better "fit" for the school, your chances to get in are much higher than if it was completely random.

 

I actually like the American system. Dont you miggy?

 

 

And I agree its not harder to get into Canadian schools. (At least Ontario ones) Ontario schools are based on GPA. However, American schools tend to look for a more well-rounded applicant, and also one that "fits" the school, compared to Ontario schools who would cut anyone with less than an 11 on verbal.

 

Its just what you have. If you have a neat 4.0, and a decent MCAT, you are safe in Canada, but that doesnt mean you will get into a half decent school in the States...

 

Also, I think miggy, that regardless of the scale, people are still on a level playing field so that doesnt really add on to the competitiveness.

 

 

I am not quite sure of the point of the post miggy, but I guess if you get into a school that fits you better, then you would also tend to benefit more from the education right?

Either ways, UofT MD/PhD obviously beats my random-school MD. =p And too bad I'm not the leader-esk H******* material.... yet.

[bannie22]

Btw. THERE IS ONE STUNNINGLY GOOD THING ABOUT CANADA THO. TOTALLY UNRELATED TO MED SCHOOLS OR W/E.

 

IF YOU GO TO ANY OTHER SINGLE-COUNTRY DOMINATED THREAD. AND TELL THEM THEIR COUNTRY IS INFERIOR TO ANOTHER ONE. YOU WILL GET BASHED TO SMITHEREENS.

 

DIFFERENT WITH CANADIANS. THATS WHY I LOVE CANADA.

 

Could also be because this is an Canadian applying to US section... but meh, I will give Canada the benefit of the doubt

 

 

But really, say the inverse of this on SDN, and ur dead.

Or say the inverse of this back in my home country, ur dead too.

 

Nobody is gonna listen or discuss. You are just plain wrong.

 

But yea, I think UofT is great. amazing. but.. really. other than uoft/mcgill/ maybe ubc.. i dont knw abt the rest...

 

(yes miggy, im oso sorry for not being smart enuff for uoftttt forgive mee.... and shud have used ur leet skills to do my psl for me. instead of me staying up till now )

[justletmein]

Breaking news flash for you Chucky: Kentucky has it in their medical training facility for MD students, not residents. Time for Canada to get with the future (re: Danny Williams).

 

Edit: It was in the facility for 1st and 2nd years away from the hospital just FYI.

 

Damn...I can't believe I've been more bitter on PM101 lately.

 

 

Listen, smarta$$.

 

I pay approximately 5000$ CAD a year tuition, which is basically covered by the loans and bursaries i get from the government. We may not have a laparoscopic simulator, but I can deal with that to avoid graduating with 250K in debt.

 

Now... you can go on and on about your technology, fancy hospitals etc in the US but the bottom line is this: YOU are paying for it!!!!!

 

Sorry, but I will be just as good a doctor as you, with or without fancy simulators... only I wont be paying off debts for the next 20 years

 

Sorry you werent accepted here. Hope you enjoy Kentucky.

[keith_015]

Listen, smarta$$.

 

I pay approximately 5000$ CAD a year tuition, which is basically covered by the loans and bursaries i get from the government. We may not have a laparoscopic simulator, but I can deal with that to avoid graduating with 250K in debt.

 

Now... you can go on and on about your technology, fancy hospitals etc in the US but the bottom line is this: YOU are paying for it!!!!!

 

Sorry, but I will be just as good a doctor as you, with or without fancy simulators... only I wont be paying off debts for the next 20 years

 

Sorry you werent accepted here. Hope you enjoy Kentucky.

 

You shouldn't be b1tching and complaining on a board that you obviously have hard feelings to. This is a forum for support and advice for those going or want to go to the US, and your attitude isn't welcome here. Get lost and go study. You are a med student: quit hanging around pm101.

 

But first, I should tell you that you are a very wise medical student who everyone is looking up to. "Oh please justletmein! Tell me if I am getting into medical school or not!". The wise justletmein has told me that I will not be accepted in Canada, so he must know quite a bit! Its just too bad that egos inflate once you begin med school.

 

Oh and if you are soooo concerned about money, you are probably going into the wrong profession.

[NoisyLettuce]

Listen, smarta$$.

 

I pay approximately 5000$ CAD a year tuition, which is basically covered by the loans and bursaries i get from the government. We may not have a laparoscopic simulator, but I can deal with that to avoid graduating with 250K in debt.

 

Now... you can go on and on about your technology, fancy hospitals etc in the US but the bottom line is this: YOU are paying for it!!!!!

 

Sorry, but I will be just as good a doctor as you, with or without fancy simulators... only I wont be paying off debts for the next 20 years

 

Sorry you werent accepted here. Hope you enjoy Kentucky.

 

I would think that by now we are past the point of knowing that med-school in the US is more expensive than med-school in Canada.

 

Just remember though, that there are prices to pay (cutbacks, funding limits, shortages) when medical education is heavily subsidized by the government, as in Canada. Hence, generally speaking, the larger amount of technologies and research opportunities you have access to in the US.

 

I don't know, will you be a better laparoscopic surgeon without a simulator to practice on? Will you be a better radiologist without quick and easy access to advanced MRI technologies? Will you be a better teacher without access to leading psychological educational training? Will you be a better plumber without training on the most cost-effective and cutting-edge plumbing tools?

 

I am definitely not saying that Canada doesn't have the most up-to-date technologies. What I am saying is that there are in fact certain opportunities you have in the US that you might not be able to get in Canada.

 

For me, I applied to the US as a safety, and because I knew that the quality of education there would be excellent. I was initially off-set by the cost, but I think in the end I will be happy with my experiences and knowing that I accomplished my goals.

 

It's nice to know that you won't have debts, Justletmein, but I think you are just being out-right rude when you snidely say things like "Sorry you weren't accepted here. Have fun in Kentucky." We are all future colleagues here.

[trickybox]

I would think that by now we are past the point of knowing that med-school in the US is more expensive than med-school in Canada.

 

Just remember though, that there are prices to pay (cutbacks, funding limits, shortages) when medical education is heavily subsidized by the government, as in Canada. Hence, generally speaking, the larger amount of technologies and research opportunities you have access to in the US.

 

I don't know, will you be a better laparoscopic surgeon without a simulator to practice on? Will you be a better radiologist without quick and easy access to advanced MRI technologies? Will you be a better teacher without access to leading psychological educational training? Will you be a better plumber without training on the most cost-effective and cutting-edge plumbing tools?

 

I am definitely not saying that Canada doesn't have the most up-to-date technologies. What I am saying is that there are in fact certain opportunities you have in the US that you might not be able to get in Canada.

 

For me, I applied to the US as a safety, and because I knew that the quality of education there would be excellent. I was initially off-set by the cost, but I think in the end I will be happy with my experiences and knowing that I accomplished my goals.

 

It's nice to know that you won't have debts, Justletmein, but I think you are just being out-right rude when you snidely say things like "Sorry you weren't accepted here. Have fun in Kentucky." We are all future colleagues here.

 

+1. Nothing like a "supposed" medical student (justletmein) bringing this poll thread down to a childish level. Perhaps it's time to grow up?

 

I totally agree with what Noisy stated. Everyone in Canada KNOWS the high price of American medical schools. We're not debating that. At the same time, most Canadian undergrad students will be applying to the states as a safety, except for those who either did their undergrad in the states, want to move there, or have family there. Keith is simply stating that there exists some technology in the states not available to Canadian medical students (during their undergraduate medical education).

 

As for me, there is one school in the states (I'm on the waitlist) that I would definitely accept over any of my Ontario interviews. I'm willing to take on the extra tuition fees because I felt it was the best fit for me out of any of my Canadian and American interviews, as well as the fact that its residency matchlist (hospitals-wise) was just too impressive to pass up.

[justletmein]

Give me a break.

 

Someone brought up the point that US schools had better technology and therefore that may be a factor in choosing to study in the US.

 

I simply pointed out the fact that you pay for what you get, and that it is obvious that there will be some benefits to paying 40K USD per year.

 

I am NOT telling anyone here whether or not they are getting into med school.

However, when you reply to my post with a childish, sarcastic remark then I will fire back.

 

The bottom line in this discussion is that canadian citizens who choose to study in the US are often (dont deny it) people who have been rejected by canadian schools. American schools are a perfectly acceptable plan B. The students there will make great doctors, as will most canadian grads. BUT don't start BS'ing me that the reason you want to study in Kentucky instead of Toronto is because they have a laparoscopic simulator.

[keith_015]

Some people just don't know when to quit. Tisk tisk.

[justletmein]

Some people just don't know when to quit. Tisk tisk.

 

I made my point. You girls can continue this without me. Please don't respond because I will not be looking at this thread anymore.

[redribbon]

I think I would put technology as one of the last reasons on my list for wanting to go to the States for medical school. If anything, I think my primary reason for going to the States (aside from the fact that I was shut out from Canadian schools, thanks Canada!) is for the residency opportunities. Take a look at the match list from McMaster, Queen's, Western, even U of T and compare it to the match lists from any medical school in the States (even the lower-tiered universities). You would see that the majority (~30-40%) of the Canadian medical graduates in a specific year and class match into FM residencies in Canada, compared to less than 10% of the students in American medical schools matching into FM residencies in a specific year/class. This doesn't mean American medical schools are better than Canadian medical schools, or any sily debate like that, but more of the fact that Canada and the US have a different health care system, different government billing for physicians, different allocation of resources/funds, etc.

 

The States is pretty awesome though.

 

And before the rebutt comes in about how as a Canadian medical graduate you can also go down South and apply for US residencies, yes you can, but in terms of visa/immigration policies/board exams/USMLE headaches, it's much easier if you did your medical school training in the US and then applied for US residency, less tricky business (ie F1-OPT for the win!)

 

 

And going from Canada to the States, there's still a bit of ~culture shock~ AKA more melting pot = USA, mosaic = Canada, but I kinda like the melting pot .... in our medical school, Asians, Indians, Caucasians, Hispanics, African-Americans, whatever you are - we all mix. We all kinda hang out together, there's no segregation of the cultural groups like I saw in my undergrad in Canada.

 

Side note: Canada does have one thing that's very awesome though (before he moved to the States and is now applying for a green card here): Russell Peters! Funny guy.

 

And no offence, but San Francisco > Toronto (yeah that's right, they're both filled with Asians, but SF just does it better for some reason)

[trickybox]

I made my point. You girls can continue this without me. Please don't respond because I will not be looking at this thread anymore.

 

It would seem you started with the foul language. Good riddance.

[Rach]

I want to live in the states again and would choose many US schools over all Canadian schools (with the exception of McGill b/c Montreal is awesome). For me, quality of life is worth the high price tag for US med schools and unless I get into a school like McGill where I would be happy, I'll be glad to head south and pay the tuition.

[redribbon]

I actually like the American system. Dont you miggy?

 

 

And I agree its not harder to get into Canadian schools. (At least Ontario ones) Ontario schools are based on GPA. However, American schools tend to look for a more well-rounded applicant, and also one that "fits" the school, compared to Ontario schools who would cut anyone with less than an 11 on verbal.

 

AGREED! Damn you verbal and your roman numerals. I swear to god I'm going to ACE my USMLE Step 1 just to prove that there's very little correlation between MCAT Verbal and USMLE Step 1 board scores.

 

Grrrr Verbal.

[deeman101]

Hehe. I have a feeling the people showing a lot of blind patriotism on this thread haven't explored the world beyond too much. Reminds me of....those America-f#@k-yea people. I don't really see myself as Canadian, and actually most of my family and even my dad lives in the U.S (not that I see myself as American either, I'm a nomad). If I had a choice I would pick some of the US schools over the Canadian ones. This may seem shallow but to me when US schools show a lot of interest in their interviewee and pays for their parking, gives them a FULL lunch and everything, I kinda have a better feeling about them than a Canadian schools that don't even give courtesy parking.

 

Oh yea, and some things are just BETTER in the US. Universal health care is cool but its not as cool when it comes at the expense of prompt and comprehensive care. (cue **** storm)

[AdamP]

US schools show a lot of interest in their interviewee and pays for their parking, gives them a FULL lunch and everything, I kinda have a better feeling about them than a Canadian schools that don't even give courtesy parking.

 

 

dee

 

please tell me this is sarcasm, and you're not picking schools based on free parking and lunch.

[A-Stark]

Just want to contribute. If I stay in Canada (if offered), quality of schools isn't the most important factor. For me, the US offers programs that Canada does not. Other than NOSM (sorta), is there a program in Canada that offers exclusive or almost exclusive internship in a true rural setting in Canada? I haven't heard of any! Rural med is an important part of medicine in both the US and Canada, yet Canadian schools haven't even come close to addressing this. Bravo US! If admitted in Canada, I will go (like I mention for factors other than quality) yet I will opt to travel to the US for some of my internship.

 

Internship? Are you in residency already? At Dal, you can complete about half of (third-year) clerkship in smaller centres in the Maritimes, not that Halifax is really that big to start with. There will be a "rural week" at the end of first year in the new curriculum, and residency programs in family medicine are available in rural/smaller centres across the country (UBC in Kelowna, for example, and Dal in Sydney, Charlottetown, Saint John, and other places if I recall correctly).

 

Name isn't everything. Do U of T applicants actually match any better than other schools across Canada? I think it can be the uniqueness of the US programs as well as the more sophisticated research programs that will lure people to accept US spots. Oh...don't want to forget that the US pumps in more money to stay up to date in technology and health care in general. Not sure how many Cdn schools will have a laproscopic simulator.

 

How you match in CaRMS is up to you, NOT your school per se. "More sophisticated research programs" is a rather vague comment and applies to only a small number of applicants. I don't know why you think that having a laparoscopic simulator is at all relevant to the choice of med school - residents in any Canadian general surgery program will make use of one, most certainly, but med students? While I'm sure you'll be able to operate the camera during lap-choles and lap-appes (I have), the purpose of a surgery clerkship rotation is NOT to learn how to operate. That's not to say you won't be sent by your residents and staff off to the skills lab to practice suturing and hand-tying - you will - but the notion that med students require especially advanced technology for their education displays a great deal of ignorance about undergraduate medical education. History-taking, physical examination skills, basic procedural skills, learning how to write admission and progress notes, and learning about clinical medicine are what it involves.

 

With regards to free parking and lunch (the latter of which I received at all three very much Canadian schools at which I interviewed), I believe you should ratchet down your sense of entitlement. How much were those admissions fees at the US schools anyhow?

[deeman101]

dee

 

please tell me this is sarcasm, and you're not picking schools based on free parking and lunch.

 

LOL! I was just giving examples. I kinda have a eat-as-much-as-I-can policy at interviews. Especially if I bombed the interview. Cause hell if they're not gonna give me an acceptance I'm gonna take as much food as I can get. In that respect US schools gave me more food. And it kinda peeves me when I have to pay for parking after driving all the way to whatever school. W/e called me spoiled by doing my US interviews first.

[keith_015]

Regular posters in Applying to American Schools: just stop replying and commenting in this thread. Too many people think we should be thinking like them.

[Gitanjali]

+1. Looks like these anti US people want us to apologize to them for heading down souh, it massages their ego. How pathetic is it to log onto a forum for people applying to US schools and bashing them for their choices. I mean srsly guys, get a life..

[A-Stark]

I'm not anti-US. However, picking a school because of technology that is irrelevant to undergraduate medical education is stupid. With respect to research opportunities, well, there won't be quite the same "high profile" locations and people, but I'm not sure that says a whole lot about the quality of actual opportunities.

[A-Stark]

I don't know, will you be a better laparoscopic surgeon without a simulator to practice on? Will you be a better radiologist without quick and easy access to advanced MRI technologies? Will you be a better teacher without access to leading psychological educational training? Will you be a better plumber without training on the most cost-effective and cutting-edge plumbing tools?

 

Medical students are not training to be laparoscopic surgeons or radiologists. Perhaps there is simply a disconnect in philosophy, as my training so far has emphasized the skills required to be a physician and preparation for residency. We become generalists and specialists (or sub-specialists) later. And I'm thinking of writing the USMLE to afford fellowship opportunities in the future; there is really only so much capacity in Canada and the quantity of opportunities in the US is certainly relevant at that stage.

 

But for undergrad medical education? Hardly necessary. I have little doubt that pre-clerkship in the US is more "rigorous", but in the end it's about what students learn and less how they learn it.

[bannie22]

Listen, smarta$$.

 

I pay approximately 5000$ CAD a year tuition, which is basically covered by the loans and bursaries i get from the government. We may not have a laparoscopic simulator, but I can deal with that to avoid graduating with 250K in debt.

 

Now... you can go on and on about your technology, fancy hospitals etc in the US but the bottom line is this: YOU are paying for it!!!!!

 

Sorry, but I will be just as good a doctor as you, with or without fancy simulators... only I wont be paying off debts for the next 20 years

 

Sorry you werent accepted here. Hope you enjoy Kentucky.

 

Sorry, your response reeks of financial jealousy and hate.

[bannie22]

AGREED! Damn you verbal and your roman numerals. I swear to god I'm going to ACE my USMLE Step 1 just to prove that there's very little correlation between MCAT Verbal and USMLE Step 1 board scores.

 

Grrrr Verbal.

 

 

Ribbon.

SF? UCSF??

 

Btw, haha... I think that is already proven.

 

Its BIO->MCAT->PHY or VERB not too sure.

[bannie22]

Hehe. I have a feeling the people showing a lot of blind patriotism on this thread haven't explored the world beyond too much. Reminds me of....those America-f#@k-yea people. I don't really see myself as Canadian, and actually most of my family and even my dad lives in the U.S (not that I see myself as American either, I'm a nomad). If I had a choice I would pick some of the US schools over the Canadian ones. This may seem shallow but to me when US schools show a lot of interest in their interviewee and pays for their parking, gives them a FULL lunch and everything, I kinda have a better feeling about them than a Canadian schools that don't even give courtesy parking.

 

Oh yea, and some things are just BETTER in the US. Universal health care is cool but its not as cool when it comes at the expense of prompt and comprehensive care. (cue **** storm)

 

 

I agree with you a billion times over.

Canadian doctors never seem to want to send me for tests, and for anything from toe sprains, wrist sprains, inflammation of the knee, to just about anything.

 

they give me some tylenol samples and tell me to RICE it. and get some sleep.

 

I dont think I ever had a doctor do something (treatment) to me I didnt arleady know. =.=