OOP cutoff is 3.9!

[David Med]

First off, I think we should all admit that that many of the active members on this website (myself included) make up what most people would call keeners. Most probably have great GPAs, and many surely have GPAs above 3.9. But for those who don't -- don’t be discouraged. This sample of people is unlikely to be representative of the entire cohort of applicants to all the medical schools you’re looking to apply to.

 

Before belittling the concerns of those frustrated by the 3.9 OOP cutoff and calling them bitter, maybe we can take a moment to consider the motivation of the admissions committee in setting the cutoff as high as they did -- I think that therein lies the frustration.

 

For full disclosure, I just want to say that I'm IP, but this news came as a pretty big shock to me too.

 

A quick look at median GPAs of students accepted to American medical schools, as published by the AAMC, is pretty interesting (see http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/advising/downloads/gpamcat.pdf). Here's a sample:

 

Yale: 3.81

Boston University: 3.74

Harvard: 3.87

Johns Hopkins: 3.87

Tufts: 3.69

Stanford: 3.8

Mount Sinai: 3.75

Columbia: 3.77

University of Pennsylvania: 3.82

Brown: 3.76

Georgetown University: 3.69

 

Only one school on that list had a median accepted student GPA of more than 3.9 (Washington University at 3.91).

 

What strikes me here is that these are median values for some of the best universities in the world. That means that half of students admitted had GPAs lower than the above numbers. Now I understand that these values are from the United States, where the med school landscape is different, and that those admitted probably had stellar letters and experience, especially for the Ivy Leagues. But so too do many of the OOP students who applied to McGill and were just told that they wouldn’t be invited for an interview because they didn’t have a 3.9. Apparently Columbia thought that people with grades well below that had something to offer.

 

I can think of no reason for McGill to decide to only invite applicants with a >3.9 GPA for interviews other than trying to save the time it would take to give all the OOP applications proper consideration. I acknowledge the considerable challenge involved in trying to sift through so many autobiographical sketches (or abstracts, since apparently it would take too long to read a proper letter) and all the rest, but in choosing to use the single criteria of GPA as the deciding factor that could prevent good candidates from getting an interview, the admissions committee has demonstrated that they are simply unwilling to take the necessary steps to really choose the best candidates. Surely an isolated GPA, in the absence of consideration to program, school, or the person’s story, cannot be the best predictor of future performance as a doctor. Their decision to use only that is not in the best interest of the applicants or the school.

 

Although there might be more than enough good candidates from the >3.9 group, there are certainly at least a few people with grades slightly below that who deserve an interview. McGill’s claim that they look at the candidate as a whole has not proven to be true here. Of course it’s to be expected that the competition would be fierce for so few OOP spots, and that many, if not most, of the best overall candidates would fall in that >3.9 group. But if McGill really wants to train the best doctors, a more holistic approach in the selection process is absolutely required. The corner-cutting that seems to be going on is just not acceptable.

 

I agree that someone who has a GPA of 3,89 could make a better doctor than someone who have the 3,90 required to pass the cut-off, its important as you said to consider the person as the whole and not based uniquely on grades, but since the competition is high and there are only a few spots for thoses candidates, I really understand the choice that McGill have made.

 

They will have an enough pool of candidates to choose the people they need, as though it may prevent someone with a great potentiel to get in ,they still need to make a cut-off in order to get justice for those who have nicer grades.

 

By the way, great post and I hope you get in where you wish, good luck for this year and congratulations if you're already in:)

[LupeFiasco]

^^^ Friggin + 1 million

 

- Lupe

[igeorgex]

as others have stated before, just because this one medical school has criteria that you do not meet does not mean all hope is lost in the medical school application process. consider UWO, which looks at your two best years (including the current year of study, if applicable) or Queen's with two most recent, or Mac which has less emphasis on MCAT and GPA this year, or UofT which has a weighted GPA and a holistic review.

 

mcgill is one school out of MANY. it sucks to not be considered, but at the end of the day there are other options available. don't give up hope - none of the Ontario schools have even sent invites yet! it only takes one school to interview and accept you... best of luck

[Prion]

McGill’s claim that they look at the candidate as a whole has not proven to be true here. Of course it’s to be expected that the competition would be fierce for so few OOP spots, and that many, if not most, of the best overall candidates would fall in that >3.9 group. But if McGill really wants to train the best doctors, a more holistic approach in the selection process is absolutely required. The corner-cutting that seems to be going on is just not acceptable.

 

I think you have answered your own question here.

 

The fact remains that there are far too few OOP spots and far too many applicants(~1300 applicants for 8 spots ). As much as they'd like to be as holistic as possible, the admission process is simply limited by resource. If they have unlimited resource, it'd be certainly make sense to interview everybody since, theoretically, that's the only way to be perfectly holistic. But since resources are limited, they have to make compromises and rely on the nature of statistics. I would argue that McGill can still strive for a holistic approach. What the 3.9 cut off does is to trim the applicant pool down to a manageable size in order for the holistic approach to be realistically applied. I definitely agree with you that there will be excellent candidates left out in the <3.9 group. But are they arguably *better* than the excellent candidates in the >3.9 group? Even if the chance of finding an excellent candidate in these two groups ARE equal,the fact that there are far more candidates in the <3.9 groups means it's far easier to select from the >3.9 group. From McGill's perspective, the outcome is the same. And let's not forget, the GPA is not just a random parameter. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to get a + 3.9 GPA. It's not as if McGill is trimming the applicant pool based on the letters of the applicants last name, for example.

 

 

Finally, I don't think what McGill did here is any different than the other Canadian medical schools who reserve the majority of their seats to IP applicants. This year, we've seen UBC change its OOP AQ calculation, effectively making it incredibly difficult for any OOPers with a sub 85% average to obtain an interview. Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba have traditionally set very high GPA and MCAT cut off for its out of province pools as well. ALso worth mentioning, these schools all run the MMI interview, which is more expensive than the traditional one. Perhaps this explains in part the difference you mentioned between the US and what we have here.

[future_doc]

Prion, I agree with your analysis and yes, "From McGill's perspective, the outcome is the same." No matter how they slice it, they will select excellent candidates for their med school and in a cost effective and efficient manner. Sure, there are casualties, but that is not their concern. They need to manage their resources efficiently and that is what they are doing. And adcom do not suffer from a guilty conscience, they realize that all OOPs have applied to many other schools, including as IP, and the OOP applicants are throwing their hat in the ring for what is essentially a lottery. Who said life is supposed to be fair.

[Prion]

Prion, I agree with your analysis and yes, "From McGill's perspective, the outcome is the same." No matter how they slice it, they will select excellent candidates for their med school and in a cost effective and efficient manner. Sure, there are casualties, but that is not their concern. They need to manage their resources efficiently and that is what they are doing. And adcom do not suffer from a guilty conscience, they realize that all OOPs have applied to many other schools, including as IP, and the OOP applicants are throwing their hat in the ring for what is essentially a lottery. Who said life is supposed to be fair.

 

Exactly. And I would also reiterate that they are at least not "slicing" it randomly. It would be unfair if, say, they only review applicants who's last name begins with the first 13 letters in the alphabet due to resource constraints. But GPA is not a random variable, it might not be the best predictor of clinical performance, but one does need an incredible amount of hard work and academic aptitude to get there.

[deeman101]

Do you guys really think McGill cares about investing the time and effort to effectively screen 1300 OOP students (NOT from QC) for 8 spots?? There is no way you can go through all 1300 and carefully weigh each one against the 1299 other candidates and see who is the most worthy. And even then with 8 out of 1300 theres no way there will consensus of any sort.

 

EDIT: Almost all the CURRENT OOPs have >3.9 or ballin' MCATs. And that was with an application pool half the size. I'm guessing they just figured it was inevitable that the "final eight" would have a high GPA.

[HBP]

UBC was even worse. You essentially needed a 90% average (which for all intents and purposes is very close to a 4.0). Not surprised.

[masaraksh]

Do you guys really think McGill cares about investing the time and effort to effectively screen 1300 OOP students (NOT from QC) for 8 spots?? There is no way you can go through all 1300 and carefully weigh each one against the 1299 other candidates and see who is the most worthy. And even then with 8 out of 1300 theres no way there will consensus of any sort.

 

EDIT: Almost all the CURRENT OOPs have >3.9 or ballin' MCATs. And that was with an application pool half the size. I'm guessing they just figured it was inevitable that the "final eight" would have a high GPA.

 

I thought that it is 1300 applicants for both international and OOP. but with those numbers your point's still valid. I agree, there is no possible way they screen through everyone one by one like that.

[future_doc]

This is the 1st cycle where MCAT need not be a factor for OOPs and this too inflated the number of applicants. Next year, there will be considerably less OOP applicants for McGill to deal with. It would seem that this year McGill made a bonanza of money in OOP application fees w/o really having to work for in reviewing most of the applications.

[masaraksh]

This is the 1st cycle where MCAT need not be a factor for OOPs and this too inflated the number of applicants. Next year, there will be considerably less OOP applicants for McGill to deal with. It would seem that this year McGill made a bonanza of money in OOP application fees w/o really having to work for in reviewing most of the applications.

 

1300 applicants * ~ $100 per app = 130k

 

I don't think thats exactly a "bonanza" of money for a school/faculty that big

[MedPen]

1300 applicants * ~ $100 per app = 130k

 

I don't think thats exactly a "bonanza" of money for a school/faculty that big

 

130k is 130k. Doesn't matter if your operating budget is 35k or 350k, an extra 130k is significant. That being said, I am not convinced McGill's primary goal was to make extra money by not announcing a stricter cutoff off the bat. McGill may be many things but it is not usually outright greedy: I would assume that perhaps they either grossly underestimated the number of people who would apply based on the removal of the MCAT requirement or they were curious about how many people would apply and didn't change the cutoff as an experiments of sorts.

[future_doc]

MedPen, I agree that greed was not the motive. It is still a windfall and they ain't returning this significant amount of money.

[MedPen]

MedPen, I agree that greed was not the motive. It is still a windfall and they ain't returning this significant amount of money.

 

I don't think they could return the money. It would set a bad precedant and applicants in subsequent years could start asking for refunds on the basis that "they weren't properly informed of the requirements". What is done is done. It now remains to be seen what the IP cutoff, if any, will be.

[future_doc]

Yes, of course, but it gottas add insult to injury.

[deeman101]

130k is nothing when the med school works in the millions and probably much more. Each doctor that comes to lecture (which most of ours are by doctors that specialize in that field) gets paid $$$$. Each time they lead a small group, $$$$. Running anatomy labs, web infrastructure, THE SIMULATION CENTER, etc. all cost way more than one would think. Heck the med student organization itself has a budget that is close or more than $1 million / yr! Most large med schools are like that. Besides McGill has some of the lowest application fees.

[MedPen]

http://bit.ly/gJa1xp

 

McGill's new tweet detailing how they decide whom to interview and also what the final breakdown for admission is (80-20 MMI and personal narrative).

[future_doc]

Very interesting. GPA gets you past the gate, presumably with good ECs/volunteering/LORs and once inside, it is all up to you, mainly on the date of interviewwith just 20% for narrative. We are in the midst of an evolution or revolution of the admissions process across Canada it seems.

[MedPen]

Very interesting. GPA gets you past the gate, presumably with good ECs/volunteering/LORs and once inside, it is all up to you, mainly on the date of interviewwith just 20% for narrative. We are in the midst of an evolution or revolution of the admissions process across Canada it seems.

 

I have to admit that I quite like the idea of the GPA just being a door opener. In the end, it shouldn't matter whether you had a 3.85 or a 3.89 but it should matter whether you can effectively communicate with others or if you have empathy, and I think the MMI is the best tool we have to assess that.

[Organeer]

I have to admit that I quite like the idea of the GPA just being a door opener. In the end, it shouldn't matter whether you had a 3.85 or a 3.89 but it should matter whether you can effectively communicate with others or if you have empathy, and I think the MMI is the best tool we have to assess that.

 

I'm going to be witty

 

Unless...of course...you're OOP and you have a 3.89...It doesn't matter how well you communicate XD

[thatonekid]

Yikes, 80% MMI!

That's not surprising. Quite a few schools have acceptance based on 100% (or close to that) interview score.

[MedPen]

I'm going to be witty

 

Unless...of course...you're OOP and you have a 3.89...It doesn't matter how well you communicate XD

 

It's funny cuz it's true...

[Organeer]

It's funny cuz it's true...

 

you set me up for this one...

 

Unless...of course...you're OOP and you have a 3.89...It would be true, but not very funny at all.

[MedPen]

you set me up for this one...

 

Unless...of course...you're OOP and you have a 3.89...It would be true, but not very funny at all.

 

Nope, I'm IP but I know what it feels like to miss the cutoff by a very small amount. Happened to me after cegep, where I missed the interview cutoffs for the french schools by around 0.02. It sucked.

[confused007]

This is so depressing.. 0.01 away from being considered?