IMG positions this year

[cardiomegaly]

I study in Europe and European citizens seem to all (or lets say over 95%) have a position ready for them after they graduate, where Canadians studying there (who happen to be in the top 10% of their class all the time) only get the left over scraps like hyenas. Same with Australia, US, Singapore, India, Hong Kong...etc. Why Canada doesn't? And they do have doctor shortages!

 

No offense....If you're top 10% of your class and you excel, why didn't those students give Canada one more shot?

 

And I don't believe for 1 second that you need to have >3.9+ GPA to get into medical school. This forum is living proof to that. Look how many people have nontraditional success stories that show determination and perseverance.

 

The CSA report from CaRMs (http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf)

Page 17:

 

27% of CSAs did NOT apply to Canada, not even once.

37% of CSAs applied to Canada once

24% of CSAs applied to Canada twice

and only 10% of CSAs applied to Canada 3+ times.

 

That means >50% of CSAs did not give Canada more than one application cycle.

 

Yet 78% of them said their reason for attending an international medical school was the inability to obtain a place in a Canadian medical school. Knowing my friends in medical school, a good chunk get in on their first try, and an equally sized chunk took 2+ efforts.

 

I just don't see how it would be fair to open Canadian funded residency spots intended for Canadian medical graduates to any medical student who trained somewhere in this world. We want high quality doctors. We don't need to have the highest board scores (like someone said, high MCAT = best doctor? doubtful) or the most fancifully written reference letters. We need people who are passionate, well trained, and will serve their country and their patients well. I think most Canadian medical graduates fit this bill.

[Mourning Cloak]

As mentioned above, they are only protecting their own *graduates* and not their citizens. Why?

 

Because . . . .

 

The Canadian government has an obligation to canadian citizens who trained in Canadian medical schools

 

and

 

there are much more pressing policy concerns in health care and other areas than developing ways of helping the career aspirations of Canadian citizens who choose to attend non-LCME-accreditated medical schools.

 

Consider this scenario:

Student X: European studying in Canada/US

Student Y: Canadian studying in Europe

 

Student X applies to Europe while Student Y applies to both Canada and Europe for residency. Student X gets ranked before Student Y in Europe (solely because X is has European citizenship from his Grandparent) and thus Student Y goes unmatched in Europe. Student Y also goes unmatched in Canada because of having <10-5% chance of matching in his/her desired 1st choice specialty. Student Y (Canadian) becomes a taxi-driver in Canada, or applies to Family Med (or IM if lucky) in the US, only to spend more years in "exile" away from family and home and spend the next 10-20 years of his life paying back his 350k Debt.

 

This is why going abroad for medicine is a risk. If you want an (almost) guarantee, keep at it until you get into a Canadian medical school.

 

NB:

 

>50% of CSAs did not give Canada more than one application cycle. Yet 78% of them said their reason for attending an international medical school was the inability to obtain a place in a Canadian medical school.

 

Canada can't be responsible for everyone who doesn't get into medical school in this country and decides to take an end-run through Europe or Australia or wherever - the resources simply aren't there. If you don't jump through the hoops of the Canadian system, then you're on your own.

[staradmiral]

What would happen if the rule suddenly changes, and every Canadian, according to the post here, no matter where they graduate in the world, can apply to resident in Canada. It is unfair to someone like LostLamb (she probably becomes famous after this), who apply to medicine for 5 years and finally get in this year, suddenly find herself compete with all the Canadian medical students all over the world for the same resident spot? She spent five year to fulfil her dream, because she knows if she gets into a medical school in Canada, she will become a doctor. It is unfair because someone, I am not saying less smarter, thinks the rule should be changed now they are IMG, and wants to go back to Canada for a resident spot. According to the them, the rule should be changed because they spend a fortune getting educated in foregin country.

 

I think if your dedicated to being a doctor then you'll go for it, no matter where your path takes you. 5 years, that's a lot of wasted time, that's 5 years more you could of been working as a doctor rather than still being a premed. What was done during that time? a masters? or phD? if so then that's more tax payer money going towards a degree that went unused and was merely a stepping stone.

 

Do you ever think of the ridiculous amount of both taxpayer and personal money that is lost on students who use masters, phds, pharmacy school, etc as a step stone to medicine. do you know how pissed off UofT pharmacy school is at the number of students who hop over.

 

Medicine takes a long time, and many people wanna do other things like start a family after becoming a doctor and don't really have time to waste. I know people who went to europe directly after high school into a 6 year MD program rather than spending 8 years in Canada's system (how i wish canada would use the european system, where one can apply to w/e career field they want, law, med, dentistry, immediately after grade 12). Yeah it's harder to come back, but you can always do a residency in the US which is much more IMG friendly and then just hop over to Canada once residency is complete, write board exams and get to work right away, or just stay in the US, canada's loss.

[leviathan]

I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. Handsome88 is very bitter and just needs to come to terms with the decision that he chose of his own free will. As a future IMG I'm a bit embarrassed by his posts and I hope his thoughts and comments don't reflect poorly on the rest of us. I think the vast majority of us fully accept that we are not owed anything by the Canadian government and don't expect anything after completing our training.

 

As for the comment about CSAs only applying once or twice: There are always examples of people who have applied 5 years in a row before gaining admission, but I know the majority of students here making judgments got in on their first or second try. I am sure the majority of you would not try 5 years in a row when you could have already been done medical school by that point. As long as anyone who decides to forfeit their chances at home is accepting of the consequences and limitations of attending an international school, then I don't think there is a problem with it. When people start complaining that it's "not fair" then I start to get embarrassed. Life isn't fair, and if you're attending medical school you should be old enough and mature enough to know this by now.

[leviathan]

I think if your dedicated to being a doctor then you'll go for it, no matter where your path takes you. 5 years, that's a lot of wasted time, that's 5 years more you could of been working as a doctor rather than still being a premed. What was done during that time? a masters? or phD? if so then that's more tax payer money going towards a degree that went unused and was merely a stepping stone.

 

Do you ever think of the ridiculous amount of both taxpayer and personal money that is lost on students who use masters, phds, pharmacy school, etc as a step stone to medicine. do you know how pissed off UofT pharmacy school is at the number of students who hop over.

 

Medicine takes a long time, and many people wanna do other things like start a family after becoming a doctor and don't really have time to waste. I know people who went to europe directly after high school into a 6 year MD program rather than spending 8 years in Canada's system (how i wish canada would use the european system, where one can apply to w/e career field they want, law, med, dentistry, immediately after grade 12). Yeah it's harder to come back, but you can always do a residency in the US which is much more IMG friendly and then just hop over to Canada once residency is complete, write board exams and get to work right away, or just stay in the US, canada's loss.

 

Great post. I don't have a problem at all that IMGs are shafted in the match process in favour of Canadian grads. I do have a problem with the fact that Canada is short on physicians and has a large supply of well trained physicians that could address that shortage if they simply increased the number of residency positions. At the end of the day, it's their loss when CSAs do their training in the US and end up relocating there permanently, but it's just really unfortunate.

[staradmiral]

Great post. I don't have a problem at all that IMGs are shafted in the match process in favour of Canadian grads. I do have a problem with the fact that Canada is short on physicians and has a large supply of well trained physicians that could address that shortage if they simply increased the number of residency positions. At the end of the day, it's their loss when CSAs do their training in the US and end up relocating there permanently, but it's just really unfortunate.

 

its not just residency positions. Many fully trained doctors with fully completed residences are turned down by Canada's boards. and i don't mean they were trained in India, i mean trained in the US or UK and they work in the US or UK yet somehow they are not qualified to be canadian doctors. The canadian medical system is one of the most 'elitist' in the world, your essentially inferior if you weren't trained in canada. and if canada does let you in, they stick you in Northern Ontario or similar area.

 

what do you mean you don;t have a problem with IMGs being shafted? If your in surgery and you find out your doctor was not the best applicant and someone better could be doing your surgery, that doesn't phase you at all? jobs in any field should be given to the best applicant canadian graduate or not. So many businesses fail because they hired family members rather than more qualified people who could actually move the business forward. I do not state that IMG's should be favoured. i speak for equal oppurtunity and fair competition. may the best applicant win.

[EoE]

I do have a problem with the fact that Canada is short on physicians and has a large supply of well trained physicians that could address that shortage if they simply increased the number of residency positions.

 

This is a common misconception. The residents I work with at an Ontario school are actually asking/lobbying for MORE call because they get 1 or 2 nights a month! This is because the residency spots have been increased to the max. It is not like residents are in a classroom where you can just add more seats. Residents need the opportunity to learn their craft before graduating. There are only so many patients. I get the impression that the situation is getting bad... ie residents in some programs graduating with a lot less experience than in years past. I have heard about certain residents at other schools asking for more call as well.

[gb35]

I also think the degree to which we are actually experiencing a doctor shortage is debatable... I'm not saying which side of the debate I am on, just that there exists a debate.

[thehumanmacbook]

what do you mean you don;t have a problem with IMGs being shafted? If your in surgery and you find out your doctor was not the best applicant and someone better could be doing your surgery, that doesn't phase you at all? jobs in any field should be given to the best applicant canadian graduate or not. So many businesses fail because they hired family members rather than more qualified people who could actually move the business forward. I do not state that IMG's should be favoured. i speak for equal oppurtunity and fair competition. may the best applicant win.

 

Doesn't happen here. Just from the med application system alone there is a geographical bias - look at SWOMEN, Francophone, Rural Context, etc. They want individuals who are from their community who are more familiar with that region of practice (be it Northern Ontario or anywhere else), the culture, and Canadian trained. There really is no such thing as "may the best applicant win" because a) it's hard to distinguish on paper and communities want geographical representation from their own members, especially considering that many areas in the north and rural are underserved. It's more of a service industry with homeland policies to abide by than just selection based on qualification.

 

So no....they wouldn't care if he wasn't the best surgeon....only if he were trained in a recognizable Canadian institution and if he could do the surgery right.

[Mourning Cloak]

. . . if they simply increased the number of residency positions.

 

As always, the problem is there is no money for this.

 

 

Many fully trained doctors with fully completed residences are turned down by Canada's boards.

 

If I fully complete my residency but don't pass my Royal College exams, I can't practice either.

 

Merely completing a residency is NOT enough to get a license to practice. Generally speaking, you need to pass the Royal College exams in your specialty.

[ddocs]

Totally concur with Leviathan. Canadians deciding to go outside of Canada for medical school should and the vast majority do know that there is a real inherent risk that they are unable to obtain a coveted CaRMs position. The federal and provincial governments would never allow anyone who has a medical degree in the world to compete equally with CMGs for residency positions, whether it be based on merit etc. This notion is absolutely absurd. Countries will almost always have an inherent bias towards their own. Take Manitoba for example, even though it allows CMGs and IMGs to compete equally, I'd be very surprised to see if it allocates a large proportion of its residency spots to IMGs and not accept UofManitoba/other Canadian schools' graduates.

 

Being an IMG does not mean you are inferior in training to a CMG as may be sometimes thought. In my opinion, it means that unless you do extra work to learn and adapt to the Canadian system, you would be at a disadvantage for students who studied in Canada.

 

I agree with Alastriss's post that CanMED roles are drilled into CMGs. One cannot expect non Canadian schools to adopt all of the CanMED roles into their curriculum. For example, I went to a school in Britain. My medical school had trained me to practice medicine in the UK based on British principles NOT on Canadian medical principles, though they may have similarities.

 

I had to learn the "Canadian way" for my electives in Canada and residency interviews. Everyone knows being a doctor isn't easy wherever you are. For CSAs/IMGs, we already KNOW right from the get go you got to put in some extra work to even stand a chance in CaRMs. I was one of those 27% of CSAs that cardiomegaly quoted in not attempting to apply to Canada, I went straight after high school. If Handsome88 channels his bitterness to working hard, persevering, being focused, and smiling along the way, you stand a small but decent chance which CSAs/IMGs know initially already. I found this helpful, through the good and the bad, and now I'm smiling because this has paid off and I'm doing Internal Medicine, my 1st choice, in a very good program close to home Good luck!

 

 

I feel like we're beating a dead horse here. Handsome88 is very bitter and just needs to come to terms with the decision that he chose of his own free will. As a future IMG I'm a bit embarrassed by his posts and I hope his thoughts and comments don't reflect poorly on the rest of us. I think the vast majority of us fully accept that we are not owed anything by the Canadian government and don't expect anything after completing our training.

 

As for the comment about CSAs only applying once or twice: There are always examples of people who have applied 5 years in a row before gaining admission, but I know the majority of students here making judgments got in on their first or second try. I am sure the majority of you would not try 5 years in a row when you could have already been done medical school by that point. As long as anyone who decides to forfeit their chances at home is accepting of the consequences and limitations of attending an international school, then I don't think there is a problem with it. When people start complaining that it's "not fair" then I start to get embarrassed. Life isn't fair, and if you're attending medical school you should be old enough and mature enough to know this by now.

[mavrik13]

its not just residency positions. Many fully trained doctors with fully completed residences are turned down by Canada's boards. and i don't mean they were trained in India, i mean trained in the US or UK and they work in the US or UK yet somehow they are not qualified to be canadian doctors. The canadian medical system is one of the most 'elitist' in the world, your essentially inferior if you weren't trained in canada. and if canada does let you in, they stick you in Northern Ontario or similar area.

 

what do you mean you don;t have a problem with IMGs being shafted? If your in surgery and you find out your doctor was not the best applicant and someone better could be doing your surgery, that doesn't phase you at all? jobs in any field should be given to the best applicant canadian graduate or not. So many businesses fail because they hired family members rather than more qualified people who could actually move the business forward. I do not state that IMG's should be favoured. i speak for equal oppurtunity and fair competition. may the best applicant win.

 

Disagree - If you took the best applicants, you wouldn't have doc's in rural or remote areas (and would have 1000's of docs who want to work in Toronto without jobs). Geographical bias in med school admissions help alleviate this, as does preferentially giving residency spots to CMG's (I don't have stats to back this up, only personal experience, but in my experience the Canadian's that are IMG's are generally from urban areas/those who aren't given geographical preference to a med school, and would like to practice in the same area they are from).

[leviathan]

This is a common misconception. The residents I work with at an Ontario school are actually asking/lobbying for MORE call because they get 1 or 2 nights a month! This is because the residency spots have been increased to the max. It is not like residents are in a classroom where you can just add more seats. Residents need the opportunity to learn their craft before graduating. There are only so many patients. I get the impression that the situation is getting bad... ie residents in some programs graduating with a lot less experience than in years past. I have heard about certain residents at other schools asking for more call as well.

The residents you work with may be saturated in one particular program but there is still probably lots of room for expansion elsewhere. For starters, you could take away all the spots that are being used to train Saudi and other middle east physicians.

 

what do you mean you don;t have a problem with IMGs being shafted? If your in surgery and you find out your doctor was not the best applicant and someone better could be doing your surgery, that doesn't phase you at all?

The problem is that nobody wants a system where you aren't guaranteed to get a job after medical school. As long as you aren't a complete screwup you should be able to get a residency spot.

[EoE]

The residents you work with may be saturated in one particular program but there is still probably lots of room for expansion elsewhere. For starters, you could take away all the spots that are being used to train Saudi and other middle east physicians.

 

I am curious what you mean by this leviathan... Would you mind clarifying? Do you think that certain specialties are saturated (max residents per patient) because there are middle eastern residents in those specialties? Also I am unsure how a program can be expanded by taking away spots from a certain group?

 

I don't think I am giving away much by letting on that the residents I know that have this problem are in peds and family.

[MAELS7ROMX]

Okay I honestly find this statement ridiculous. While I respect the effort and lengths you may be going to; no one is entitled to anything.

Okay, honestly -- I find YOUR statement ridiculous.

 

Do YOU have a sense of entitlement...?

 

You are a CMG, I gather. Chances are you WILL get residency.

 

You did not go to med school with the impression that upon completion you would be cleaning tables or become a housewife.

 

Therefore sir, you have a sense of entitlement since you feel that you are "entitled" to medical practice after you complete a medical education.

 

Since your last few comments evidence an apparent contempt towards IMG's, I say to you that IMG's have just as much right to feel as equally "entitled" as you may feel -- university and country-of-origin notwithstanding.

 

You patronizingly [sic] respect the efforts and lengths they go through but those are empty words and their source stem from the fact that you are not one of them. Walk a mile in any of their shoes and I wonder how superior and smug you would feel then.

 

I've been a Canadian Citizen all my life (born-and-bred) and I happened to have married someone practicing medicine outside my home country. She suffers today because of the bias of CaRMS and the narrow-mindedness of doctors such as yourselves. Her crime: moving to Canada in order to be with her husband.

 

She has done her time in Canada. The language; cold-calling; observerships; attending doctors; attended medical conferences; learned medical record-keeping; has gained tons of MTU's; and now she works as a "Physician's Assistant". In fact, she even treats patients -- all without a licenced physician attending. The only thing she doesn't do is write prescriptions. The doctors she works with have increased her hours because they bill OHIP for her labors and 90% of the time they are not looking over her shoulder. We are going to try CaRMS for the third time come this fall.

 

Now she must suffer the insults of CMG's (of which there is a lot to go around); persevere the competition of CANADIAN Caribbean/Irish/Australian sub-par medical graduates incapable of hacking it in Canada; and be told by people like you that she should not have this "sense of entitlement".

 

You feel that you are entitled to practice medicine because you went to school in Canada.

 

I say that she is entitled to practice medicine because I was likely in Canada and a Canadian Citizen far before you.

 

So let's put your Canadian school against my Canadian citizenship. Who wins? Who is more entitled...?

 

Hmmm...

 

Let's walk a mile, folks, and let's not pretend that we know "how it is" and "what it is" because quite plainly, you don't.

 

[boodog]

Okay, honestly -- I find YOUR statement ridiculous.

 

Do YOU have a sense of entitlement...?

 

You are a CMG, I gather. Chances are you WILL get residency.

 

You did not go to med school with the impression that upon completion you would be cleaning tables or become a housewife.

 

Therefore sir, you have a sense of entitlement since you feel that you are "entitled" to medical practice after you complete a medical education.

 

Since your last few comments evidence an apparent contempt towards IMG's, I say to you that IMG's have just as much right to feel as equally "entitled" as you may feel -- university and country-of-origin notwithstanding.

 

You patronizingly [sic] respect the efforts and lengths they go through but those are empty words and their source stem from the fact that you are not one of them. Walk a mile in any of their shoes and I wonder how superior and smug you would feel then.

 

I've been a Canadian Citizen all my life (born-and-bred) and I happened to have married someone practicing medicine outside my home country. She suffers today because of the bias of CaRMS and the narrow-mindedness of doctors such as yourselves. Her crime: moving to Canada in order to be with her husband.

 

She has done her time in Canada. The language; cold-calling; observerships; attending doctors; attended medical conferences; learned medical record-keeping; has gained tons of MTU's; and now she works as a "Physician's Assistant". In fact, she even treats patients -- all without a licenced physician attending. The only thing she doesn't do is write prescriptions. The doctors she works with have increased her hours because they bill OHIP for her labors and 90% of the time they are not looking over her shoulder. We are going to try CaRMS for the third time come this fall.

 

Now she must suffer the insults of CMG's (of which there is a lot to go around); persevere the competition of CANADIAN Caribbean/Irish/Australian sub-par medical graduates incapable of hacking it in Canada; and be told by people like you that she should not have this "sense of entitlement".

 

You feel that you are entitled to practice medicine because you went to school in Canada.

 

I say that she is entitled to practice medicine because I was likely in Canada and a Canadian Citizen far before you.

 

So let's put your Canadian school against my Canadian citizenship. Who wins? Who is more entitled...?

 

Hmmm...

 

Let's walk a mile, folks, and let's not pretend that we know "how it is" and "what it is" because quite plainly, you don't.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your logic, and quite frankly your attitude. No one is "entitled" to practise medicine; one is only able to fulfill the requirements to be qualified to practise medicine.

 

In no way do I show any disrespect to foreign medical graduates whether Canadian or not. And in no way do I feel "entitled" to practise medicine in Canada.

 

Canada is in no way obligated to let foreign-trained physicians to practise in this country as you seem to think. Each nation is entitled to a set of criteria which they deem necessary to practise medicine.

 

Many of the Canadians who go abroad to train in medicine recognize that it will be a long road ahead of them, and a difficult one. I fully respect them for choosing to fufill their dreams.

 

Moving to Canada expecting a medical practise and a licence to practise medicine here is not realistic, nor should happen. I am not trying to insult people who do this, nor am insinuating that any degree is better than another; but those who move here should expect their credentials to be assessed and expect to undergo further training. Training positions are not to be taken for granted by locals or foreign candidates, they are limited. Not everybody who "does their time" is successful. There are many who are dissapointed each year with Med School application results, Carms results, etc.