IMG positions this year

[Handsome88]

Any Cardiac surgery and Rad Onc positions for IMGs this year? None were offered in previous years for CS, and I heard this year they canceled Rad Onc for IMGs. Will there be any offered in the future, say in 2-3 years?

[cardiomegaly]

Wouldn't count on it..the girl who matched to rad onc at our school said today that they don't have IMG spots because they can fill completely in first round with Canadian students. With the expansions across the country I would say it's very, very unlikely. Cardiac surgery at UofA didn't take anyone this year too.

[Handsome88]

Wouldn't count on it..the girl who matched to rad onc at our school said today that they don't have IMG spots because they can fill completely in first round with Canadian students. With the expansions across the country I would say it's very, very unlikely. Cardiac surgery at UofA didn't take anyone this year too.

 

First iteration IMG spots have nothing to do with whether the spots fill by CMGs or not... IMG positions are only for IMGs to compete for, it is a separate stream.

They should have spots in these specialties regardless of what CMGs want. What if a Canadian IMG wants to come back to Canada and really wants to do Cardiac surgery, with no positions available for IMGs he cannot have a shot at a career in this field, ever. But then again, prejudice against IMGs only grows everyday, they are being shafted from all directions. I don't know why IMGs should settle for the bits and pieces that CaRMS decides to offer them that year, which are clearly not close to being enough in number or diversity.

[boodog]

I don't know why IMGs should settle for the bits and pieces that CaRMS decides to offer them that year, which are clearly not close to being enough in number or diversity.

 

Not sure what your point is here. IMG's don't need to be offered any positions. Usually most of the IMG spots are offered where there is currently insufficient numbers of Canadian doctors.

[Handsome88]

Not sure what your point is here. IMG's don't need to be offered any positions. Usually most of the IMG spots are offered where there is currently insufficient numbers of Canadian doctors.

 

IMGs are Canadians too, they have just as much right as you to specialize and be able to work in Canada. They go through a much tougher route, more stress, and have higher burden of debts. So yes they do need to be offered positions, and should be! This mentality of only requiting IMGs as a back-up pool for doctor shortages is very insulting to IMGs, who may in fact have been studying at a University that is much more superior than most of CMGs believe it or not, they are not tools that should be left on the backburner.

 

PS. there is always shortage of doctors in Canada. Look at the US, they don't say no to IMGs (american or not), they at least give them a chance to compete for positions.

[boodog]

IMGs are Canadians too, they have just as much right as you to specialize and be able to work in Canada. They go through a much tougher route, more stress, and have higher burden of debts. So yes they do need to be offered positions, and should be! This mentality of only requiting IMGs as a back-up pool for doctor shortages is very insulting to IMGs, who may in fact have been studying at a University that is much more superior than most of CMGs believe it or not, they are not tools that should be left on the backburner.

 

PS. there is always shortage of doctors in Canada. Look at the US, they don't say no to IMGs (american or not), they at least give them a chance to compete for positions.

 

Okay I honestly find this statement ridiculous. While I respect the effort and lengths you may be going to; no one is entitled to anything.

[Guest copacetic]

if you are interested in CT, then try for general surgery, then enter CT through a CT fellowship. or do general surgery in the states, then apply for canadian CT fellowship.

[MarathonRunner]

IMGs are Canadians too, they have just as much right as you to specialize and be able to work in Canada. They go through a much tougher route, more stress, and have higher burden of debts. So yes they do need to be offered positions, and should be! This mentality of only requiting IMGs as a back-up pool for doctor shortages is very insulting to IMGs, who may in fact have been studying at a University that is much more superior than most of CMGs believe it or not, they are not tools that should be left on the backburner.

 

PS. there is always shortage of doctors in Canada. Look at the US, they don't say no to IMGs (american or not), they at least give them a chance to compete for positions.

 

But most Canadians who go abroad to study do so because they weren't able to gain admission to a Canadian or American medical school. So, no, they don't have just as much of a right to specialize and work in Canada as Canadians who studied here or in the U.S. If those Canadians studying abroad truly wanted to ensure that they could gain residency and then practice in Canada, they should have either applied more times to Canadian schools (yes, I know it is an incredibly competitive process) and done something to improve their chances of successfully being admitted to a Canadian medical school, or otherwise improved their application so that an American medical school would accept them.

 

Canadian IMGs don't "need" to be offered anything - that's not how the system works. If Canadian IMGs don't want to take what is available to IMGs, then they should have considered that before they went overseas to study. Canadian medical schools are heavily subsidized, so it only makes sense to offer the bulk of residency spots to Canadian medical school graduates.

 

In a perfect world, is this "fair"? Probably not, but then life isn't fair to begin with. If someone isn't willing to accept the fact that, as an IMG, they might not match into a Canadian residency, or a residency of their choice, then they shouldn't go overseas to study.

 

Not everyone can be a doctor, and not everyone should be. And while Canada does have doctor shortages in many areas (notably family medicine), for many specialties, there is no shortage, as evidenced by the fact that people are doing fellowships and graduate degrees to even be able to find a job in some of the extremely competitive specialties.

[Wayward son]

Canadian medical schools are heavily subsidized, so it only makes sense to offer the bulk of residency spots to Canadian medical school graduates.

 

I have heard the above line several times on this board and I don't get it.

 

Canadian tax payers have footed a large chunk of the bill for your medical school education....therefore you deserve to have access to the best residency spots without competition from those trained outside the country?

 

Why not Canadians deserve the best medical doctors so residency spots should go to the best candidates who apply for residency spots whether they were trained in Canada or not? Those who were trained here still would have the advantage of having Canadian taxpayers pay for a lot of their tuition.

 

As someone who hopes to be in medical school here in Canada next year I recognize that I have an advantage and don't want to lose those advantages to IMGs for my own selfish reasons, but for the life of me I can't make sense of the reasoning above.

[Handsome88]

But most Canadians who go abroad to study do so because they weren't able to gain admission to a Canadian or American medical school. So, no, they don't have just as much of a right to specialize and work in Canada as Canadians who studied here or in the U.S. [/Quote]

 

Not able to gain admission doesn't mean they are dumber. Most of them are well qualified to be doctors, some even more qualified than a lot of students who were lucky enough to be accepted in a Canadian medical school. The admission system is not perfect. There are not enough positions in Canada. When 4 students have the exact same stats and qualifications they arbitrarily/subjectively pick one, and the rest go abroad because they are determined people and don't give up on their dreams.

 

Don't tell me that the 3rd year student that luckily made it into Western without completing his undergrad, or the student who got into Northern just because he is "rural" is more qualified than the student studying in a top institution in Western Europe, who has two undergraduate degrees and maintained a 3.8 GPA at UofT (but happened to be in Ontario, the province where a very low percentage get accepted compared to other provinces).

 

And let me tell you this, IMGs are more resourceful, hardworking, ambitious, independent, and determined than most CMGs who may still be living in their parents house and studying for their upcoming test without worry of whether they will be accepted into a scpecialty or not, without having to go the extra mile or work for back-up plans (writing USMLEs, doing electives through out ALL your summers...etc). After going through all that, being technically 'exiled' by the silly admissions system, you don't want them to have the same rights as CMGs? Come on...

 

They should have either applied more times to Canadian schools (yes, I know it is an incredibly competitive process) ... [/Quote]

 

Who said they didn't apply more times? I know people who are 28, did masters hoping to get accepted into Canadian school (big whoop!), and still didn't make it.

 

Bottom line, under the current system of admission to medical school, which is complete BS, IMGs from well-qualified institutions should be treated equally to CMGs. One way to do this is to pick a handful of international schools where most Canadians are studying, and "accredit" those schools so that graduates from there are equal to CMGs. While the current system for IMGs should only apply to non-Canadians, who don't have undergraduate degrees from Canada.

 

Students with ties to Canada and want to go back to their families there should be able to do so, without RoS contracts or any other shackles.

[Wayward son]

Bottom line, under the current system of admission to medical school, which is complete BS, IMGs from well-qualified institutions should be treated equally to CMGs. One way to do this is to pick a handful of international schools where most Canadians are studying, and "accredit" those schools so that graduates from there are equal to CMGs. While the current system for IMGs should only apply to non-Canadians, who don't have undergraduate degrees from Canada.

 

Students with ties to Canada and want to go back to their families there should be able to do so, without RoS contracts or any other shackles.

 

Ok....so applicants who go to medical school in Canada should have no advantage over students who are from Canada but did their medical schooling elsewhere.

 

But...applicants who are not Canadian but went to the same medical school, and did just as well, as a Canadian IMG should not get those same advantages.

 

It seems like everyone is simply advocating whatever system would benefit them personally. I don't have a problem with that, but there has got to be better arguments for all sides.

[leviathan]

They should have spots in these specialties regardless of what CMGs want. What if a Canadian IMG wants to come back to Canada and really wants to do Cardiac surgery, with no positions available for IMGs he cannot have a shot at a career in this field, ever.

I guess it's too bad for that IMG. Nobody told them to go to an international medical school, and nobody told them that they could come back and train to be a cardiothoracic surgeon. An IMG has all the right in the world to train in cardiothoracic surgery in their home country if they have the academic merit. But why you think Canada has some obligation to offer training to the rest of the world's doctors is beyond me.

[Handsome88]

Ok....so applicants who go to medical school in Canada should have no advantage over students who are from Canada but did their medical schooling elsewhere.

 

But...applicants who are not Canadian but went to the same medical school, and did just as well, as a Canadian IMG should not get those same advantages.

 

It seems like everyone is simply advocating whatever system would benefit them personally. I don't have a problem with that, but there has got to be better arguments for all sides.

 

I didn't say non-Canadians should have the same advantages. They will be at the same disadvantage that Canadian-IMGs are in now (only used when there is Dr. shortages). Canadian-IMGs should be = to CMG.

[Handsome88]

I guess it's too bad for that IMG. Nobody told them to go to an international medical school, and nobody told them that they could come back and train to be a cardiothoracic surgeon. An IMG has all the right in the world to train in cardiothoracic surgery in their home country if they have the academic merit. But why you think Canada has some obligation to offer training to the rest of the world's doctors is beyond me.

 

I never said those words! Again, they should only offer the training to CANADIAN IMGs, not "the rest of the world's doctors".

[Wayward son]

I guess it's too bad for that IMG. Nobody told them to go to an international medical school, and nobody told them that they could come back and train to be a cardiothoracic surgeon.

 

I think that anyone who has considered leaving the country has been told that returning would be extremely difficult. If I knew that I could return easily and on equal footing after going to a caribbean school then I wouldn't have damn near killed myself the last couple years making myself competitive in Ontario.

 

If I do end up leaving the country for medical school, which is a possibility, I will understand the risks.

[mavrik13]

snip

 

It just sounds like you are bitter. The number of medical school seats is directly influenced by the number of residency spots available in Canada. One of the major reasons we don't have more undergrad med spots is that there isn't the capacity to train them at the residency level.

 

If you or anyone else wants to bypass the Canadian undergrad medical system, you are welcome to, but you should do so fully knowing your opportunities to train in Canada are limited. Canadian or not, CMG spots should first go to those who did their undergrad in Canada, as the number of these spots are limited and those who went through the normal route in Canafa should have first pick.

[Handsome88]

I think that anyone who has considered leaving the country has been told that returning would be extremely difficult. If I knew that I could return easily and on equal footing after going to a caribbean school then I wouldn't have damn near killed myself the last couple years making myself competitive in Ontario.

 

Put yourself in their shoes. Many of these people have also killed themselves making themselves competitive yet found themselves having to go study abroad. You will not return "easily and on equal footing" without having equal academic merit as CMGs, that is where objective admission process comes into play (Canadian Boards, grades...etc). Someone who has a 410 in Canadian boards but is from Carib is still >>>> than a CMG who has a 300.

[Handsome88]

It just sounds like you are bitter. The number of medical school seats is directly influenced by the number of residency spots available in Canada. One of the major reasons we don't have more undergrad med spots is that there isn't the capacity to train them at the residency level.

 

If you or anyone else wants to bypass the Canadian undergrad medical system, you are welcome to, but you should do so fully knowing your opportunities to train in Canada are limited. Canadian or not, CMG spots should first go to those who did their undergrad in Canada, as the number of these spots are limited and those who went through the normal route in Canafa should have first pick.

 

I think I already established that getting into a Canadian undergrad degree doesn't mean you are better academically as the # of positions available are not enough. Therefore, the only way is to use positions outside of Canada to train these well-qualified Canadians. After using these "acredited" international positions to train these Canadians, there should be a way for them to come back. How do we decide who gets to be a CT? Solely on Board scores and the rest of their CaRMS application, NOT whether they are CMGs or IMGs.

[Wayward son]

Put yourself in their shoes. Many of these people have also killed themselves making themselves competitive yet found themselves having to go study abroad. You will not return "easily and on equal footing" without having equal academic merit as CMGs, that is where objective admission process comes into play (Canadian Boards, grades...etc). Someone who has a 410 in Canadian boards but is from Carib is still >>>> than a CMG who has a 300.

 

I can definitely put myself in their shoes and don't doubt their academic merit.

 

Here is my problem though:

 

You are advocating that a 410 Canadian IMG is >>> than a 300 CMG.

 

But you are not advocating that a 410 non Canadian IMG is >>> than a 350 Canadian IMG is >>> than a 300 CMG.

 

So you are not making a case based on academic merit but one based on Canadian citizenship. So if we can, as you advocate, draw the line based not on merit, but on Canadian citizen ship, then why not instead just continue to base it on Canadians who went to medical school in Canada which was designed and financed as a system to produce the number of graduates to fill the CMG residency spots?

[Handsome88]

I can definitely put myself in their shoes and don't doubt their academic merit.

 

Here is my problem though:

 

You are advocating that a 410 Canadian IMG is >>> than a 300 CMG.

 

But you are not advocating that a 410 non Canadian IMG is >>> than a 350 Canadian IMG is >>> than a 300 CMG.

 

So you are not making a case based on academic merit but one based on Canadian citizenship. So if we can draw the line based on Canadian citizen ship, then why not continue to base it on Canadians who went to medical school in Canada which was designed and financed as a system to produce the number of graduates to fill the CMG residency spots?

 

Because as levathian said above, Canada shouldn't go around training the world's doctors, it is only obligated to train their Canadian doctors. Plus, Canadians have the right to go back to Canada, and under the charter or rights, they are entitled to work and live anywhere they want (RoS contracts go against that).

 

So, Canadian citizenship should be a must (as it is now) to apply to CaRMS.

 

The only change should be is for the rest of the application to be based on merit, one stream, no canadian IMG vs canadian CMG streams.

 

----

 

Now, IF Canada has a shortage of Dr's, then they can use non-Canadians (like US does). And they can do so by implementing the current system that is used on canadian IMGs (having RoS, limited to certain specialties where there is shortage)

[leviathan]

I never said those words! Again, they should only offer the training to CANADIAN IMGs, not "the rest of the world's doctors".

I think you're missing the big picture here. It doesn't matter what nationality you are; if you trained at an international medical school, then you should only be entitled to residency training in the country where you trained. Canada is not responsible to provide residency spots for graduates of every medical school in the world and just because you are Canadian does not change that. If you are Canadian and want to do residency in Canada, you should apply for medical school in Canada. If you are Canadian and do medical school in for example Australia, you should only expect entitlement to do residency in Australia.

[Handsome88]

I think you're missing the big picture here. It doesn't matter what nationality you are; if you trained at an international medical school, then you should only be entitled to residency training in the country where you trained. Canada is not responsible to provide residency spots for graduates of every medical school in the world and just because you are Canadian does not change that. If you are Canadian and want to do residency in Canada, you should apply for medical school in Canada. If you are Canadian and do medical school in for example Australia, you should only expect entitlement to do residency in Australia.

 

Yes, I wish that was true though. No country will guarantee you any training, because guess what...the Irish/Aussie will first take Irish/Aussie grads even if they graduated from Ukrain or Italy (unlike Canada). And even if they do, Canada will not readily take you back after you were trained outside (even if you were Canadian)! So the only way is to train in Canada.

 

So you are bringing up another possible solution to the IMG problem (and at the same time the shortage of Drs). Make it easier for Canadians trained outside to work in Canada!

 

Anyways, I know this will only happen in a 'perfect world' but I'm also just venting off my frustration...

[entkeener]

Put yourself in their shoes. Many of these people have also killed themselves making themselves competitive yet found themselves having to go study abroad. You will not return "easily and on equal footing" without having equal academic merit as CMGs, that is where objective admission process comes into play (Canadian Boards, grades...etc). Someone who has a 410 in Canadian boards but is from Carib is still >>>> than a CMG who has a 300.

 

I hate to break it to you, but the Canadian boards (at least LMCC part 1) is a bloody joke. Quoting a staff physician at my institution "Nobody has regretted studying too little for the LMCC Part 1."

[Wayward son]

Plus, Canadians have the right to go back to Canada, and under the charter or rights, they are entitled to work and live anywhere they want (RoS contracts go against that).

 

Ummm...your charter rights are not being violated here. You still have the right to work and live anywhere in the country you want. That doesn't mean that you have a charter right to work the job and specialty you want to work where you want to work it. Several years ago I was offered a job which would have required me to work in a specific location for a specific period of time. That did not violate my rights because I had every right to not accept the job. Many jobs do this - the OPP for example.

 

As for Canadian IMGs, my understanding is that there are about 1/3 as many Canadian medical students studying outside the country as there are inside the country. That is more students than residency spots and putting Canadian IMGs on equality with CMGs would presumably increase that number of medical students going to universities outside the country significantly. That would take a lot of pressure off governments in Canada from training more medical students - in fact I would imagine that it would lead to pressure to cut the number of students being trained at Canadian medical schools back to the early 90s enrollment numbers. I have my doubts that would be good policy.

 

Now of course the current system is not fair to people like you, but as we all know it is also not fair to people who are well qualified but didn't happen to escape from a womb on Canadian soil. However, I don't see why the system must be, or could be, fair to everyone and I have to presume you either knew or had access to the information regarding the difficulties of getting residency spots back in Canada before you left. It was decided that people trained in Canada should get priority and this allows governments and universities to work together to achieve the needs of the country based on medical student numbers and residency numbers.

[HBP]

Handsome88... you're completely wrong. There is absolutely no reason for Canada to consider a CMG and a Canadian IMG in the same manner. All the provincial schools set quotas based on how many residency positions they can fill. They obviously have no control over C-IMG's. That's why it's so much easier to go to an international school...