IMG positions this year

[DubZteR]

Any Cardiac surgery and Rad Onc positions for IMGs this year? None were offered in previous years for CS, and I heard this year they canceled Rad Onc for IMGs. Will there be any offered in the future, say in 2-3 years?

 

Unfortunately there will also be fewer CMG spots in addition to the no IMG spots in rad onc for the upcoming 2012 match and per our prog director, the IMG issue will be revisited with other rad onc program directors in a couple of yrs.

 

However, the overall job market for rad onc in Canada is decent right now compared to many other specialties and with rising demand and fewer training spots, I suspect there will be a shortage in the upcoming years. Each year, there are a few graduates from Canada who migrate to the US where the job market is excellent and the pay is highly lucrative.

[Gavanshir]

To get back to the topic..

 

There were some good matches for Caribbean IMGs in Canada this year: ophthalmology, ortho surgery, radiology, dermatology.. If you are truly committed, keep making yourself more competitive and there is hope.

[DubZteR]

To get back to the topic..

 

There were some good matches for Caribbean IMGs in Canada this year: ophthalmology, ortho surgery, radiology, dermatology.. If you are truly committed, keep making yourself more competitive and there is hope.

 

But the point the OP was trying to make was that there is no hope for specialties where there are no IMG spots available.

[DubZteR]

Going to med school abroad as a Canadian will no doubt make it harder to come back to match to certain specialties but at the same time going to an LCME med school should not be a pre-req in order to apply for residency spots in some of these fields which is the unfortunate reality it has become.

[cardiomegaly]

Because as levathian said above, Canada shouldn't go around training the world's doctors, it is only obligated to train their Canadian doctors. Plus, Canadians have the right to go back to Canada, and under the charter or rights, they are entitled to work and live anywhere they want (RoS contracts go against that).

 

That's a fairly ridiculous statement. Even Canadian doctors are not "entitled to work and live anywhere they want" - they go where they can get a freaking job!! There are cardiac surgery fellows who have been doing PhDs and fellowships for years because they can't find a job anywhere. Orthopedic surgeons who do locums constantly despite long wait times for hip replacements because they cannot find a job in a city that offers then consistent OR time. Just because they are Canadian does not entitle them to an unlimited choice of jobs. You make a decision on a specialty knowing very well the state of the job market, just as you make a decision on leaving Canada for medical school knowing the reality of trying to come back.

 

Yes, there are a select number of very qualified individuals who tried hard to gain admission to Canadian schools and eventually head to to international schools. But there is always the option of the US, where you can still match first round. And there are many more individuals gain admission to these international schools who would honestly, never make it into medical school here. It is expensive to train residents, and they barely have enough funding and spots (in terms of properly educating their residents with enough clinical experience) to train Canadian grads. In Alberta, if you look at the current number of residency spots and the number of medical students that will graduate in 2 years, we do not have enough residency spots for medical students. The government is sweating hard to create spots now.

[Handsome88]

To get back to the topic..

 

There were some good matches for Caribbean IMGs in Canada this year: ophthalmology, ortho surgery, radiology, dermatology.. If you are truly committed, keep making yourself more competitive and there is hope.

 

Do you seriously think that these people just simply applied and matched into these residencies? That would be very naive to think so...

For example, the person who matched into optho has graduated 3 years ago from SGU, and did THREE YEARS of research in HARVARD. The guy who matched into derm is a PHD in pharmacology and physiology. These are not your typical applicants. I wouldn't even think of doing that, for me it's just not worth it.

Also Ortho surg is not as hard as you might think, in fact from what many people have been telling me, it is easier to get into than IM now.

[Gavanshir]

Do you seriously think that these people just simply applied and matched into these residencies? That would be very naive to think so...

For example, the person who matched into optho has graduated 3 years ago from SGU, and did THREE YEARS of research in HARVARD. The guy who matched into derm is a PHD in pharmacology and physiology. These are not your typical applicants. I wouldn't even think of doing that, for me it's just not worth it.

Also Ortho surg is not as hard as you might think, in fact from what many people have been telling me, it is easier to get into than IM now.

 

No, that's why I said "keep making yourself more competitive".

 

Also, I believe he did 2 years of research..

[leviathan]

But the point the OP was trying to make was that there is no hope for specialties where there are no IMG spots available.

That's not Canada's job to offer training in every specialty to graduates of non-Canadian schools. Imagine you're a Canadian graduate who only has the ability to apply to 10 training positions, and you have to now compete against international students who get access to their own country's spots AND yours? How would that be fair?

 

As it stands right now, Canada is offering additional funding for IMG training which doesn't lower the residency pool for Canadian grads. In return for providing funding for these spots the government requires you to do a return of service. Now I can definitely argue that a return of service is not fair when we have funded 100% of our education out of our own pockets , but the fact that you don't have IMG funding for every specialty is not something you should expect Canada to do if they don't have any additional demand for those specialties that Canadian students can't meet. In my opinion we should feel fortunate that there are spots available in competitive specialties like derm and ophtho which would have no trouble being filled by local grads.

[MarathonRunner]

Ummm...your charter rights are not being violated here. You still have the right to work and live anywhere in the country you want. That doesn't mean that you have a charter right to work the job and specialty you want to work where you want to work it. Several years ago I was offered a job which would have required me to work in a specific location for a specific period of time. That did not violate my rights because I had every right to not accept the job. Many jobs do this - the OPP for example.

 

I agree with this 100%! There are many jobs in Canada where you aren't just allowed to live and work where you want to. For example, in the Canadian Forces, you generally have to go where you are posted. Sure, you can talk to your career manager and try to get a posting where you want, but the reality is that there are so many positions that need to be filled, and so you go where you are needed. Similarly, plenty of gals and guys in the Canadian Forces would make great unit Commanding Officers, but guess what? There are only so many units in need of COs, so some highly qualified candidates won't get a chance (just like in medicine!)

 

The RCMP also sends people where they are needed. Sure, some members stay in the same city or town their entire career, but those are often members without lofty career aspirations. Those who want to move up the career ladder go where they are needed.

 

Heck, even a place like Parks Canada only hires people where they are needed. If you want to be a park ranger, or a nature interpreter, or whatever, you go where you are needed. I had one neighbour in Ottawa who wanted to be back "in the field" in a National Park, but was doing his "penance" at Parks Canada's head office in Hull, because that's where they needed someone with his skills.

 

Yes, it is a shame that so many Canadians have to go overseas to pursue their dreams of becoming a doctor, but they should do so with their eyes wide open that they may never be able to practice medicine in Canada. The fact is that there are only so many positions in Canadian medical schools, and those that don't get in have to face up to the realities of that situation. Just like not every officer in the Canadian Forces who wants to be a CO will have the chance to become a Commanding Officer, not every pre-med who wants to become a doctor will have a chance to attend a Canadian medical school. That's reality. Those that go overseas have to accept that reality, or choose another health-care profession that will allow them to live and work where they want in Canada (which is why many of us had back-up plans to do PT, OT, dietetics, etc. if we didn't make it into a Canadian or U.S. medical school).

[bloh]

Ugh this thread is ridiculous. Not even CMGs are entitled to anything. There's a huge number of IMG that would be willing to obtain a residency spot in Canada and if we catered to all of them, our own graduates would suffer.

 

I realize that there's a certain amount of luck involved in getting into medical schools. If you're not willing to try to get in multiple times (to minimize the luck factor), then you don't deserve to get in. If after multiple times, you still can't get into a canadian schools then you are free to go to an international school. The only thing you are entitled to at that point is to fight for the few residency spots available and set aside to IMGs. If you happen to be one of the very qualified but unlucky ones, then you should shine here and those spots will be yours. If you can't raise yourself above the masses, then Canada rightfully doesn't want or need you. I don't see a problem in this.

[Guest copacetic]

this thread is quickly sliding into the abyss of irrelevance

[leviathan]

Canadians that go to med school abroad (for example in Australia) are often caught between a rock and a hard place when they finish because they don't qualify for their country of training's internship spots since these are reserved for said nationals.

Sure, but nobody made those Canadians go study abroad.

 

.

 

In the end however, Canadians should be picking our future dermatologists, radiation oncologists, plastic surgeons etc .. based on Canadian citizens who will be the best fit for the specialty, and who will be able to best take care of our citizens ....... not based on where they went to medical school.

That's true, but I guarantee you that you will probably never see an IMG match into specialties the way they are right now if they start competing with CMGs for those spots. The way they are separated right now actually gives them a chance at matching into a spot.

[BlackJack]

I just find it interesting that Saudi residents can buy their own spots through their government's funding, but no other applicant, CMG or otherwise, can finance their own residency...kind of a double-standard.

[Handsome88]

Sure, but nobody made those Canadians go study abroad.

 

 

That's true, but I guarantee you that you will probably never see an IMG match into specialties the way they are right now if they start competing with CMGs for those spots. The way they are separated right now actually gives them a chance at matching into a spot.

 

I find this very strange. "No body made those Canadians go study abroad". What made you go to Saba?

 

I don't understand why they would be at a disadvantage when competing with CMGs... From what I can tell, the IMG Internal Medicine applicant often has a stronger application than a CMG IM applicant (because an IM spot for an IMG is like a Plastics spot for the CMG...tough to get).

[Handsome88]

I just find it interesting that Saudi residents can buy their own spots through their government's funding, but no other applicant, CMG or otherwise, can finance their own residency...kind of a double-standard.

 

Funding a residency needs about 100k+ for each year. How do you expect CMGs or IMGs (who have 200k-300k debt already) finance that?

 

Saudi gov't does this for the top students in the kingdom, with a RoS contract too. However, these students can actually pick their specialty of choice without competition (2 of them are now in Neurosurg). Canada does the same with IMGs, but there is cut-throat competition. I think having competition is better to create better doctors, but the competition that IMGs have to go through is way over-board. It would be slightly better if they increased the spots available and having greater diversity, allowing them to apply to Cardiac Sx for example, or giving them more than 1 ENT spot. IM this year had about 500 applicants, for ~30 positions (many of those don't allow sub-specialization! And some are in french institutions, that leaves you with ~20 if you are English speaking wishing to sub-specialize). Next year the cohort of IMGs is expected to double! What is Canada doing for those Canadians? Nothing... In fact I'm afraid they might decrease or flat-line the IMG spots.

 

I'm not saying they should make it as 'easy' as it is for CMGs. But this is just ridiculous in my opinion... Canada has shortage of doctors, and when you have 2,000 applicants to FM and only 120 positions, well then there is a problem!

[Lactic Folly]

I don't understand why they would be at a disadvantage when competing with CMGs... From what I can tell, the IMG Internal Medicine applicant often has a stronger application than a CMG IM applicant (because an IM spot for an IMG is like a Plastics spot for the CMG...tough to get).

 

I think leviathan is suggesting that programs may consider applicants from international schools differently from those who have attended a Canadian/US medical school, regardless of the other strengths of their applications. Rightly or wrongly, it is a criterion that can be used to filter one's list when faced with a large number of applications...

[leviathan]

I find this very strange. "No body made those Canadians go study abroad". What made you go to Saba?

I just told you that nobody made them study abroad. Why would you think somebody made me go to Saba? I made that decision on my own, hence I don't expect Canada to guarantee me or any other IMG a residency spot and don't think that is their job. When I apply to CaRMS next year, I will hope for the best and will be putting a strong application forward. Hopefully things will work out but it will never be their responsibility to give me a spot; I have to earn that on my own. Having this inflated sense of entitlement as an IMG is not going to earn you many friends and reflects poorly on other IMGs who are more realistic.

 

I don't understand why they would be at a disadvantage when competing with CMGs... From what I can tell, the IMG Internal Medicine applicant often has a stronger application than a CMG IM applicant (because an IM spot for an IMG is like a Plastics spot for the CMG...tough to get).

It would be very rare that a Canadian residency program would accept an IMG over a Canadian student regardless of how good that IMG was or how weak the Canadian student was. It surely will happen, but the number of times it would happen is probably less than the number of spots IMGs currently are guaranteed every year in the IMG stream.

[Handsome88]

I think leviathan is suggesting that programs may consider applicants from international schools differently from those who have attended a Canadian/US medical school, regardless of the other strengths of their applications. Rightly or wrongly, it is a criterion that can be used to filter one's list when faced with a large number of applications...

 

But I thought programs use a "point system" when reviewing applications. Like grading the application out of 100, where Boards have 20 points, LORs 20 points, research, ECs...etc. (I didn't go through the match yet but that's what I heard from some people. They could just allocate a specific (appropriate) number of points for the school of graduation.

[Lactic Folly]

Reviewing and assigning points to each application takes time and effort - the point of a filter is to cut down on the number of applications that need to be reviewed, especially when there are already many more qualified local applicants than can be interviewed.

[bloh]

I'm not saying they should make it as 'easy' as it is for CMGs. But this is just ridiculous in my opinion... Canada has shortage of doctors, and when you have 2,000 applicants to FM and only 120 positions, well then there is a problem!

 

For the IMGs, not Canada. Once again, no one forced you to be an IMG. There is approximately 9% of residency spots reserved for IMGs. That is plenty and it encourages competition among candidates such that Canada trains the best of the best. I don't think anyone cares how many IMGs there are. If it was easier to make it as an IMG, we would easily have a corresponding higher number of people that immigrate in hope of getting a spot or people that go abroad to study.

[HBP]

Handsome88... you ought to have applied a second time around in Canada/US. Why so eager to jump ship so fast considering you had just graduated...

[ddocs]

As a Canadian citizen who chose to do complete my medical degree in Britain, I do not think Canada should necessarily provide me with a residency position. I think the onus is on the person to fully appreciate the potential challenges and pitfalls of studying medicine outside of North America before making the decision to go. Obtaining a residency position in CaRMs is no easy task and probably includes a bit of luck and both Canadians studying abroad and CMGs need to prepare for the match though the vast majority of CMGs do obtain some kind of position in CaRMs versus IMGs. Funding and system capacity is probably the main issue for having a select number of IMG spots in CaRMs. It is unfortunate, in my opinion, that valuable spots are being bought by countries like Saudi Arabia for their trainees as these spots could potentially be funded by the provinces for either CMGs or IMGs.

 

But I don't think IMGs should be frowned or looked down upon. In my opinion, the term International Medical Graduate (IMG) is relative. If a Canadian medical graduate went to Britain to train/practice medicine, they would be viewed as an IMG and as I'm coming back to Ontario for residency this July and as I've studied in Britain, I'm viewed as an IMG. Because of information technology and globalization, medicine in my opinion, is very global and interconnected. Doctors and scientists around the world share ideas and research on a regular basis and simply because the research or medical talent isn't from an LCME accredited North American institution does not mean it is rubbish. As an IMG educated in Britain, I do not feel inferior to a Canadian medical graduate. In fact, I appreciated my time spent in the British health care system as there are many good things both countries can learn from each other and I think I've received good education from the UK.

 

What a lot of people probably don't realize is a good portion of Canadian doctors are IMGs, in fact, roughly 21.7% according to this 2009 Canadian Journal of Rural Medicine journal (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:J05r2VU4IzAJ:prismadmin.cma.ca/multimedia/staticContent/HTML/N0/l2/cjrm/vol-14/issue-3/pdf/pg120.pdf+25%25+of+canadian+doctors+are+international&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESirzYv-UhpFXXMM_uAb3rfJomtn-uhyce1JQbrSyLgCpKPLkw-9Tw5SLvsdCh0342V6neezTTjAgnzLwyv988P-2q_WRBC_HqJfteL4WkXKKkKFQ6p7GrC8TehsP5pK-_4pRg3U&sig=AHIEtbQoOXgS6i6pyGOy_qCyU_BcQSJifw )

Traditionally, IMGs have trained in countries like Britain and Ireland.

 

I think an under-appreciated thing for Canadians looking to go abroad is studying in a British medical school. Those graduating from schools in Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Eastern Europe and the Carribean have a harder chance of obtaining postgraduate training positions in the country where they completed their medical education either because of a shortage of spots for that country's own citizens or because no mature system actually exists e.g. the Carribean. In Britain, at the current moment, students graduating from a British medical school, irrespective of their citizenship, are guaranteed 2 years of postgraduate training in what is known as the Foundation Programme. As a British graduate, I did not apply to CaRMs in my final year of medical school but did a few months in the Foundation Programme before applying to the CaRMS 2011 round and I'll be coming back home this July to start my IM residency. I think those looking to go abroad should seriously consider Britain as the 2 years of postgrad training does offer a bit of peace of mind.

[sarakj]

Put yourself in their shoes. Many of these people have also killed themselves making themselves competitive yet found themselves having to go study abroad. You will not return "easily and on equal footing" without having equal academic merit as CMGs, that is where objective admission process comes into play (Canadian Boards, grades...etc). Someone who has a 410 in Canadian boards but is from Carib is still >>>> than a CMG who has a 300.

 

Being a good physicain is way more than your score in LMCC exams.. Most of the Canadian grads do not even touch their books before sitting for that exam! You have to understand that the whole residency process is based on canadian graduates. You stay and study here and u r almost guarantee to have a residency spot here. When u decide to become an IMG you WILL close many windows of opportunity in choosing your career choice. But still, there are a few IMGs every year matching to competetive spots.. So having an expectation beyond that is not logical!!!

[leviathan]

I wouldn't say it's fair for those that had to go through several application cycles to get into Canada to find themselves on equal footing with another IMG who went abroad to get on with their lives.

Agreed 100%! I think it's completely untrue and unfair to say IMGs took the easy route (which I do hear from people and not implying you were saying that), BUT I think it's fair to say that CMGs should always have first pick at their residency choices before IMGs.

[sarakj]

Agreed 100%! I think it's completely untrue and unfair to say IMGs took the easy route (which I do hear from people and not implying you were saying that), BUT I think it's fair to say that CMGs should always have first pick at their residency choices before IMGs.

 

With this attitude u will get what u want in the future. Work hard, be nice to people around you and don't show off as super keen student. To tell u the truth, I think canadain studying abroad have more chance of getting what they like.. This from the ranking process from a few competitive residencies.. There is always hope..

Sarakj