Osama Bin Laden Is Dead!!

[juice]

Don't be naive, there's a reason the americans didn't tell the pakistanis about the operation until it was over. There's a reason Bin laden was staying like 10 mins from a military base. If pakistan wanted to get him, it would take them less than 24 hours anytime. Pakistan is of little help and it's political interests are in supporting the terrorist organization (because of the afghanistan/india/china situation they got going on).

 

And there's a reason the US are releasing friendly statements about pakistan (note: AFTER successfully completing a mission without much pakistan involvement). It's because it would become near impossible for them to stay there if the pakistani public and american public both started opposing their stay there.

 

What a terrible situation.

 

In addition to all of this, there were supposedly almost no celebrations in pakistan or saudi arabia about this. In fact, many people are mourning. Wow.

 

I hope something happens about pakistan because it's on its way to becoming the next afghanistan.

 

---

If you still have doubts over what I say, wikipedia "ISI" (pakistan's FBI). My head spins when I see some of the stuff there.

[123coco]

I think we should thank the CIA and the CT units that killed him.

I wouldn't think Obama had anything to do with this.

 

Why does Obama always get the short end of things? If the operation was a total flop, people would blame Obama for his inability to direct military strategies. Yet, when all goes according to plan people don't want to give the man some credit? I definitely agree that this mission was a success due to the concerted effort of multiple parties, nevertheless, once intelligence is provided, the president and his advisors must decide how best to proceed. That being said, Obama and his advisors made the right decision and deserve some credit!

 

I do, however, think it would have been more ethical if they atleast attempted to capture Osama alive. I mean if the U.S truly believes in their justice system can we not assume that justice would have prevailed in the court system? I do not see how we can possibly hope to achieve peace through acts of violence. Violence only breeds more violence.

[summerlove7]

i definitely agree with you. obama deserves credit- he made the final decision and gave the green signal for the operation to take place, upon making the decision that they had accurate enough information regarding bin laden's location.

 

also, parading around bin laden's body would incite more terror and violence. i'm glad they did what they could with his body, without making a show of it.

 

keeping him alive had its advantages, but think of all his supporters coming up with reckless plans to save him from imprisonment, especially in america. he is better off dead.

[NLengr]

I do, however, think it would have been more ethical if they atleast attempted to capture Osama alive. I mean if the U.S truly believes in their justice system can we not assume that justice would have prevailed in the court system? I do not see how we can possibly hope to achieve peace through acts of violence. Violence only breeds more violence.

 

I am sure there was an order to take him alive if he surrendered. But let's be honest, this guy was gonna go down fighting. Martyrdom and all that.

 

Obama deserves credit for making a very very gutsy decision. It was not easy I'm sure, and the political and international consequences of failure were huge.

[NLengr]

Actually, you should probably go back and watch Obama's speech again because he explicitly stated that Pakistani intelligence cooperated with the CIA in the raid and were of assistance for some time. Also he said that he had spoken to the Pakistani president just that night to confirm all the information and circumstances of the raid.

 

 

Cheers

 

There is a vague reference to how working with Pakistan helped develop the intelligence that led to the raid. That's nothing but fluff put in there for political purposes. The military action and the planning/intelligence were unilateral. Obama didn't even tell Pakistan what was happening until The strike force was out of Pakistani airspace.

 

It would be foolish to think Pakistan had any knowledge of this. The Pakistani govt. and military/intelligience communities are notoriously have many ties to Al Queda. To let them know about the knowledge or the plan would apathy certainly have comprised the mission.

[quackster]

I am sure there was an order to take him alive if he surrendered. But let's be honest, this guy was gonna go down fighting. Martyrdom and all that.

 

Obama deserves credit for making a very very gutsy decision. It was not easy I'm sure, and the political and international consequences of failure were huge.

 

He's such a martyr that he hid behind the women in the house to avoid being shot. I thought that a martyr willingly suffers death?

[Chaplin]

There is a vague reference to how working with Pakistan helped develop the intelligence that led to the raid. That's nothing but fluff put in there for political purposes. The military action and the planning/intelligence were unilateral. Obama didn't even tell Pakistan what was happening until The strike force was out of Pakistani airspace.

 

It would be foolish to think Pakistan had any knowledge of this. The Pakistani govt. and military/intelligience communities are notoriously have many ties to Al Queda. To let them know about the knowledge or the plan would apathy certainly have comprised the mission.

 

Have you honestly ever visited Abottabad or let alone Pakistan? Have you ever heard of PMA Kakul? Pakistan isn't comparable to Afghanistan or Iraq with a non existent army, no radar equipment or no intelligence network that an intruder can enter the airspace whenever he wants and get out that easily undetected. Since you and juice are lacking in knowledge about this ill explain this a bit.

 

As far as Pakistani government not knowing anything about the operation that is true. The corrupt incapable government dosn't even know what is happening outside their houses until it airs on the news, they only care about their bank balance. But about pakistani military or intelligence not knowing about this, thats a joke. Osama's location in Abottabad is about a 10 minute walk from Pakistan Military Academy Kakul. Kakul is the chief training ground for military cadets and is close to the facilities which make missiles. So obviously being one of the most sensitive locations it is highly protected. Secondly abbotabad lies about 60 km away from the federal capital Islamabad. Now to think that a helicopter with all the noise it makes ( please dont tell me the US Navy has silent helicopters) can fly all the way from Durand line into Kakul without Pakistan not knowing about it is extremely foolish. Not only did Pakistan know about about this operation it also knew about the presence of CIA operatives in the area.

Here is one news being reported by the local people in the neighborhood:- When the 2 US helicopters landed, one of them due to technical failure crash landed, the area was cordoned off by pak military and then the ground operation proceeded. Now, did the contingent of troops arriving in the two helicopters then stuff themselves into the other remaining one with his body and escape? Obviously not.

The second story is that the picture released of Bin Laden is that of another Saudi man and it had been floating for some time on the internet and this stunt is being used as a leverage for Obama's election campaign and to provide some sense of accomplishment to the American people when the troops pull out of Afghanistan. It doesn't make sense to dispose off the body of the most wanted man in the world without making a video or trophy out of it like was did with Saddam Hussein's sons.

The reason pak military could not get involved in this is because there would be a strong retaliation or intention of retaliation due to this action against Americans and since Americans are secure the terrorist attacks will then be targeted at other soft targets: the Pakistani people. So it is to their advantage to keep matters ambiguous. Al-Qaeda and Taliban are different things. Al-Qaeda is the terrorist network made by Bin Laden with global outreach. Taliban is a faction of the people of afghanistan, the Pushtuns limited to Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Central Asian muslim states. Not only did the Pakistani intelligence have ties with the Taliban, but so did the Americans. They were their biggest supporters when it was their purpose to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan, but as is the american way, a friend today after being used is the enemy tomorrow. A poster above correctly mentioned that the ties with Afghani Taliban are important for to maintain a strategic balance in the area after the Americans leave.

As for the constant double game blame which Pakistan is accused of. This accusation is an insult to the 30000 civilians which have been killed in daily 911's happening in Pakistan since this war began to keep people in the west safe. And instead of appreciation we get nothing but ridicule and the 'Do more" accusation by supposed friends who for their own part have done even less . Way to go.

[md-equation]

Don't be naive, there's a reason the americans didn't tell the pakistanis about the operation until it was over. There's a reason Bin laden was staying like 10 mins from a military base. If pakistan wanted to get him, it would take them less than 24 hours anytime. Pakistan is of little help and it's political interests are in supporting the terrorist organization (because of the afghanistan/india/china situation they got going on).

 

And there's a reason the US are releasing friendly statements about pakistan (note: AFTER successfully completing a mission without much pakistan involvement). It's because it would become near impossible for them to stay there if the pakistani public and american public both started opposing their stay there.

 

What a terrible situation.

 

In addition to all of this, there were supposedly almost no celebrations in pakistan or saudi arabia about this. In fact, many people are mourning. Wow.

 

I hope something happens about pakistan because it's on its way to becoming the next afghanistan.

 

---

If you still have doubts over what I say, wikipedia "ISI" (pakistan's FBI). My head spins when I see some of the stuff there.

 

. The Pakistani govt. and military/intelligience communities are notoriously have many ties to Al Queda. To let them know about the knowledge or the plan would apathy certainly have comprised the mission.

 

+1

 

There is evidence that in the past, the pakistani ISI has been involved in such terrorist activities. For example, India had obtained evidence of some sort of military involvement in the mumbai attacks back in November. I'm not stating that they are involved, rather just stating that evidence in the past may dictate otherwise. It definately raises some eyebrows in the international realm. I find it really strange how the biggest house in the area, were many retired military generals, governmental officials had no idea of suspicious activity. The problem is that we still don't understand how things work. Alot of our information is coming for media sources, and I think everyone can agree with me here is that different media sources will report different stories. However, I believe as CNN stated, this really strains the relationship between the U.S and Pakistan. It will be very interesting how this plays out in the next few days. I personally think the way U.S did things with his body, may not sit well with many muslim people. For example, Burying him at sea. Hopefully, all of this ends the tension that was there before, rather than intensify the situation.

[Leon]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110502/ts_yblog_thelookout/after-bin-laden-death-middle-school-teacher-finally-free-to-shave-beard

[NLengr]

As for the constant double game blame which Pakistan is accused of. This accusation is an insult to the 30000 civilians which have been killed in daily 911's happening in Pakistan since this war began to keep people in the west safe. And instead of appreciation we get nothing but ridicule and the 'Do more" accusation by supposed friends who for their own part have done even less . Way to go.

 

They are accused of it constantly because it's the reality of the situation. There are elements in the Pakistani govt. and military/intelligence structures that have sympathies or have supported al-Queda/the Taliban for years. It's been documented in literally thousands of reports, scholarly articles and books.

 

Unless you are gonna argue that nobody in the Pakistani military or intelligence communities thought to investigate what a fortified three story mansion/compound that was far bigger than surrounding structures was doing 1000 meters from Pakistan's premier military academy.

 

I appreciate that it's a very difficult balancing act for the Pakistani govt to maintain given the reality of their domestic situation, but never the less, they do try to play both sides in order to ensure their own survival.

[apache]

dumb (which is a paradox) question, why should pakistan answer to anyone?

 

the us supported terrorism when they attempted to frame a coup on chavez on the mid 2000's costing numerous lives.

 

they've also supported batisa in cuba, got rid of noriega in panama, put in pinochet in chile in the interests of national enterprise. this isn't even the tip of the iceberg in south america, one of the south american cia directors of the time is on the record as saying that the main priority in intervening with (elected or non-elected) governments is the maintenance of us interests and belittled interviewers for lack of common sense when they questioned him about democracy and loss of life, even denying that a significant number of people died under general pinochet's rule.

 

they supported the shaw in iran until it was expedient and then eliminated him to leave the iranian people to khomeini and company, who they now chastise over human rights, only two years ago, ghadaffi was an ally, despite 40 years of crime of against humanity. mubarek was similar, a long time ally to israel and valuable partner in maintaining hegemony in the middle east.

 

saudi arabia, well they're not that bad, they fund anti-israeli forces, hamas, hezbolah and all these "bad" groups.... but they're cool, they sell us our oil at a good price.

 

you know what, i'm not even muslim and i can see why someone would defend a group like a group like al-queda, it must take quite the perverse common enemy to make bedfellows of chavez and ahmadinajad. why should pakistan even have to explain their actions? i suppose they don't have the american option of shutting up the media and calling anyone who would criticize their actions anti-freedom or democracy, as if any association with the united states stengthens a countries ties to the goal of building a global democrazy

 

i'm not trying to belittle the lives lost at 9/11, but for the u.s. to intervene in any democratic or undemocratic government they find unacceptable for a period of 50 years is beyond arrogant and the lost of life in this imperialistic endeavours are celebrated with medals.

 

how is bin laden any different than bush senior? who, i should mention, just got the presidential medal of freedom, the highest civilian honor this year for service to america, at least bin laden had the guts to fight in armed combat instead of sending marginalized citizens to kill south americans on his behalf.

[mdDave]

dumb (which is a paradox) question, why should pakistan answer to anyone?

 

the us supported terrorism when they attempted to frame a coup on chavez on the mid 2000's costing numerous lives.

 

they've also supported batisa in cuba, got rid of noriega in panama, put in pinochet in chile in the interests of national enterprise. this isn't even the tip of the iceberg in south america, one of the south american cia directors of the time is on the record as saying that the main priority in intervening with (elected or non-elected) governments is the maintenance of us interests and belittled interviewers for lack of common sense when they questioned him about democracy and loss of life, even denying that a significant number of people died under general pinochet's rule.

 

they supported the shaw in iran until it was expedient and then eliminated him to leave the iranian people to khomeini and company, who they now chastise over human rights, only two years ago, ghadaffi was an ally, despite 40 years of crime of against humanity. mubarek was similar, a long time ally to israel and valuable partner in maintaining hegemony in the middle east.

 

saudi arabia, well they're not that bad, they fund anti-israeli forces, hamas, hezbolah and all these "bad" groups.... but they're cool, they sell us our oil at a good price.

 

you know what, i'm not even muslim and i can see why someone would defend a group like a group like al-queda, it must take quite the perverse common enemy to make bedfellows of chavez and ahmadinajad. why should pakistan even have to explain their actions? i suppose they don't have the american option of shutting up the media and calling anyone who would criticize their actions anti-freedom or democracy, as if any association with the united states stengthens a countries ties to the goal of building a global democrazy

 

i'm not trying to belittle the lives lost at 9/11, but for the u.s. to intervene in any democratic or undemocratic government they find unacceptable for a period of 50 years is beyond arrogant and the lost of life in this imperialistic endeavours are celebrated with medals.

 

how is bin laden any different than bush senior? who, i should mention, just got the presidential medal of freedom, the highest civilian honor this year for service to america, at least bin laden had the guts to fight in armed combat instead of sending marginalized citizens to kill south americans on his behalf.

 

Pak has to explain their actions if they want to keep getting millions of dollars form the US. Pretty simple. They claim to be our ally but seem to be harboring terrorists... I think that needs an explanation, what's so hard to understand about that?

We live in a nationalist world. We have countries. These countries look after their own interests. That's the way it always has been and will be.

Yeah the U.S supported the taliban when they fought the soviet union, so what? The soviet union was a much bigger threat than the taliban will ever be to the US so that was a good call.

[apache]

lol, sorry, tone doesn't come across in posts, i was just trying to point out that in the end, might is right, there is no wrong and right that we can delineate, and anyone who claims to have the moral high ground over someone else just hasn't tasted power yet

 

i just posted that because i've often replied to patriotic westerners claims that bin laden was an evil man with the response that if other nations had the military capabilities of the united states, bin laden wouldn't fly a plane into the world trade centres, a country harbouring his beliefs would just wage a war against us, bin laden is guilty of many atrocities, but for the average person to hold him in moral contempt is always a bit humorous and i'm tired of defending his actions as legitimate in the context of us oppression. i would accept an individual judgement or wrongdoing if one was willing to admit their own (perceived) faults, but that isn't often the case. i guess i'm just ranting about my frustration at the majority of people who i happen to disagree with because i unlearned what i was taught throughout my life

 

 

Wow a Noam Chomsky 101 condensed version.

Everything you just stated is true, and there is a lot more that you probably didn’t include for brevity. In fact, you could dedicate an entire thread to the misdeeds of the “evil empire” and even if everyone pitched in, you might still miss a few. At the end of the day Pakistan has to answer to the US b/c they are the biggest meanest kid on the block and all the moralising in the world isn’t going to change that. There is a big difference between what is right and what is. That doesn’t mean I am saying we should abandon the pursuit of a better world. However, the present rules of the game are might is right and your rant is equivocal to complaining about crocodiles who unfairly ambush prey at watering holes. The world is full of death and misery and I believe everyone has a responsibility to try and reduce that. If Pakistan doesn’t do some explaining then there will be more pain and misery, regardless of who is right or what is right (or in reference to your post: who is wrong), that is the way it is until we grow up as a species.

[NLengr]

Pak has to explain their actions if they want to keep getting millions of dollars form the US. Pretty simple.

 

Bingo.

 

You don't get free money. You certainly don't get free money if it looks like you are playing the donor for a fool. Given US public opinion, that's the position Pakistan now finds itself in, rightly or wrongly.

[kylamonkey]

I just have to agree with what muse is saying and I will add something, but first please let me state that I'm not supporting Bin Laden by saying this, or excusing him.

 

Have you ever actually listened to his videos or other recordings? He does not sound like a madman. He sounds like a reasonable person opposed to the way the US interjects itself into world affairs. I was shocked when I first really listened to what he was saying. For sure, there is the occaisional moment of crazy, but he sounds a lot more reasonable than the media makes him out to be. I'll find a link and post it in an edit.

 

The US has handled itself really well in this scenario. I think Obama is to be commended for the diplomatic way he has acted and how the security council has conducted itself.

 

As an ardent follower of US politics, I am kind of looking forward to the "deathers" coming out of the woodwork. It's bound to be entertaining.

 

edit:

Here is an excerpt from a BinLaden interview.

They rip us of our wealth and of our resources and of our oil. Our religion is under attack. They kill and murder our brothers. They compromise our honor and our dignity and dare we utter a single word of protest against the injustice, we are called terrorists. This is compounded injustice. And the United Nations insistence to convict the victims and support the aggressors constitutes a serious precedence which shows the extent of injustice that has been allowed to take root in this land.

You can look up other interviews fairly easily.

 

Mods- if you want to remove/edit my post because it may start another middle east politics issue on this board, you can do so.

[123coco]

Bingo.

 

You don't get free money. You certainly don't get free money if it looks like you are playing the donor for a fool. Given US public opinion, that's the position Pakistan now finds itself in, rightly or wrongly.

 

There's no free money...it's all multilateral loans. Under such conditions, the net transfer of money tends to be from recipient to donor and not the other way around. As you all know the U.S is a super power and yields a lot of authority in the U.N. Had Pakistan been uncooperative, the U.S could have easily labeled Pakistan as a terrorist state and placed some form of trade sanction on them. Such course of action would cripple the Pakistanian economy. Nevertheless, the U.S-Pakistan relationship is extremely delicate as they are both mutually dependent one another (to some degree).

 

just my take

[colbert2011]

The death of Osama is undoubtedly good news. It also further weakens the case for military intervention in Afghanistan. If things go well, the US is now in the position to declare victory, pack-up and hand back the reigns of power to the Taliban, thus affording some measure of respite to Pakistan for its flawed "strategic depth" policy against neighbouring India.

 

The current US administration unlike the previous one, has realized that securing the homeland is best accomplished by tactical strikes, counter intelligence operations as opposed to the laborious, expensive task of nation-building which is bankrupting the US and tarnishing its image at home and abroad.

 

The US/Pakistan relationship has always been bewildering and thorny. By most accounts, Pakistan has the fifth largest nuclear arsenal in the world and is rapidly proliferating. It's also the sixth most populous country on the planet, and (rightly or wrongly) seething with anti-Americanism. So direct, retaliatory action is out of the question. Unlike Iraq, Pakistan actually have WMDs:P

 

The capture of Osama does leave difficult question for Pakistan. There is clearly duplicity prevalent within the state, and Osama had to be protected by some element of the state's security apparatus. Of course, the myth of a "unified" Pakistani nation with discrete geographical borders, a centralized government is wholly untrue. The military/civilian administration/ISI/tribal structures all represent disparate factions often at odds with each other.

 

Obama's handling the situation as best he can: re-iterating support for Pakistan while playing down triumphalist inclinations. Hopefully the US can use this opportunity to goad Pakistan into adopting a coherent policy vis-a-vis terrorism, handing over terror suspects (who have inflicted heavy casualties against the Pak military and civilizations), and strengthen democratic governance. In the past, economic sanctions have played into the hands of radical forces, so US aid (with more strings attached) is likely to continue for the foreseeable future. The alternative, of a further destabilized Pakistan is unpalatable even for the most jingoistic in Washington/Islamabad.

[NLengr]

Since someone mentioned the lack of US stealth helicopters, I'm gonna post this:

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/986690--u-s-helicopter-used-in-bin-laden-raid-grips-aviation-world?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

This, combined with nape of the earth flying, goes a long way to explaining how the raid was able to infiltrate Pakistani airspace without radar detention.

 

In fact, if you read some of the reports/statements out of Pakistan, they say that they only learned of the raid once the helicopters were in position for a few minutes and someone called it into the police/military. F-16's were scrambled at that point, but by the time they were in a position to intercept, the raid was over, Obama had called the Pakistani govt. and the helicopters were back in Afghan airspace.

[NLengr]

And before someone says, well that won't cover audible noise reduction:

 

 

And this is technology that's being developed for the public.